The Storm - who is better Tim or...

[Nikos]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

[GoSpurs21]

What confuses me is why were the Spurs of today (post Drob retirement) better on defense than any of the Drob led teams? Was their backcourt defense REALLY weak? I know it was not above average, but usually teams with great frontcourt defense can still be elite without having a Bowen.

Drob had Rodman and mings to help defensively underneath in the mid 90s, why were they never close to as good defensively as say the Knicks of that time, who like the Spurs of 03 were two of the best defensive teams of all time?

COACHING...COACHING...COACHING

Larry Brown was not as defensively minded
Tark...should never have coached in pros...thanks Red
Lucas only cared about out scoring opponent, minimal defense scemes
Hill only cared about O, didnt understand what Defense is

That and the players werent exactly the best defenders except Sean Elliot and Rodman, and maybe a couple others. No where near the caliber of the players and coaches we have today

I dont include mings because I he was over the hill when we got him. I never thought he was a good defender. He never stopped Malone or Barkley, that was always left to David.

Yesterday I watched Spurs Magic game from March 6, 2004 that my wife found this week. It was alot of fun watching Dave get 36, 13, 8, 5 against Shaq in SA on Shaq's birthday on national TV (NBC). It was the game where Rodman jumps on top of Dave, and kisses him on the top of the head after a dunk and foul. Spurs came back from being down by 17pts in the 4th quarter to win by 8.

[Nikos]

That and the players werent exactly the best defenders except Sean Elliot and Rodman, and maybe a couple others. No where near the caliber of the players we have today

Do not forget Terry mings. He was a solid man to man post defender despite the lack of shotblocking ability. That counts for something when they also had Rodman and Robinson. Thats enough to field a dominant defense. Unless the backcourt was real bad? Were they?

[whottt]

What confuses me is why were the Spurs of today (post Drob retirement) better on defense than any of the Drob led teams?

Because they have a brilliant defensive coach, one whose defensive systems are now copied by just about every elite team in the NBA...with the exception of the Lakers, Mavs and Kings. A coach who won't let you play if you don't play D. A coach whose D is built around funneling all plays into two shotblockers.



Drob's teams for the most part were uptempo running teams, even under Brown. Most of them were pretty good defensive teams for being the style of team they were.

But when Drob played for Brown the Spurs were usually a top 5 defensive team...

Was their backcourt defense REALLY weak? I know it was not above average, but usually teams with great frontcourt defense can still be elite without having a Bowen.

Under Brown? No.

But later? C'mon man...Vinny Del Negro? Defense? Why do you think he lasted about 1 full season under Pop?

Drob had Rodman

When the Spurs had coaches who coached offense more than defense...and you do realize that Rodman only played about a 3rd of the regular season in 94-95 right? He really only played about a season and quarter with the Spurs...and I don't think he ever played in every playoff game of a series with us. Rodman was misused int he 94-95 WCF...he should have been put on Hakeem.

and mings to help defensively underneath in the mid 90s,

mings was effectively done by the mid 90's and mings, while tough...was more of an offensive player than a defensive player...TC's specialty was cleaning offensive glass and under the basket muscle, he was a lot more like Moses Malone than he was Dikembe Mutombo or Dennis Rodman...

TC was the best player Drob played with after Duncan.


In any case, when a healthy TC and Drob were together under Brown I am pretty sure they were the best defensive team in the NBA at least once.

And the Pistons were the best defensive team at that time, not the Knicks.

why were they never close to as good defensively as say the Knicks of that time,

Then? They didn't have the back court to do it or a coach who preached it...why do you think Pop fired him?

[exstatic]

David was an athletic freak, and a defender non pariel, but was never driven to success, unless you count Avery nagging him. Tim isn't near the athlete, but has a post game that is MILES better than anything David ever had, and is obsessed with winning. I don't remember David ever skipping a plane ride back with the team after a playoff series loss. Strangely enough, if I had a team with David in his prime and Tim in his prime, David would be the 4 and Tim the 5. Davids offense was always predicated on cutting, driving, and shooting, with a few putbacks for good measure. Tim is much more of a post player. I think you're seeing Tim blossom on D and on the boards this years, since he doesn't have to carry the offense on his back anymore. I now think it's possible at some time for Tim to win a rebounding crown, which he narrowly missed a couple of years back, and a blocked shots crown, sporting a career high in career low (<35mbg) playing time. The scoring crown will always elude him, I feel. If David had worked as hard on his game as Tim has on his, he would have been THE best center ever, instead of on of the best.

[Nikos]

The Knicks defense of 92-93, and 93-94 were as good as it gets. They took the Pistons scheme and played it even better than they did. They just did not have the offensive talent to win les.

TC was a good man to man defender in 9394, but the Spurs were 10th on defense that season. Rodman played 79 games, but TC only played 59 games. Plus Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, and Vinny DelNego were weak to mediocre defenders. This is the reason I guess they were not an excellent defensive team that season. Backcourt must have been really weak though considering Rodman and Drob were essentially healthy.

You have a point with the 1994-95 season though. Rodman was out 33 games. And they were still 6th best on defense. Impressive. Thank Drob for that. They might have been the best that year if Rodman was healthy. Maybe not as good as the Spurs of 0304, but elite for sure. And that is with an above average perimeter defender (except maybe Elliot at times).

So it was a combo of the system that focused a bit more on offense, mediocre perimeter D, and injuries that kept them from being elite on defense.

[whottt]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

See everyone says this is a different era..and to an extent that is true, but it's not so much the game that has changed as the talent...at the same time..man they had more guys who could ing score and shoot back then...Probably more dunkers know...but your Hakeems, Birds, McHales, Worthys and Barkleys and Magic Johnsons and Jordans and Drexlers and Malones...those guys could ing score back then...they were better offensive players than these guys we have today are...these guys today are dunkers...Only guys we have liked that that are around today are guys like Peja and Dirk and Duncan and Cassell..Ray Allen...those guys would fit very well in that era...there was just betteer offensive players and that's a big reason it was a better offensive era.




When it was guys like Willie Anderson, Strick and especially Wingate the Spurs had an excellent D IIRC.

Unfortunately they weren't together and healthy for that long.

In the mid 90's...

AJ busted his ass playing D, which is why everyone loves him... but he just wasn't that good of a defender, he was a lot better when he had Duncan and Robinson behind him, 2 HOF bigmen..2 shotblockers...and Vinny sucked at it...Person was pretty decent..Ellis sucked at it...

[Nikos]

there was just betteer offensive players and that's a big reason it was a better offensive era.

I disagree to some extent here. Their were a few more offensive weapons up front back in the 90s, but the pace of the game was faster back then as well. More easier shots, thus more efficient offenses and less teams focusing on defense and walk-a-thons.

I would say today the talent has spilled over in the PF position as opposed to C. Also as a whole there more talented scorers at the 1 and 2 spot then back in the early 90s. Sure the elite players collectively have an edge on todays elite players, but today I would say there are plenty more scorers at the 2 spot and 1 spot than yesteryear.

Positions are being redefined as we speak.

[whottt]

The Knicks defense of 92-93, and 93-94 were as good as it gets. They took the Pistons scheme and played it even better than they did. They just did not have the offensive talent to win les.

TC was a good man to man defender in 9394,

TC was a washed up stiff legged stiff who could barely move by 93-94. You mistake his toughness and trying to hang on in the NBA for defensive ability. I mean do you think he just decided to stop playing O for the of it? He was crippled.

And Willie was in about the same condition by 93-94.

And anyway Rasho is a better shotblocker than any guy Drob played with, Robert Horry is as well...you could not play this style of D on those teams.

And 93-94 we had ing Vinny as our PG...man and a half dead Sleepy Floyd as his back up. That is not the recipe for winning an NBA le or leading the league in D.

but the Spurs were 10th on defense that season. Rodman played 79 games, but TC only played 59 games. Plus Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, and Vinny DelNego were weak to mediocre defenders. This is the reason I guess they were not an excellent defensive team that season. Backcourt must have been really weak though considering Rodman and Drob were essentially healthy.

Nikos...by 93-94 TC had destroyed his knee in a pick up game...Willie Anderson had chronic shinsplints, Dale Ellie was ing old...That team was garbage other than Rodman and Robinson...all you gotta do is look at the numbers Drob had to put up that season to keep us compe ive.

Do you think Duncan would have won 55 games with that team? Man I just don't see it. It'd be one thing if those shooters we surrounded Drob with were clutch..but how many of those guys wound up with any rings?

You have a point with the 1994-95 season though. Rodman was out 33 games. And they were still 6th best on defense. Impressive. Thank Drob for that.

And Elliott.

They might have been the best that year if Rodman was healthy. Maybe not as good as the Spurs of 0304, but elite for sure. And that is with an above average perimeter defender (except maybe Elliot at times).

Tell you what...take Cassell and Elie off that Rockets team and make Pop our coach and we'll see a different result in that series.

[Nikos]

TC was still a good low post defender in 1993-94, he pushed his man off the block as well as anyone in the league from what I remember.

I agree with the Rodman and Robinson part, but I still think mings was a good defensive player for them for a bit.

Yes, I can understand why they were never elite on D or good enough to win a le in 1993-94. Poor perimeter defense kept them from being a le contender that year. Also the fact they did not have much diversity in their offense on the perimeter in 1993-94.

[BronxCowboy]

Which is why I do not understand why they were not as dominant as a team defensively as they are now. Was their backcourt/swingman defense atrocious compared to today's perimeter D?

I would say that the Spurs definitely have better perimeter D now than they did then. But the Admiral OWNED the paint on every defensive possession before he got hurt. I think Whottt mentioned seeing him block three shots in a row . . . I saw that too, more than once. Only Hakeem was in the same category at the time.

[whottt]

If there is any one who has questions about what kind of teams those were without David Robinson I have an experiment for you...

If you can find a site...You go take every team that won a le in Drob's prime, just the era of 89-95... find the games where their best star was injured or not on the team...and then look at the W-L record of those teams without their guy.

And then compare it to Drob's teams...and we don't even have to use the 96-97 season....

I gurantee you those other guys teams, even in years they didn't win a le...had a better record, my guess is a winning record, than the Spurs without Drob.

This means Hakeem.
This means Magic.
This means Bird.
This means Barkley.

And this means Jordan.

And by the way, this means Duncan as well.

I saw more wins than losses last year when Duncan was injured...I saw wins when Hakeem was injured, I saw 55 wins with Jordan not on his team for the entire year...I never saw anything but losses when Drob was not on the court for the Spurs.


And Exs...Duncan is not some unstoppable post season demon...whose will to win overcomes all odds....

Duncan's numbers suck when he gets doubled and get no perimeter help as well...

Duncan was held to 5 points in the playoffs the first year we won a le..and we won that game...he was held to 9 points against the Lakers in 01, he had a 10 TO game against LA in 02 just getting doubled for the 4th quarter.

We blew 4 4th quarter double digit leads in 02 against LA with Smitty chucking up bricks...when did Drob do that? No matter how overmatched we were?


Duncan he had ty numbers in that Phoenix series the year we won the le andhe was getting doubled...he's not some unstoppable offensive force in the playoffs if his guys aren't hitting shots. No one is...not Shaq, not Wilt, Not Kareem, no one is. Drob may not have dfined himself by winning as much as a lot of guys...that doesn't mean he wasn't trying just as hard.

[ALVAREZ6]

why does everyone type so much, i cant read all that.

[Nikos]

I am not disputing Drob's greatness as an NBA player, I am just trying to understand how good his support was.

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan. But I do acknowledge that a few regular seasons he had were as good as it gets statistically in terms of impact on both ends of the floor and W-L's created by an individual player.

Drob was as good as it gets in the regular season in the mid 90's. In the playoffs he did not always have the support, but I still think he would be regarded as one of the great players of all time if he won the le in 1994-95. He would probably be held in a higher regard than Hakeem right now. Sure Hakeem had a more clutch supporting cast, but I still think that 95 WCF series was winnable.

[whottt]

Skip over my posts and you won't have to read as much, I get carried away on this topic more than any other...but..you'll know the true score if you read mine.

[whottt]

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan.

.

You know what? I don't think any Drob fans have ever tried to argue that he was miles better than Shaq, or Hakeem, especially Hakeem, or Duncan...only that he was the same caliber of player, every bit the same caliber of player...and the reasons he didn't win had a lot more to do with his supporting cast and the way the Spurs franchise was run at that time than it did with any lack of desire to win on his part...

I mean if you want to blame him you can blame him for certain things, for not putting enough pressure on the Spurs to surround him with talent to win a championship....but those things have nothing to do with what he did on the court...On the court he was as good as any of the bigmen that played during his career..he carried lesser talent better than just about any of them IMO...and he played harder night in and night out during the regular season than any of them.

[smeagol]

Skip over my posts and you won't have to read as much, I get carried away on this topic more than any other...but..you'll know the true score if you read mine.

Your posts, which sometimes are a mixture between poetry and smack, are just fine.

The posts I hate to read are those long articles, specially in the political forum.

[Brodels]

Either way, I still do not think he is miles better as a player than either Hakeem or Duncan.

Hakeem was better than David.

[Nikos]

Hakeem was better than David.

I actually think so too, but the edge is not huge IMO.

But for the sake of the argument with Whott I used those terms.

I would rank Hakeem #1 by a slight margin, and I would say Shaq and Drob are not far behind. Maybe I give Shaq the edge over Drob only cause he had better results. But overall I feel all three are very close.

Duncan should have his own legacy if he can win a le with this crew.

[whottt]

I actually think so too, but the edge is not huge IMO.

But for the sake of the argument with Whott I used those terms.

I would rank Hakeem #1 by a slight margin, and I would say Shaq and Drob are not far behind. Maybe I give Shaq the edge over Drob only cause he had better results. But overall I feel all three are very close.

Duncan should have his own legacy if he can win a le with this crew.

It's too hard to argue against Hakeem because his career stats are awesome and he beat every other great center of his era...including Kareem. Besides it's another topic entirely and I usually only do it against head Rocket fans or DRob haters.

Just know...Hakeem got to play with Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen on the same team and came away ringless. Hakeem had not 1 but 2 AS guards on that 94-95 team...A guy who was or would be an AS guard has beent he common element to every NBA champion in history with the exception of the 98-99 Spurs...(Jury is still out on the 02-03 Spurs and Last years Pistons)

Just know, Drob had a 32-12 record head to head against Hakeem. And that Hakeem had a season in which he was healthy and failed to make the playoffs.

And just be sure you guys put Hakeem over Shaq for the same reasons you do over DRob...one playoff series against the defending champs....Hakeem swept Shaq that year.

Hakeem may have been better, but it's not like Drob doesn't belong on the court with him and in the same class...Hakeem, Drob and Kareem make up an elite class of Center...the Super Center...who could do it all on both sides of the ball. Wilt probably deserves inclusion into this club but I don't have his defensive stats...so Wilt just gets to be in his own club as the greatest player ever IMO.


For a soft guy who didn't care about the game, who didn't love the game, who choked and who had to be provoked into playing hard...

Drob had one of a good career...as many rings as Hakeem, beat Hakeem by nearly a 3-1 margin in their head to head meetings....and Hakeem had some pretty decent teamates as well.

[GoSpurs21]

Hakeem may have been slighty better than Big Dave, but at least Dave took the high ground and went out a champion instead of milking money well after his playing days were over.

By the way when Kareem lost to Hakeem he was in his 50s and Hakeem was in his mid 20s.

[whottt]

Your posts, which sometimes are a mixture between poetry and smack, are just fine

LOL thanks smeagol . I tend to like reading long arguments myself, and if other people are doing them I don't post as much.

[Brodels]

You know, I do believe that Hakeem was slightly better than DRob, but I expected a lot more people on this forum to vehemently disagree. I started a battle blog a while back with the le "DRob was Hakeem's " and nobody took it one. I'm surprised by that.

[exstatic]

I think Snaqs legacy will suffer in Miami. Those les in LA will be revealed to be Shaq/Kobe les instead of SHAQ/kobe ones, as he would have had us believe. David fared very well against Snaq until his back was injured and basicly held his own after that. I would give David an edge in both the smarts and athleticism departments, basicly because Snaq ate his way out of the latter and never had the former.

[ZStomp]

David.
Well I know that maybe is not a good idea to talk about that in here.
But I want to know yours opinion.

Thy are different players but wchich one was more valuable to this team?

I would have to say Tim because DROB is not part of this team.