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  1. #1
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57...lash-ev-costs/

    Finally, an EV that will meet real world expectations? Maybe just a whiff of this will help the Chevy Volt stay alive until the technology can be delivered.
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  2. #2
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    LOL, I was just getting ready to post this!

    It is pretty exciting, I mean, I believe that range anxiety will be SIGNIFICANTLY lessened when the EVs have 250-300 mile ranges. Especially with all of these fast chargers that are being introduced. Something like this pretty much ushers in the era of electric cars.
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  3. #3
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    LOL, I was just getting ready to post this!

  4. #4
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Interesting bit.

    Loves me that data.

    Looked up some basic (probably dated) information on current costs:
    http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Battery-Energy.html

    That was useful in providing some conversion ratios to get to a figure of about 1.4Mj/kg in energy for the new tech in the article.

    which then lets one compare it to gasoline, at 46Mj/kg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency

    given that 75% of that is heat, the work energy available is closer to 12Mj/kg

    From the first link the battery technology is about 3.5 times more energy dense than most conventional tech up to recently, and the cost approaches that of the cheapie lead-acid battery.

    The fact that it is cost competitive (12 cents per unit of energy versus 17 cents for lead) with lead-acid batteries, says this technology will almost certainly replace that technology for gasoline cars at the very least.

    It also holds the potential for knocking down battery costs for PV systems, and appears to be scalable to utility usage, if so.

    Nifty.

    This would be further applicable to home-charging PV schemes for the same cars that stand to benefit from the cost reductions in manufacturing.

    If one is concerned about energy security, you need to be screaming for technology like this.
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  5. #5
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    75% heat...

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?
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  6. #6
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    A simple carport design, with the roof of the carport made up of PV cells, and a charging station with the new tech, would be all it would take.

    BAM!!

    Hmmm taking wiki's figures for Mj/liter... getting that to Mj/gal, then factoring out the heat loss... (75%)

    32Mj/gal of gasoline available to move the vehicle around.

    Let's see, given say, 30MPG for an average small car or similar, and say 80 miles perday average total usage...

    80/30*32= 85Mj/day energy requirement.

  7. #7
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    75% heat...

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?
    75% loss of energy through heat and 25% converted to mechanical energy is what I remember off the top of my head.

  8. #8
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    75% heat...

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?
    I think so...gas engines are somewhere in the 20-25% range.

  9. #9
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Here ya go WC

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

    Only about 14%–26% of the energy from the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car down the road, depending on the drive cycle. The rest of the energy is lost to engine and driveline inefficiencies or used to power accessories. Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.

  10. #10
    Believe.
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    no

    while gasoline/diesel have much higher energy density, they don't get much above 30% efficiency.

    If the heat lost could be converted by solid-state devices (engine block + exhaust chain) to electricity to charge batteries, a huge advance.

    70% of imported oil goes to transport, and 70% of that oil is wasted as heat. So 50% of imported oil wasted as heat, without even considering the energy used in refining.

  11. #11
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    A simple carport design, with the roof of the carport made up of PV cells, and a charging station with the new tech, would be all it would take.

    BAM!!

    Hmmm taking wiki's figures for Mj/liter... getting that to Mj/gal, then factoring out the heat loss... (75%)

    32Mj/gal of gasoline available to move the vehicle around.

    Let's see, given say, 30MPG for an average small car or similar, and say 80 miles perday average total usage...

    80/30*32= 85Mj/day energy requirement.
    Close, but you can't completely factor out heat loss, or other inefficiencies.

  12. #12
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Now 90% of battery energy goes to moving car around, so you have 1.4*.9 = 1.26 per kilogram to do work.

    Now we just need to figure cost per Kg

    85Mj/1.26 = 67 kilograms of batteries. (to replace one gallon of gasoline)


    400 watt-hours per kilogram at a projected cost of $125 per kilowatt-hour
    kilowatt hour is 1000 watt-hours... 1000/400 = 2.5 kg = $125 cost per kg 125/2.5 = $50

    50*67 = $3,370 in batteries to run the car for 80 miles/day.

    per miles cost = about $42 (41.875) this gives you your conversion factor if you desire more range. (assuming recharge daily)

    if you want a full 300 mile range, it then goes to $12,562
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 03-01-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #13
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    A home charging system would allow daily re-fueling however.

    You don't need a full 300 mile range unless you drive that much daily.

    You just need a battery system that gets 99% of your usage.

    I imagine one could have a spot in the trunk for a plug in spare battery for increased range for long trips, if desired.

    If you want a home system that meets your needs, you can figure out your transportation usage, then double the battery need (one for the car, one for the charging system that soaks up power while you are at work), and add in cost per watt for a PV system.

    My time is up, but I might work up a spreadsheet around this for fun.

  14. #14
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    ~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big

  15. #15
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    ~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big
    Do I get to mention that the research was partly funded by the government?

    Yeah, I went there.

  16. #16
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Throw that shit away.

    /s

  17. #17
    Believe.
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    Electric Car Revolution Starts in France: Renault EVs Arrive at Dealerships



    Batteries Not Included

    As every EV fan knows, an electric car requires little maintenance, but it's nice to know that Renault has set up an organization so that the customer will never be left to his own devices. In fact, customers will have to maintain a constant relationship with Renault, because the company has chosen not to sell its batteries. That's the trick to make the electric car cheaper. People will buy the car, without any other choice than to rent the battery. The Renault Kangoo Z.E. (the first model available) starts at 20,000 euros ($27,320) VAT not included, and government incentives for buying an EV not deducted. You must add on top of that the monthly rent for the 22-kWh (usable) battery, which varies between 72 and 125 euros ($98 to $170), depending on the mileage and the contract's length. Electricity isn't included—and neither is the charging cord pictured below, which is an option. For some reason, Renault believes most users will have access to a charging station and won't need the cord. That is probably true for the Kangoo which most often should be bought as a work vehicle.
    That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it

    That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it.

    http://www.plugincars.com/renault-el...ce-109669.html

    Mfrs need to get out of the proprietary battery business, and pool their resources in a industry battery research org, that would deliver a generic plug-in battery sold for all EVs and from 1000s of sources, just like gasoline and diesel are commodities.

  18. #18
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    ~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big
    Don't put too much stock in my back of the envelope calculations, but it does give one some idea as to the rough magnitude of the discovery, yes.

    The article did talk about the fact that even if you do nothing else to the car but make it lose 500 pounds, it will get better mileage.

    Given the way gas is going, one has to think about this in terms of the fact that this technology is going to be price-compared to a technology whose costs are going up.

    PV and battery costs only go down, gasoline costs only go up (especially given just about all China/India/Africa growth scenarios).

    It does not take a genius to see there will be a point where the total system costs of EV's with renewable charging schemes become cheaper than the gas-guzzlers.

    Sounds like a nifty weekend project.

  19. #19
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    @ boutons' link.

    Downside...it's a Renault.

  20. #20
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Electric Car Revolution Starts in France: Renault EVs Arrive at Dealerships



    Batteries Not Included

    As every EV fan knows, an electric car requires little maintenance, but it's nice to know that Renault has set up an organization so that the customer will never be left to his own devices. In fact, customers will have to maintain a constant relationship with Renault, because the company has chosen not to sell its batteries. That's the trick to make the electric car cheaper. People will buy the car, without any other choice than to rent the battery. The Renault Kangoo Z.E. (the first model available) starts at 20,000 euros ($27,320) VAT not included, and government incentives for buying an EV not deducted. You must add on top of that the monthly rent for the 22-kWh (usable) battery, which varies between 72 and 125 euros ($98 to $170), depending on the mileage and the contract's length. Electricity isn't included—and neither is the charging cord pictured below, which is an option. For some reason, Renault believes most users will have access to a charging station and won't need the cord. That is probably true for the Kangoo which most often should be bought as a work vehicle.
    That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it

    That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it.

    http://www.plugincars.com/renault-el...ce-109669.html

    Mfrs need to get out of the proprietary battery business, and pool their resources in a industry battery research org, that would deliver a generic plug-in battery sold for all EVs and from 1000s of sources, just like gasoline and diesel are commodities.


    Envia [the developer of the technology referenced] licensed technology from Argonne National Laboratory and was funded with $4 million from the ARPA-E agency in 2009 to develop the high-energy density battery. It also received a grant from the U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium.
    http://www.uscar.org/guest/view_team.php?teams_id=12

    Members are the big three US automakers.

  21. #21
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Here ya go WC

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml
    Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.
    This is why I advocate things like fuel cells for fuel.

  22. #22
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Continue development of high-power battery technologies to reduce cost to $20/kW and extend life to 15 years.
    I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

    So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


    This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.

  23. #23
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.
    Until China steals it.

  24. #24
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

    So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


    This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.
    If we get funding for it... The others have the brains and a steady stream of guaranteed Govt money coming in.

  25. #25
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-the-wind.html

    10Q: How AES Captures and Stores the Wind

    Making batteries twice as cheap means they can afford to store twice as much power.

    They are talking 50MW chunks, up to 400MW storage.

    An interesting point is that this capacity is instantly available, increasing the stability of the grid.

  26. #26
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

    So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


    This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.
    bump. Poptech missed it.

  27. #27
    Cold-Ass Honkie RandomGuy's Avatar
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    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-the-wind.html

    10Q: How AES Captures and Stores the Wind

    Making batteries twice as cheap means they can afford to store twice as much power.

    They are talking 50MW chunks, up to 400MW storage.

    An interesting point is that this capacity is instantly available, increasing the stability of the grid.
    This also increases overall demand for renewables, with their fixed fuel costs, i.e. zero.

  28. #28
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Within the next decade the naysayers are going to see a lot of changes. It is interesting seeing all these new business models popping up.
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  29. #29
    Believe.
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    next commodity boom/speculation/scarcity? lithium

  30. #30
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Pretty good guesss, tbh.

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