Amateur: Steve Nash MVP

[Phenomanul]

I've been an ardent NBA fan since roughly 1990 and was witness to the dominance of many great players. During the peak years of the SSOL Suns I didn't really buy into the narrative that Steve Nash was the absolute best player in the NBA. In my mind other players were better individual performers, especially if one also factored defensive contributions.

When he was paired with Mike D'Antoni's SSOL offense, however, it was like a match made in heaven for Steve Nash's style - because his own defensive shortcomings didn't matter in such a system. The Suns would simply play to outscore their opponents. On the offensive side of the court, Nash's creativity was given free reign and his leadership ability was thrust into prominence (where it had largely been subservient to Nowitzki's leadership while a member of the Mavericks teams). Nash thrived in such a system.

In retrospect, Nash was a very dangerous and dominant player when orchestrating an offense. The Suns relied on his ability to make "the right" basketball decision possession after possession, and he was proficiently consistent with that task. It's in this latter regard that Nash created utmost value for his team. Sure, one could rightfully attribute higher/inflated scoring and assist numbers to D'Antoni's offense, but accomplishing 50-40-90 seasons still requires an extraordinary level of skill (all while commandeering the offense). Few players in NBA history fall on that short list and Nash accomplished said feat 4 times (barely missing the cut another 2 seasons).

IMO Popovich outclassed D'Antoni in his own game and that's largely the reason why Steve Nash is ringless. If not for the strategic greatness and style-adaptability of the 2005-2008 Spurs, no one would be questioning Nash's MVPs today.

[Millennial_Messiah]

He was the ; he deserved the first MVP for sure. I HATED him back then because Spurs homer, but he was clearly the best player in the league. Keep in mind only a handful of guards have won MVP before him, but there was no way Shaq should have won MVP that year or even Tim Duncan for that matter.

The Suns were clearly the best team in the league in 2005. Nash, Amare, Marion, Iso Joe Johnson in his prime, 45% 3-point shooting Q-Richardson. Unstoppable. They routinely scored 80 points by halftime and then let off the gas in the second half and only ended up in the 120s or so. Those Suns started off 31-4 and likely would have won 72-73 games if Nash hadn't gotten injured the game after that and they had that loooooooong midseason losing streak. The game Nash finally came back was that epic game against the Spurs when we came all the way back to force OT and Manu had 48 points and Brent Barry made a ton of threes.

The Spurs were the second best team in '05 but they were smarter because Pop had experience and D'Antoni was a playoff rookie. Pop's strategy was to let Amare take all the shots he wanted but stop the dribble drive game and guard the 3s. Threw the Suns off their game inexplicably and we went up 3-0 with some luck, and won it in 5. Manu played out of his mind.

The Suns were only the 2nd best team in 2007, and the Spurs were the 3rd best team, but the Suns got robbed by the league. Nash flop or not, Horry was a career instigator and we all know that. Amare didn't put his hands on anybody. And Bobo too? Bobo is a downright pacifist. They were looking out for their teammate. Re ed time to enforce a dumber rule at the bottom of the book. That's why I always say, 2007*. I was pulling for the Suns to win game 5 so the Spurs could win game 6 and 7, but meh.

[dbreiden83080]

I never had a problem with it. Those Suns teams were really good. But the 2nd MVP Yeah I could see the dispute. Suns only won 54 games as opposed to the 62 wins the previous year, which was the best record in the league. But nobody really stood out in 2006. So Steve got it again. Duncan if not for the bad foot that year likely wins league MVP for a 3rd time. He put up 19/11 that year, if healthy he likely goes like 22/12.. Spurs won 63 games best record in the league.. Dirk had a great year averaging 26. Could have gave it to him..

[Arcadian]

He was the ; he deserved the first MVP for sure. I HATED him back then because Spurs homer, but he was clearly the best player in the league. Keep in mind only a handful of guards have won MVP before him, but there was no way Shaq should have won MVP that year or even Tim Duncan for that matter.

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Wade, and Dirk. I would even take chucking Kobe and young Lebron over Nash in terms of overall ability. (And I say this as a fan of Nash, not a hater by any stretch.)

[dbreiden83080]

Still better than Porker

Tony always played great against the Suns. Helped us beat them in the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. Averaged over 20 in both series..

[dbreiden83080]

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, and Dirk.

2005 I get it they won 62 games, and best player on the team with the best record usually gets it.. Although Amare was a monster back then, a 26/9 guy.. Nash had plenty of help. 2006 Nash likely did not deserve it. Probably Dirk should have got it. Duncan if not for the bad foot that season, I think does win it..

[Clipper Nation]

The Nash sucking is a little over the top. Dirk immediately became a much better player after Nash left Dallas. Nash used to get humiliated by Mike Bibby and Porker every year in the playoffs. He padded his stats in the D'Antoni system and got two pity MVPs. Kidd was better than him.

[Millennial_Messiah]

I never had a problem with it. Those Suns teams were really good. But the 2nd MVP Yeah I could see the dispute. Suns only won 54 games as opposed to the 62 wins the previous year, which was the best record in the league. But nobody really stood out in 2006. So Steve got it again. Duncan if not for the bad foot that year likely wins league MVP for a 3rd time. He put up 19/11 that year, if healthy he likely goes like 22/12.. Spurs won 63 games best record in the league.. Dirk had a great year averaging 26. Could have gave it to him..

Nash basically carried an otherwise bottom feeder to the WCF in 2006. Amare missed the entire season with the knee injury in '06. They "only" won 54 but they would have won like 14 without him.

People forget that, the Marbury-Amare-Marion Suns won 44 in '03, but when Marbury was traded the next year they only won 29 games... even with Marbury there half a year and Amare and Marion and Joe Johnson all healthy. Nash was literally their everything. The Suns lost 7 in a row with Nash out injured partway through the '05 season, else they would have won 70+ that year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

The Nash sucking is a little over the top. Dirk immediately became a much better player after Nash left Dallas. Nash used to get humiliated by Mike Bibby and Porker every year in the playoffs. He padded his stats in the D'Antoni system and got two pity MVPs. Kidd was better than him.

I like you, but dubious post.

Post-Nash and Don Nelson, the Mavs went from being the most fun team in the NBA to watch to a ghastly, miserable, isoball offense that was only moderately successful (and highly successful in '07 except for when they played fast tempo teams like the Warriors and Suns) because of Dirk's legendary greatness, that impeccable turnaround jumper and of course his ability to Harden his way to the free throw line where he shot 91%. But the Avery Johnson era Mavs played some of the most grim, fingernail-to-chalkboard offense you'll ever see throughout NBA history. Essentially it was, 4 down and let the isoballer du jour play streetball-style 1 on 1 and try to score or get fouled. When it was Dirk it worked, but watching Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse? Yuck. They always finished bottom in the NBA in assists. Horrible basketball.

Yes Steve Nash was never known for his defense, but he hardly got "humiliated" by Mike Bibby or Tony Parker, neither of which were known for their defense as well.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Tony always played great against the Suns. Helped us beat them in the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. Averaged over 20 in both series..

Tony Parker struggled (mightily) against the Suns in the pre-Nash era because Marbury had his number, but he was solid in '05 and great in '07. Barry was usually a better PG option in '05 because of the shooting, though.

[DJR210]

Nash was really good tbh.. I believe they had the best record and the most "exciting" offense at the time too. 2X MVP though, IDK. Parker ended up borrowing a little of the patience from Nash's game when he would drive the paint and test the defense and pull back out to find the breakdowns

[FrostKing]

2005 I get it they won 62 games, and best player on the team with the best record usually gets it.. Although Amare was a monster back then, a 26/9 guy.. Nash had plenty of help. 2006 Nash likely did not deserve it. Probably Dirk should have got it. Duncan if not for the bad foot that season, I think does win it..

Nash had superior numbers in 2006 and a 7 game drop off without your 2nd best player is rather good

In 2006 assists fell by 1 but his FG%, 3PT, FT%, TRB and PTS (+3) were all higher

[Chris]

The Suns were clearly the best team in the league in 2005. Nash, Amare, Marion, Iso Joe Johnson in his prime, 45% 3-point shooting Q-Richardson. Unstoppable. They routinely scored 80 points by halftime and then let off the gas in the second half and only ended up in the 120s or so. Those Suns started off 31-4 and likely would have won 72-73 games if Nash hadn't gotten injured the game after that and they had that loooooooong midseason losing streak. The game Nash finally came back was that epic game against the Spurs when we came all the way back to force OT and Manu had 48 points and Brent Barry made a ton of threes.

The Spurs were the second best team in '05 but they were smarter because Pop had experience and D'Antoni was a playoff rookie. Pop's strategy was to let Amare take all the shots he wanted but stop the dribble drive game and guard the 3s. Threw the Suns off their game inexplicably and we went up 3-0 with some luck, and won it in 5. Manu played out of his mind.

The Suns were only the 2nd best team in 2007, and the Spurs were the 3rd best team, but the Suns got robbed by the league. Nash flop or not, Horry was a career instigator and we all know that. Amare didn't put his hands on anybody. And Bobo too? Bobo is a downright pacifist. They were looking out for their teammate. Re ed time to enforce a dumber rule at the bottom of the book. That's why I always say, 2007*. I was pulling for the Suns to win game 5 so the Spurs could win game 6 and 7, but meh.

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Pop was forced to go small ball when the Spurs played the Suns and coached out of his mind. Basically the strategy was to let Amare get whatever he wanted and shut down everything else. The hip check was clean, but Nash was so good at flopping and selling, that he marked out his own teammates. Nash screwed Nash.

Give credit to Spurs FO for getting players like Barry and Horry

[Chris]

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Wade, and Dirk. I would even take chucking Kobe and young Lebron over Nash in terms of overall ability. (And I say this as a fan of Nash, not a hater by any stretch.)

I would probably take Wade over Nash tbh and you make a good case for Dirk as well. We agree he was the most valuable

[Millennial_Messiah]

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Seahawks Broncos 2013-14 Super Bowl is a good analogy there

[Millennial_Messiah]

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Pop was forced to go small ball when the Spurs played the Suns and coached out of his mind. Basically the strategy was to let Amare get whatever he wanted and shut down everything else. The hip check was clean, but Nash was so good at flopping and selling, that he marked out his own teammates. Nash screwed Nash.

Give credit to Spurs FO for getting players like Barry and Horry

The one thing that was always a little weird was how come virtually the same roster with Marbury instead of Nash at PG were a lot tougher for us to beat than with Nash? Even though they only won 44 games with Starbury and 62 with Nash.

[resistanze]

But nobody really stood out in 2006. .

Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Billups, even Elton Brand had better standout seasons than Nash in 2006. That was the most narrative driven MVP award I've seen, until Chuckbrook.

[Chris]

The one thing that was always a little weird was how come virtually the same roster with Marbury instead of Nash at PG were a lot tougher for us to beat than with Nash? Even though they only won 44 games with Starbury and 62 with Nash.

Spurs always had trouble with black hole ball dominant guards/forwards like Marbury for some reason.

[resistanze]

Nash basically carried an otherwise bottom feeder to the WCF in 2006. Amare missed the entire season with the knee injury in '06. They "only" won 54 but they would have won like 14 without him.

People forget that, the Marbury-Amare-Marion Suns won 44 in '03, but when Marbury was traded the next year they only won 29 games... even with Marbury there half a year and Amare and Marion and Joe Johnson all healthy. Nash was literally their everything. The Suns lost 7 in a row with Nash out injured partway through the '05 season, else they would have won 70+ that year.

This garbage narrative got Nash the award.
- The Suns blew up their team mid-season in 2004 and Amare missed 1/3 of that season (and was a rookie)
- In 2005 they gave Nash all the credit for 'being their everything' despite it was a totally different team from 2004
- Then in 2006 you (and fat sportswriters in 2006) give Nash credit for losing more games, using to Amare's injury as argument - I thought it was all Nash in 2005 anyways?
- I've never seen an MVP finish this low in WS, look at this tbh, not even first on his own team

[Millennial_Messiah]

This garbage narrative got Nash the award.
- The Suns blew up their team mid-season in 2004 and Amare missed 1/3 of that season (and was a rookie)
- In 2005 they gave Nash all the credit for 'being their everything' despite it was a totally different team from 2004
- Then in 2006 you (and fat sportswriters in 2006) give Nash credit for losing more games, using to Amare's injury as argument - I thought it was all Nash in 2005 anyways?
- I've never seen an MVP finish this low in WS, look at this tbh, not even first on his own team

-Amare was a rookie in 02-03, not 03-04. Hence the TD three pointer in OT against the Suns in the '08 first round, game 1 being direct retribution for Amare's 3 to force OT in the '03 first round, game 1. Amare's injury plagued '04 season combined with Marbury essentially quitting on the team in December and sandbagging for a trade to the Knicks, caused them to fall off dramatically that year, too much noise making a lean year for an otherwise talented team.

-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.

-Yes Nash won less games in '06 due to Amare being out all year. That doesn't make Nash less of an MVP; think if Shaq lost Kobe in '00, how many do the Lakers win? Then again, I think Kobe deserved the '06 MVP over Nash that specific year because Kobe had a ridiculous season and led an otherwise bad team to the playoffs. Wade was the other guy I would have picked over Nash in '06.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Spurs always had trouble with black hole ball dominant guards/forwards like Marbury for some reason.

Especially PGs. Parker was young and egocentric and also not very good at defense, especially when he was young. Parker normally came into games looking to distribute and go with the flow of the game, but when guys like Marbury lit him up, he'd always try to get even by himself by playing heroball instead of running P&R or offense through TD, which would get us in trouble, particularly against the Suns in '03 until game 3 when Pop wisened up and played Claxton more and also often use Manu at point with SJ/Bruce/TD/(Rose/David) a bigger lineup better equipped to handle the Suns physical brand of basketball which had been killing us all year.

I still to this day maintain that someone from TP's camp forced Claxton off the team, someone French blackmailed the Spurs; Pop wanted TP to be the PG of the future, though he was flashy but inconsistent, but TP wanted to be the man no matter what or get traded. Also why the Spurs were essentially out of the Jason Kidd sweepstakes that summer before it started. Claxton was the perfect backup and could have come back at a reasonable price, and it's not like he went to another contender (he went to Golden State who was bad back then); it's a damn shame he only got to be here for half a season.

[resistanze]

-Amare was a rookie in 02-03, not 03-04. Hence the TD three pointer in OT against the Suns in the '08 first round, game 1 being direct retribution for Amare's 3 to force OT in the '03 first round, game 1. Amare's injury plagued '04 season combined with Marbury essentially quitting on the team in December and sandbagging for a trade to the Knicks, caused them to fall off dramatically that year, too much noise making a lean year for an otherwise talented team.

Yeah I got the year mixed up. But how does this help Nash's point? The point was trying to attribute the turnaround in 2004-05 solely to Nash ignore the facts you just mentioned above. He wasn't just plugged into the same team as the previous year, it was a totally different (and healthy) year.

-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.

And yet in the last 30 years, the only MVPs to finish out of the top 4 in WS (over half were #1 in WS) were:

AI in 2001: 8th
Nash in 2005: 11th
Nash in 2006: 8th

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah I got the year mixed up. But how does this help Nash's point? The point was trying to attribute the turnaround in 2004-05 solely to Nash ignore the facts you just mentioned above. He wasn't just plugged into the same team as the previous year, it was a totally different (and healthy) year.


And yet in the last 30 years, the only MVPs to finish out of the top 4 in WS (over half were #1 in WS) were:

AI in 2001: 8th
Nash in 2005: 11th
Nash in 2006: 8th

They were essentially the same team from 03 to 05 except for replacing Marbury and the old corpse of Penny Hardaway with Nash and Quentin Richardson. And replacing Frank Johnson (a very underrated solid strategist coach who preached physicality and never quit) with Pringles.

Again with the dumb WS stat. Might as well use another analytics stat du jour to prove Matt Bonner was the MVP of the late Duncan era. Leave the analytics to baseball, and to some extent football. Basketball is a star's league, analytics don't really apply.

[Spurtacular]

Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Billups, even Elton Brand had better standout seasons than Nash in 2006. That was the most narrative driven MVP award I've seen, until Chuckbrook.

You smokin' some serious sh** brah.

J/K. We all know you racist AF.

[Spurtacular]

-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.

Win shares one of the most useless stats ever. Even if they're ballpark, they completely ignore that it's just a persistent use of an option that may not be the best option.