PDA

View Full Version : Harvey: Parker takes an element with him



duncan228
03-07-2010, 10:51 PM
Parker takes an element with him (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Parker_takes_an_element_with_him.html)
Buck Harvey

CLEVELAND — Before he lost his point guard, as well as what he'd patched together, Gregg Popovich was open to humor.

Asked about finally settling on a rotation that seemed to work, Popovich reacted with mock astonishment Saturday night. “We have a rotation?” he said.

A few hours later in Memphis, his mood had changed.

“Deflating,” is the word he chose.

Popovich's ever-altering personality was understandable this night, unlike some of the other nights. His players, especially the new ones, have wondered about both his emotional balance and his regular-season strategy.

His 20 different starting lineups didn't always make much sense, with the Spurs sometimes playing too small and sometimes not letting anything settle.

Sometimes he's acted bored, too. Why not bench Tim Duncan for a first quarter?

But he's only been more extreme this season. Over the years, Popovich has often created chaos in order to establish order and build a team his way.

His way can be distinctive. If he lives by plus/minus equations, he doesn't reveal that. He instead talks in terms of what he sees and intangibles he believes in.

This year's example is Keith Bogans, an extra picked up just before training camp. He surely wouldn't start for the Grizzlies, and he likely wouldn't be in their rotation. There's some question whether he would make their roster.

But Bogans took on Rudy Gay on Saturday, just as he will LeBron James tonight if James is healthy enough to play. And Popovich goes this far in describing Bogans.

“He's really the centerpiece of the whole thing,” Popovich said.

Centerpiece?

“It sounds strange,” Popovich said. “You've got Timmy out there, and Tony and Manu — to say he's the centerpiece. By that I mean ... I like to have a starter who doesn't need the ball, who gives us a defensive identity ... somebody I can say, ‘Go play him. Go do your best to stop him.' For us, that's been our style for 12 years.”

“The centerpiece” was effective in Memphis. Bogans muscled Gay, and he fit with those around him. He fit, for example, next to Parker.

Bogans doesn't need the ball, and Parker does, so they match. It's the same reason Popovich now brings Richard Jefferson and DeJuan Blair off the bench to play with Manu Ginobili.

Ginobili creates for both. Curiously, the coaches don't see Ginobili and Duncan as perfect complements. Blair rolls to the basket for Ginobili's passes better than Duncan.

So Popovich has been shuffling lineups. And if it seemed to take too long, then understand; he had to do some tweaking, too.

Even to Parker, who Popovich has coached longer than anyone on this team outside of Duncan. Earlier in the season, Popovich thought Parker was disengaged.

So Saturday, Popovich once blistered Parker in a timeout, and once he laughed with him during a dead-ball moment. Late in the first half, after a Duncan score, Parker pumped a fist and looked, well, engaged.

With 30 seconds left in the first half, Parker scored what might have been the final points of his season. The Spurs immediately pressured the Grizzlies point guard into a turnover, resulting in a Jefferson breakaway basket to end the half.

At that moment, they were playing closer to how they played in the past. There was defense and some chemistry, and the Spurs were heading to a four-game winning streak. Then, Popovich's pregame sarcasm could have been repeated.

They have a rotation?

Maybe it was never going to be enough to move up in the standings or win a playoff series. Maybe, too, there are ways to get around not having Parker for more than a month.

After all, injuries weren't going to let Parker be this season what he was here, in Cleveland, three years ago. Then, he was the Finals MVP.

But, today, one thing is clear. Popovich thought he had found something he liked, something he could build upon, something that made sense to him.

And now, along with Parker, that's gone.

TIMMYD!
03-07-2010, 10:54 PM
Parker takes an element with him (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Parker_takes_an_element_with_him.html)
Buck Harvey

“He's really the centerpiece of the whole thing,” Popovich said.

Centerpiece?

“It sounds strange,” Popovich said. “You've got Timmy out there, and Tony and Manu — to say he's the centerpiece. By that I mean ... I like to have a starter who doesn't need the ball, who gives us a defensive identity ... somebody I can say, ‘Go play him. Go do your best to stop him.' For us, that's been our style for 12 years.”



This can't be too good, it only means a whole lot more Bogans while TP is out.

ElNono
03-07-2010, 10:58 PM
This year's example is Keith Bogans, an extra picked up just before training camp. He surely wouldn't start for the Grizzlies, and he likely wouldn't be in their rotation. There's some question whether he would make their roster.

But Bogans took on Rudy Gay on Saturday, just as he will LeBron James tonight if James is healthy enough to play. And Popovich goes this far in describing Bogans.

“He's really the centerpiece of the whole thing,” Popovich said.

Centerpiece?

“It sounds strange,” Popovich said. “You've got Timmy out there, and Tony and Manu — to say he's the centerpiece. By that I mean ... I like to have a starter who doesn't need the ball, who gives us a defensive identity ... somebody I can say, ‘Go play him. Go do your best to stop him.' For us, that's been our style for 12 years.”


http://www.offresonance.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/double-facepalm.jpg

vander
03-07-2010, 11:06 PM
:lmao

I sure hope Pop was just kidding around about the Bogans bit

L.I.T
03-07-2010, 11:07 PM
I'm...disturbed.

ducks
03-07-2010, 11:08 PM
if bogans holds james to 10 points
people will be sucking his balls tomorrow

ElNono
03-07-2010, 11:12 PM
if bogans holds james to 10 points
people will be sucking his balls tomorrow

I can't even be bothered to look up who was the last player to hold Lebron to 10 points... I don't even think that ever happened... not even when we had Bowen and we swept them...

alchemist
03-07-2010, 11:13 PM
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

trust in Pop

objective
03-07-2010, 11:22 PM
“He's really the centerpiece of the whole thing,” Popovich said.

holy carp!

mingus
03-07-2010, 11:34 PM
the thing is you can have three centerpieces, just like you can have three backbones, right?

:depressed

LMAO

Keith "Backbone" Bogans.

mingus
03-07-2010, 11:35 PM
they need to let Manu walk and resign Bogans.

Ice009
03-07-2010, 11:43 PM
FUCK ME. Bogans the centerpiece of the whole thing.

Pop is crazy.

Wow. Did anyone wish Bogans had the broken finger a few games ago instead of Parker. I don't for either player, but if Pop is going to be this silly I don't know what to say.

Pop is fucking us over this season.

Amuseddaysleeper
03-07-2010, 11:45 PM
if bogans holds james to 10 points
people will be sucking his balls tomorrow

Tell you what, if Bogans holds Lebron to 10 points in a single quarter, I will suck his balls

mingus
03-07-2010, 11:49 PM
Tell you what, if Bogans holds Lebron to 10 points in a single quarter, I will suck his balls

youll be able to suck his balls once Pop's done sucking them, which may be never.

Obstructed_View
03-07-2010, 11:58 PM
So maybe with Parker out there's no reason to play Bogans.

Yeah, I know. I crack myself up sometimes. :lol

jag
03-07-2010, 11:59 PM
It could be worse. At least Keith isnt Jacque Vaughn.

duhoh
03-08-2010, 01:26 AM
It could be worse. At least Keith isnt Jacque Vaughn.

:toast

lurker23
03-08-2010, 01:31 AM
Very interesting article. A few of the things I especially liked:

Buck Harvey writing about Pop's personality, especially this bit:

His players, especially the new ones, have wondered about both his emotional balance and his regular-season strategy.

His 20 different starting lineups didn't always make much sense, with the Spurs sometimes playing too small and sometimes not letting anything settle.
...

But he's only been more extreme this season. Over the years, Popovich has often created chaos in order to establish order and build a team his way.

His way can be distinctive. If he lives by plus/minus equations, he doesn't reveal that. He instead talks in terms of what he sees and intangibles he believes in.

Basically acknowledging what many fans have been screaming all year about Pop's odd and mostly ineffective tinkering.

However, some of that may have been worth it if Pop has truly realized this part:


Bogans doesn't need the ball, and Parker does, so they match. It's the same reason Popovich now brings Richard Jefferson and DeJuan Blair off the bench to play with Manu Ginobili.

Ginobili creates for both. Curiously, the coaches don't see Ginobili and Duncan as perfect complements. Blair rolls to the basket for Ginobili's passes better than Duncan.

I'm perfectly fine if you're giving maximum time to the Ginobili/Jefferson/Blair grouping, as that seems to be working out really well.


Finally, the whole thing with Bogans being the "centerpiece" is intriguing. I know many fans didn't want to hear it, as it means more and more minutes for Bogans, but it basically shows that Pop is committed to the model that he created when he had Bruce Bowen. Even if he doesn't really have a true Bowen replacement, he's going to go with the next best thing he has. While this is distressing, as it means consistent Bogans minutes this year, there is a silver lining to this situation: when (if) Hairston gets minutes next season, he is going to get A LOT of minutes. It kind of goes back to something I thought of two months ago:

As weird as this may sound only a few months into Keith Bogans tenure as a Spur, perhaps Bogans' current role is a prototype of how they might throw Hairston into the fire next year.

As the contracts set up and with reality setting in that the Spurs need to continue to get younger, perhaps Hairston will be next year's "centerpiece."

Baseline
03-08-2010, 01:36 AM
if bogans holds james to 10 points
people will be sucking his balls tomorrow

Hold LeBron to 10 points in which quarter?

Baseline
03-08-2010, 01:40 AM
I understand what pop is saying about Bogans being important because he'sa guy who doesn't need the ball, and he can be the defensive identity guy.

However, we aren't a defensive team anymore, and Pop revelaed to the whole universe that he's an idiot, because he's still living in 2007 or earlier.

If he hadn't railroaded Bowen last year, Bowen could still be playing and giving us twice what Bogans could ever expect to give us.

Do you guys know that as a Spur, Finley never had a higher three-point FG% than Bowen?

TheChillFactor
03-08-2010, 06:21 AM
Lol centerpiece...the worst "centerpiece" in the whole fuckin NBA. What an asshole.

Brazil
03-08-2010, 06:36 AM
Hairston is a Defensive presence and he doesn't need the ball. I have no issues with a player and a system ala Bowen but Bogans ?

Ice009
03-08-2010, 06:41 AM
Does anyone recall Tim Duncan giving George Hill props a week or two ago saying that George Hill's been asked to guard the best scorer on the other team.

Has Pop got this wrong?

greyforest
03-08-2010, 06:44 AM
:lmao

I sure hope Pop was just kidding around about the Bogans bit

maybe hes trying to build bogans ego?

MI21
03-08-2010, 07:12 AM
“He's really the centerpiece of the whole thing,”

http://i31.tinypic.com/qx436v.gif

stéphane
03-08-2010, 08:08 AM
Nothing really surprising there but interesting write up anyway.

The only problem is that Keith is not half the defender Bruce was.

The chemistry thing that has been brought up is pretty clear for a while. Tony and Tim have really good chemistry due to the fact that either Tony can go to the basket or pass to a singled Timmy or pass to 3point shooter due to the fact that we try to space the floor when Tim is in the middle. Manu's passing ability is better than Tony for hitting running players thus working better with a forward's backdoor cut or on a pick'n roll closer to the basket.

tp2021
03-08-2010, 08:10 AM
If BOGANS is the "centerpiece" then why the fuck did Pop kick the best centerpiece in the NBA off our team? And no, I'm not talkin bout Fin.

boutons_deux
03-08-2010, 08:36 AM
Just fricking WOW

An NBA non-starter is the Spurs' centerpiece?

Memo to Pop: Your stopper's gone, you ain't got no stopper no more. Get over yourself, earn your salary, and coach up something different.

OrEmuN
03-08-2010, 09:47 AM
Bogans will continue to start. If he plays like the past 2 games, we will be fine. Otherwise, we are pretty screwed. However, I do understand why Bogans has to defend the most players on the other team - Hill is needed more and more at the offensive end and to run the team (with Parker out). As such, Hill cannot be risked being bogged down with foul troubles

I guess at this point, we have no option but to hope that the Bogans of the last 2 games will continue his form and pray that it will all work out. Failing which, I just wish to see Hairston being given a chance

Obstructed_View
03-08-2010, 10:02 AM
Bogans will continue to start. If he plays like the past 2 games, we will be fine. Otherwise, we are pretty screwed. However, I do understand why Bogans has to defend the most players on the other team - Hill is needed more and more at the offensive end and to run the team (with Parker out). As such, Hill cannot be risked being bogged down with foul troubles

I guess at this point, we have no option but to hope that the Bogans of the last 2 games will continue his form and pray that it will all work out. Failing which, I just wish to see Hairston being given a chance

Bogans of the last two games might have earned himself a spot in the rotation. No way he's done anything to justify starting more games than he's ever started before in his entire career.

YoMamaIsCallin
03-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Are y'all kidding me? Did you see what Bogans did to Rudy Gay, who has torn up the Spurs in the past? Does anyone remember the game he won last year with a buzzer beater 3? Bogans absolutely took him out of his game. He made him take bad shots and therefore others didn't get engaged. Bogans absolutely kept the Spurs in that game.

You gotta respect the game he brings. It's not all about youth, athleticism, and offense.

Obstructed_View
03-08-2010, 10:11 AM
Are y'all kidding me? Did you see what Bogans did to Rudy Gay, who has torn up the Spurs in the past? Does anyone remember the game he won last year with a buzzer beater 3? Bogans absolutely took him out of his game. He made him take bad shots and therefore others didn't get engaged. Bogans absolutely kept the Spurs in that game.

You gotta respect the game he brings. It's not all about youth, athleticism, and offense.

Yet Bogans still ended up with a -15 for his time on the floor and scored zero points.

At some point it's about improving the team. Bogans does that by being subbed out.

Chomag
03-08-2010, 10:15 AM
Not surprising. Pops got tiered of Fiinley and went on to fresher meat.

nkdlunch
03-08-2010, 10:32 AM
I'm with Ducks on this one. :wow

Bogans is the best perimeter defender the Spurs have. Pop loves defense. You figure it out.

AFBlue
03-08-2010, 10:40 AM
I think Bogans continues to start, but with Parker out of the lineup the Spurs will need more scoring in the starting unit.

My guess at a settled starting 5 is...

PG Hill
SG Bogans
SF Jefferson
PF Duncan
C McDyess

The Truth #6
03-08-2010, 11:14 AM
Wow.

So Pop admits he is still stuck with the same formula, still trying to find the same archetypes, even though the Big 3 aren't as good as they were and the replacement players aren't as good either. It's like he's admitting he has no creativity or ability to adapt.

If you're looking for a player who is content to never score (so that Parker can score, I mean, be a point guard and get the team involved) and only wants to defend you're most likely going to end up with a scrub like Bogans who is happy to play that role because he's happy to be in the NBA, not because he's actually good at it.

We were lucky to have Bowen who embraced and excelled in that role. But he was a very special player. Of course, it would have made sense to actually use Bowen in the "Bowen" role, but that makes too much sense.

Does Pop think calling Bogans the centerpiece is some sort of unconventional, brilliant statement? It's idiotic.

A defensive-minded spot shooter is fine as an idea, but it's not Bogans. Perhaps Hairston doesn't play because he would upset the balance by doing something additonal, like trying to score or drive to the rim?

Everything Pop said is fairly obvious for anyonoe who follows the team. The System isn't going to work with crappy players. It makes lesser players better at the moment, but that shouldn't be the goal.

Ughh.

Mel_13
03-08-2010, 11:27 AM
Finally, the whole thing with Bogans being the "centerpiece" is intriguing. I know many fans didn't want to hear it, as it means more and more minutes for Bogans, but it basically shows that Pop is committed to the model that he created when he had Bruce Bowen. Even if he doesn't really have a true Bowen replacement, he's going to go with the next best thing he has. While this is distressing, as it means consistent Bogans minutes this year, there is a silver lining to this situation: when (if) Hairston gets minutes next season, he is going to get A LOT of minutes. It kind of goes back to something I thought of two months ago:

As weird as this may sound only a few months into Keith Bogans tenure as a Spur, perhaps Bogans' current role is a prototype of how they might throw Hairston into the fire next year.


As the contracts set up and with reality setting in that the Spurs need to continue to get younger, perhaps Hairston will be next year's "centerpiece."

Thoughtful and well-reasoned. The Spurs spent 1.5M on Hairston to not use him this year. Everything points to a greater role next year. I hope so as I've been a big Malik fan since the 2008 pre-season.

GhosTown
03-08-2010, 11:31 AM
And the bad part about this is Pop really believes this shit.

He is 3 games out of last place and he still believes he has the players to run his old scheme without Bowen and a legit center.

Somebody better call Jim Boeheim and ask him to teach Pop the 2-3 zone. We are going to need it if Bogans is supposed to be our lock down defender.

NFO
03-08-2010, 11:35 AM
if bogans holds james to 10 points
people will be sucking his balls tomorrow

The only way Bogans holds James to under 10 points is if James sits out like he did against Milwuakee the other night.

Old School 44
03-08-2010, 11:46 AM
Props to Buck Harvey. That's the closest article I've seen to calling Pop out from the local media, particularly in regards to Bogans. I'm surprised it's taken this long. It explains a lot about what Pop's thinking. I can't say I agree with the direction he's taking. The strength of your key players should dictate your style, not the defensive strength (and I say that lightly) of one of your second tier players. I'm glad Finley's gone, but with this philosophy, I can see why him and RMJ wanted out.

Death In June
03-08-2010, 12:22 PM
Props to Buck Harvey. That's the closest article I've seen to calling Pop out from the local media, particularly in regards to Bogans. I'm surprised it's taken this long. It explains a lot about what Pop's thinking. I can't say I agree with the direction he's taking. The strength of your key players should dictate your style, not the defensive strength (and I say that lightly) of one of your second tier players. I'm glad Finley's gone, but with this philosophy, I can see why him and RMJ wanted out.What're you talking about? Harvey was all over Pops nuts. The guy plays it safe, writes stupid incoherent headlines, and hacky trite articles. He's the epitome of the SA sports "journalism" problem.

Old School 44
03-08-2010, 12:44 PM
What're you talking about? Harvey was all over Pops nuts. The guy plays it safe, writes stupid incoherent headlines, and hacky trite articles. He's the epitome of the SA sports "journalism" problem.

Did you read THIS article from the OP? Harvey doesn't rip Pop, but he puts many of the questions out there that many on this board are asking about in regards to Bogans.

I haven't seen any prior local articles that even come close to mentioning any of this, hence my quote the "closest article I've seen to calling Pop out".

ElNono
03-08-2010, 12:51 PM
I'm with Ducks on this one. :wow

Bogans is the best perimeter defender the Spurs have. Pop loves defense. You figure it out.

I disagree. I think both Manu and Hill are better perimeter defenders than him.

Obstructed_View
03-08-2010, 03:26 PM
I disagree. I think both Manu and Hill are better perimeter defenders than him.

I think Manu and Hill and Mason and Jefferson and Parker and Hairston are better perimiter defenders than Bogans. I'd prefer to see Blair get starts at the three.

AFBlue
03-08-2010, 03:37 PM
I disagree. I think both Manu and Hill are better perimeter defenders than him.


I think Manu and Hill and Mason and Jefferson and Parker and Hairston are better perimiter defenders than Bogans. I'd prefer to see Blair get starts at the three.

I think Bogans is the most physical defender the Spurs have. He's the kind of player that gets under the opposing player's skin, which is a very Bowen-esque quality.

Unfortunately that doesn't actually translate into stops. :lol

Obstructed_View
03-08-2010, 03:42 PM
I think Bogans is the most physical defender the Spurs have. He's the kind of player that gets under the opposing player's skin, which is a very Bowen-esque quality.

Unfortunately that doesn't actually translate into stops. :lol

I think that sometimes Bogans bodies up on people and waves his arms like a crazy person, and he apparently does it just enough for people to think that makes him a good defender. I notice his inabilty to block out, his inability to time a jump, his inability to rotate, his short arms and his slow feet.

And I have yet to see him get under an opposing player's skin like Bowen did. Guys didn't like Bowen because he kept them from scoring. As I've said before, due to how rarely it happens, it's statistically likely that the guys that Bogans has success against are simply having a bad shooting night.

HarlemHeat37
03-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Bogans did play good D against Rudy Gay in the 1st quarter..Rudy Gay also struggled heavily against Richard Jefferson, an average defender, in the 2 previous games against the Spurs this season too..he's just sucked against us and he's one of those players that takes himself out of games with his low IQ..

Unfortunately, that's the only notable player he's played good D against since November..he's usually getting torched..shit, I hope Bogans can play good D, he's obviously going to get minutes either way, so I hope he can step up..

The Spurs' defense is actually WORSE with Bogans on the floor..he has the worst +/- on this team and the D is 1 point worse when Bogans is on the floor..how can somebody be a centerpiece for the defense when the D is worse when he's on the floor?..

Bogans has 1 or 2 good games every 3 weeks or so, that's the main problem I have with him..his bad games heavily outweigh the amount of good games he has..I hope he can play well on a consistent basis, but we haven't seen it so far..

Obstructed_View
03-08-2010, 04:42 PM
Bogans has 1 or 2 good games every 3 weeks or so, that's the main problem I have with him..his bad games heavily outweigh the amount of good games he has..I hope he can play well on a consistent basis, but we haven't seen it so far..

I'm not sure he's done it in seven years in the league. Why people expect that to suddenly change just boggles the mind.