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  1. #126
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    8 of the top 15 players per RPM are PGs (they are also the majority in every other advanced stat category you can think of). The really only successful "wing" player since the Warriors took hold of the league has been Lebron, and he plays more like a PG than anything else (Warriors aren't built around Durant, they're built around Curry. He is still the primary catalyst for that entire offense). PGs have become the most important position in the game because the pick-and-roll is the most dangerous offensive set in the game, and the pick-and-roll centers around ball handling and passing, two PG centric skills. Then add into that the ability to shoot from distance off the dribble (Curry, Harden, Lilliard, etc) for further impact. And you know who has been arguably Boston's most important player in their run following all the injuries? PG Terry Rozier. The primary wings on the Celtics are having less game impact than Aron Baynes, despite the decent per game stats.
    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

    The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

    Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

    The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

    After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.

  2. #127
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

    The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

    Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

    The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

    After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.
    hate clowns who are oversized playing out of position like giannis, is there a reason why his playing pg?

  3. #128
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

    The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

    Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

    Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

    The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

    After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.
    Don't want to hear about Kawhi. He's irrelevant right now and has no playoff feathers in his cap in the post-Duncan era. In fact, it was a PG who sunk his 2015 run while he was getting outplayed by Matt Barnes. Lebron has always been a PG, since high school, even though he's built like a wing. He brings the ball up, he sets up and initiates the offense, he controls possession. Harden has also always played like a PG in the same vein. Just look at his time of possession stats. Same with Simmons. Size doesn't betray position. Durant? Has never not played alongside a top 3 PG in the league, and has never been the center of the offense for either team. The Warriors didn't need him, he needed the Warriors.

    Lowry Is a true PG, Rozier is a true PG, Lillard is a true PG. Holiday has a higher RPM than Cousins.

  4. #129
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Don't want to hear about Kawhi. He's irrelevant right now and has no playoff feathers in his cap in the post-Duncan era. In fact, it was a PG who sunk his 2015 run while he was getting outplayed by Matt Barnes. Lebron has always been a PG, since high school, even though he's built like a wing. He brings the ball up, he sets up and initiates the offense, he controls possession. Harden has also always played like a PG in the same vein. Just look at his time of possession stats. Same with Simmons. Size doesn't betray position. Durant? Has never not played alongside a top 3 PG in the league, and has never been the center of the offense for either team. The Warriors didn't need him, he needed the Warriors.

    Lowry Is a true PG, Rozier is a true PG, Lillard is a true PG. Holiday has a higher RPM than Cousins.
    You missed the point completely. The "even though he's built like a wing" phrase is not irrelevant to the discussion. It's, in fact, my whole ing point.

    We can go back and forth on what cons utes a PG, for example: was Steve Kerr more of a PG than Jordan back in the 96/98 Bulls? If we contemplate on the fact that all Kerr did was stand on a corner waiting for catch and shoot opportunities, while Jordan was the one with the ball on his hands doing most of the playmaking, we have to say that Jordan (and Pippen) was the actual PG of that team, yet "officialy" Kerr was listed as a PG because he was a midget and Jordan was listed as a wing because he was 6'6''.

    And that's what I'm talking about. Forget about who has the ball on his hands the most, the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team. So this semantics game of who is and who isn't a PG is useless. When I said "this was a wings league, not a PG's league" all I was refering to was to the fact that not being a midget is still a huge part of the game. Proven by the fact that, out of the ten best players in the league, only two are below 6'6''. Curry, who is the greatest shooter of all time by an infinite ass margin, and Westbrook, who is an athletic freak that plays way bigger than he is. It has to tell you something that, for as good and talented as they are, guys like Irving, Wall, Lillard and the such aren't really considered as players capable of leading teams to championships. That's a feat still reserved for players 6'6'' and above (with the exception of Curry).

  5. #130
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    You missed the point completely. The "even though he's built like a wing" phrase is not irrelevant to the discussion. It's, in fact, my whole ing point.

    We can go back and forth on what cons utes a PG, for example: was Steve Kerr more of a PG than Jordan back in the 96/98 Bulls? If we contemplate on the fact that all Kerr did was stand on a corner waiting for catch and shoot opportunities, while Jordan was the one with the ball on his hands doing most of the playmaking, we have to say that Jordan (and Pippen) was the actual PG of that team, yet "officialy" Kerr was listed as a PG because he was a midget and Jordan was listed as a wing because he was 6'6''.

    And that's what I'm talking about. Forget about who has the ball on his hands the most, the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team. So this semantics game of who is and who isn't a PG is useless. When I said "this was a wings league, not a PG's league" all I was refering to was to the fact that not being a midget is still a huge part of the game. Proven by the fact that, out of the ten best players in the league, only two are below 6'6''. Curry, who is the greatest shooter of all time by an infinite ass margin, and Westbrook, who is an athletic freak that plays way bigger than he is. It has to tell you something that, for as good and talented as they are, guys like Irving, Wall, Lillard and the such aren't really considered as players capable of leading teams to championships. That's a feat still reserved for players 6'6'' and above (with the exception of Curry).
    Not really. A PG has a clear role. He is the main ball handler and set up man for the team. Wings are called "wings" because they play and set up on the flanks during any given possession. Yes, Steve Kerr was a wing. Furthermore, the Triangle was a system where ball handling wasn't that important and never needed a great ball handler to execute. It centered on quick ball and player movement within said "triangles" to create mismatches and create open shots. The Triangle is also outdated for the very reason that it isn't PG centric and is a post heavy offense. Positions listings have always been irrelevant to what the actual role of a player is on the team. "Wings" are players like James Worthy, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Durant, Larry Bird, Ray Allen, and yes, Jordan and Pippen (they might've been the primary ball handlers, but the offense they were playing in really was something any player with average ball handling skills could set up. Jordan nor Pippen would be able to run an offense that relied on passing from dribble-drive penetration, probing, or the pick-and-roll).


    the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team.

    If you mean perimeter star, best scorer/most impactful wing player, then not at all. Dennis Johnson/Larry Bird, Stockton/Hornacek, Avery Johnson/Sean Elliott, Mark Jackson/Reggie Miller, Chauncey Billups/Rip Hamilton to name le/finals teams. Irving, Wall, et al aren't "capable" because we're in an era of stacked super-teams, not because they are inherently deficient for the task.

    That said, I'm not talking about height of the player, but style of play. If you don't have a perimeter player on the roster that isn't a great ball handler who can also pass, shoot from distance off the dribble, and run the pick-and-roll, your team has a bigger hill to climb than those who do. That's what I mean when I say it's a PG's league. Look at the date when I made this thread. The preceding le teams of the last decade weren't built around players of that mold. The mid-00s Spurs were very much 4-down, grit-and-grind, with Parker and Manu playing off Duncan most of the time. Shaq/Wade. Post + penetration (Wade was a terrible long distance shooter then). Gasol/Kobe Lakers. Kobe has always been just an average ball handler and prefers his static mid-post game over anything else. The non-shooting/non-scoring Jason Kidd was the PG of the 2011 Mavs, and their offense went through Dirk in the mid-post (he only took 2.4 3s per game in the playoffs) with Terry and Marion spotting up.

    The two peat Heat is when we started to get a sense of the space-and-pace era to come, with Lebron, a PG, playing the central role in being a threat off the dribble in every area (from running pick-and-rolls, to penetration, to deep jumpers off the dribble), but I didn't sound the alarm because Lebron=once-in-a-generation and all that and he plays a total game. He can shoot for 3, mid-range, penetration, post, etc. Those Heat also didn't spam 3s. 2014 Spurs were heavy on ball-movement and generated those 3s with side-to-side/inside out passing, but again, that style of play was a hint at things to come, even though that offense wasn't at all PG centric, with Duncan still the team's most valuable player over the run. Then the Warriors.

    After the Warriors? What do all the remaining teams have in common? A ball-handling PG who is threat is every area of the game, shooting, penetration, pick-and-roll, etc. To clarify, when I say "it's a PG's league," what I mean is that a team isn't going to resurrect something like 4-down, the Triangle, the Princeton Offense, etc and have success, since those systems are PG agnostic. And the reason those systems decentralize the PG is to make them harder to defend, allowing a team to attack from any angle and any player. Now it's HORNS 90% of the time because of how p-n-r centric it is. It's also stupidly simple compared to the others. Now why would systems centered around the PG be harder to defend today than more dimensional and complex offenses like the Triangle and Princeton? The 3 point shot. The other systems work inside-out and seek to create high percentage shots close to the basket, while something like HORNS is outside-in, depending on the attention a Curry, Harden, Lebron draws out of the middle to create lanes and spacing. If the defense sags/goes under the picks to cut off penetration and roll men, you get killed with the 3 off the dribble by those types of players. This is why the pick-and-roll (or any general screen heavy offense featuring a shooting PG as the ball-handler) is so powerful. It forces a defense into a dilemma (give up penetration/close out on 3) it can't hope to defend at the same time. And the engine behind it is an elite ball handler who can shoot. Yes, all effective offenses will force a defense into a dilemma, but what makes the current style so effective is that you can't ball deny, trap, or really double team a PG in the same way you can a big or traditional wing. They can dribble out of trouble into space (again, why ball handling is so important today) where the others can't.
    Last edited by midnightpulp; 05-21-2018 at 05:36 AM.

  6. #131
    Veteran Raven's Avatar
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    it's been a SF's league for a decade now, the pg narrative is pretty laughable, and it started and ended with Derrick Rose's MVP year.

  7. #132
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Not really. A PG has a clear role. He is the main ball handler and set up man for the team. Wings are called "wings" because they play and set up on the flanks during any given possession. Yes, Steve Kerr was a wing. Furthermore, the Triangle was a system where ball handling wasn't that important and never needed a great ball handler to execute. It centered on quick ball and player movement within said "triangles" to create mismatches and create open shots. The Triangle is also outdated for the very reason that it isn't PG centric and is a post heavy offense. Positions listings have always been irrelevant to what the actual role of a player is on the team. "Wings" are players like James Worthy, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Durant, Larry Bird, Ray Allen, and yes, Jordan and Pippen (they might've been the primary ball handlers, but the offense they were playing in really was something any player with average ball handling skills could set up. Jordan nor Pippen would be able to run an offense that relied on passing from dribble-drive penetration, probing, or the pick-and-roll).





    If you mean perimeter star, best scorer/most impactful wing player, then not at all. Dennis Johnson/Larry Bird, Stockton/Hornacek, Avery Johnson/Sean Elliott, Mark Jackson/Reggie Miller, Chauncey Billups/Rip Hamilton to name le/finals teams. Irving, Wall, et al aren't "capable" because we're in an era of stacked super-teams, not because they are inherently deficient for the task.

    That said, I'm not talking about height of the player, but style of play. If you don't have a perimeter player on the roster that isn't a great ball handler who can also pass, shoot from distance off the dribble, and run the pick-and-roll, your team has a bigger hill to climb than those who do. That's what I mean when I say it's a PG's league. Look at the date when I made this thread. The preceding le teams of the last decade weren't built around players of that mold. The mid-00s Spurs were very much 4-down, grit-and-grind, with Parker and Manu playing off Duncan most of the time. Shaq/Wade. Post + penetration (Wade was a terrible long distance shooter then). Gasol/Kobe Lakers. Kobe has always been just an average ball handler and prefers his static mid-post game over anything else. The non-shooting/non-scoring Jason Kidd was the PG of the 2011 Mavs, and their offense went through Dirk in the mid-post (he only took 2.4 3s per game in the playoffs) with Terry and Marion spotting up.

    The two peat Heat is when we started to get a sense of the space-and-pace era to come, with Lebron, a PG, playing the central role in being a threat off the dribble in every area (from running pick-and-rolls, to penetration, to deep jumpers off the dribble), but I didn't sound the alarm because Lebron=once-in-a-generation and all that and he plays a total game. He can shoot for 3, mid-range, penetration, post, etc. Those Heat also didn't spam 3s. 2014 Spurs were heavy on ball-movement and generated those 3s with side-to-side/inside out passing, but again, that style of play was a hint at things to come, even though that offense wasn't at all PG centric, with Duncan still the team's most valuable player over the run. Then the Warriors.

    After the Warriors? What do all the remaining teams have in common? A ball-handling PG who is threat is every area of the game, shooting, penetration, pick-and-roll, etc. To clarify, when I say "it's a PG's league," what I mean is that a team isn't going to resurrect something like 4-down, the Triangle, the Princeton Offense, etc and have success, since those systems are PG agnostic. And the reason those systems decentralize the PG is to make them harder to defend, allowing a team to attack from any angle and any player. Now it's HORNS 90% of the time because of how p-n-r centric it is. It's also stupidly simple compared to the others. Now why would systems centered around the PG be harder to defend today than more dimensional and complex offenses like the Triangle and Princeton? The 3 point shot. The other systems work inside-out and seek to create high percentage shots close to the basket, while something like HORNS is outside-in, depending on the attention a Curry, Harden, Lebron draws out of the middle to create lanes and spacing. If the defense sags/goes under the picks to cut off penetration and roll men, you get killed with the 3 off the dribble by those types of players. This is why the pick-and-roll (or any general screen heavy offense featuring a shooting PG as the ball-handler) is so powerful. It forces a defense into a dilemma (give up penetration/close out on 3) it can't hope to defend at the same time. And the engine behind it is an elite ball handler who can shoot. Yes, all effective offenses will force a defense into a dilemma, but what makes the current style so effective is that you can't ball deny, trap, or really double team a PG in the same way you can a big or traditional wing. They can dribble out of trouble into space (again, why ball handling is so important today) where the others can't.
    Why do you love cyclic, useless arguments so much son? It's a PG league, right? So I guess you think teams built around players like Irving and Lillard would fare better than teams built around players like Durant and Kawhi, right?

  8. #133
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Why do you love cyclic, useless arguments so much son? It's a PG league, right? So I guess you think teams built around players like Irving and Lillard would fare better than teams built around players like Durant and Kawhi, right?
    What's Leonard done since being "built around?" Durant has never played on a team without an elite PG. And why do you love hand waving so much when you lose an argument? Just say "I meant it's not a midget's league" and be done with it. But the fact is if the best player on the team doesn't play like a pg, he's destined to be the sidekick.

  9. #134
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    What's Leonard done since being "built around?" Durant has never played on a team without an elite PG. And why do you love hand waving so much when you lose an argument? Just say "I meant it's not a midget's league" and be done with it. But the fact is if the best player on the team doesn't play like a pg, he's destined to be the sidekick.
    2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

    Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

    Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.

  10. #135
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

    Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

    Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.
    not trying to interrupt the measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.

  11. #136
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    not trying to interrupt the measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.
    Well, you are wrong.

    Draymond Green leads the Warriors in both assists and touches per game. In fact, he's second overall in the entire NBA on that second stat.

    https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...=TOUCHES&dir=1

    Edit: Sorry, that is for the playoffs. He's 17th for the regular season, still the number one Warrior ball handler though.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-21-2018 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #137
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

    Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

    Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.
    Loaded question. You're comparing an all-time great wing to 2nd tier all star level PGs. Here's a better question: Jimmy Butler or Lillard? I pick Lillard, even if Butler's RPM is nice. Draymond the primary ball handler.

    Curry leads the Warriors in drives: http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/...t=DRIVES&dir=1

    Curry leads the Warriors in time of possession: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches..._OF_POSS&dir=1

    Curry leads the starters in dribbles per touch: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches...ER_TOUCH&dir=1

    Those are all ball handling stats. Touches do not equal ball handling duties. As you'll see, Draymond doesn't drive, he averages just a little over 1 dribble per touch. Along with KD, he's the Warriors top post option. The primary ball handler is the player who brings the ball up, sets up the offense, and generates offense from the dribble. Draymond doesn't do that. Curry does.

  13. #138
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Loaded question. You're comparing an all-time great wing to 2nd tier all star level PGs. Here's a better question: Jimmy Butler or Lillard? I pick Lillard, even if Butler's RPM is nice. Draymond the primary ball handler.

    Curry leads the Warriors in drives: http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/...t=DRIVES&dir=1

    Curry leads the Warriors in time of possession: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches..._OF_POSS&dir=1

    Curry leads the starters in dribbles per touch: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches...ER_TOUCH&dir=1

    Those are all ball handling stats. Touches do not equal ball handling duties. As you'll see, Draymond doesn't drive, he averages just a little over 1 dribble per touch. Along with KD, he's the Warriors top post option. The primary ball handler is the player who brings the ball up, sets up the offense, and generates offense from the dribble. Draymond doesn't do that. Curry does.
    Didn't you say Lebron has been the PG of the Cavs for the last 4 seasons? Well, last season Irving lead the Cavs on all those things you say determine the real PG of a team, so what's gonna be son? Pick a lane and stay there.
    Last edited by DAF86; 05-21-2018 at 10:50 PM.

  14. #139
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Oh, and there is no "changing the definition of a PG" to arbitrarily back my argument. PGs have very clear roles. They bring the ball up, set up the offense, and quarterback the offense off the dribble usually from the top of the key since that's the area of the court where they best have an overall view of the offense/defense and have the most spacing to work with. Roster listings are irrelevant. Steve Kerr was not a in' PG. Patty Mills isn't a PG. Wings are called wings because they, you know, set up in spot up positions at the wing areas of the court and/or flank the PG when he pushes the ball up during a fast break (James Worthy, Drexler, etc). Saying this is a "wing's" league suggests that the league is being dominated by Ray Allen or Kobe types. No. The most effective players in the modern NBA are those players, despite size and nominal position listing, who are "5 tool players," in that they can dribble, drive, shoot off the dribble from distance, pass, and set up the offense from that top of the key of position (this is important as it allows for the most versatility in the pick-and-roll).

  15. #140
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Didn't you said Lebron has been the PG of the Cavs for the last 4 seasons? Well, last season Irving lead the Cavs on all those things you say determine the real PG of a team, so what's gonna be son? Pick a lane and stay there.
    There's nothing preventing a team having two PGs on the court. The Triangle would basically have 2 SGs on the court. Harden beats CP3 in all those stats as well, but CP3 is definitely a PG. They basically take turns in that regard, just like Irving/Lebron did. I can easily flip this on you. Harden is a "wing" since it's a "wing's" league, yet he leads CP3 in all ball handling categories. Pick a lane. I don't agree with that because I'm not an obstinate deflector like you afraid to be proven wrong. Houston runs an offense with 2 PGs. Simple as that. Seems you're hung up on position listings from roster sheets.

  16. #141
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Oh, and there is no "changing the definition of a PG" to arbitrarily back my argument. PGs have very clear roles. They bring the ball up, set up the offense, and quarterback the offense off the dribble usually from the top of the key since that's the area of the court where they best have an overall view of the offense/defense and have the most spacing to work with. Roster listings are irrelevant. Steve Kerr was not a in' PG. Patty Mills isn't a PG. Wings are called wings because they, you know, set up in spot up positions at the wing areas of the court and/or flank the PG when he pushes the ball up during a fast break (James Worthy, Drexler, etc). Saying this is a "wing's" league suggests that the league is being dominated by Ray Allen or Kobe types. No. The most effective players in the modern NBA are those players, despite size and nominal position listing, who are "5 tool players," in that they can dribble, drive, shoot off the dribble from distance, pass, and set up the offense from that top of the key of position (this is important as it allows for the most versatility in the pick-and-roll).
    Well, Patty Mills leads Manu in 2 of the 3 categories that you brought up as the onda that determine who the PG is. I guess that means Mills is more of a PG than Manu is, right?

  17. #142
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    not trying to interrupt the measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.
    He comes up with the most incredible bull in arguments to try and "win." Only an idiot would think Draymond is the "primary ball handler" of the Warriors. He gets the majority of his touches in the paint, as you'll see: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches..._TOUCHES&dir=1

  18. #143
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Well, Patty Mills leads Manu in 2 of the 3 categories that you brought up as the onda that determine who the PG is. I guess that means Mills is more of a PG than Manu is, right?
    Manu isn't a PG, even though he has some PG type skills. They're both wings. Parker triples and doubles both of them up on those ball-handling stats. He's the PG. This is from 2014 when Manu wasn't 70 and still effective:

    http://stats.nba.com/players/touches..._OF_POSS&dir=1

    And cross compare Manu and Mills' ball handling stats to PGs around the league.

  19. #144
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    There's nothing preventing a team having two PGs on the court. The Triangle would basically have 2 SGs on the court. Harden beats CP3 in all those stats as well, but CP3 is definitely a PG. They basically take turns in that regard, just like Irving/Lebron did. I can easily flip this on you. Harden is a "wing" since it's a "wing's" league, yet he leads CP3 in all ball handling categories. Pick a lane. I don't agree with that because I'm not an obstinate deflector like you afraid to be proven wrong. Houston runs an offense with 2 PGs. Simple as that. Seems you're hung up on position listings from roster sheets.
    Actually, it's the other way around. I have already conceded that a guy like Lebron is the actual PG of his team. The problem I have with you is that you seem to have no problem acknowleding Lebron is a defacto PG, but then try to say that guys like Pippen and Jordan back on the days weren't also defacto PG's, hanging to the dishonest idea that the triangle "didn't need PG's" as if Jordan had never played a pick and roll in his life.

    Elite wing players have always been defacto PG's. Kobe was the playmaker of the Lakers, not Fisher. Iverson was the playmaker of the Sixers, not Snow. McGrady was the playmaker of the Magic, not Armstrong. And like that I can give tons and tons of examples.

    Going back to the original point, we actually agree on the fact that the type of player that is best suited to lead a successful team on today's NBA is a "5 tool player", on what we disagree is on you categorizing that as a PG type player (hence the PG league reference), when in reality the players that utilize those "5 tools" the best are players who are 6'6'' or above, heights under which wing players tend to be listed.

    One more thing that you have to remember is that now, more than ever, not having defensive liabilities is huge and size on the perimeter is prioritized more than ever. That's just another thing for which, calling today's NBA a "PG league" is mistake, imho.

  20. #145
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    He comes up with the most incredible bull in arguments to try and "win." Only an idiot would think Draymond is the "primary ball handler" of the Warriors. He gets the majority of his touches in the paint, as you'll see: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches..._TOUCHES&dir=1
    Those "paint" touches are plays where Draymond gets the ball at the top of the key, or elbows, so that he can read the defense and take what is given to him; while the other players, including Curry, run around and set screens for each other. What action sounds more "pointguardy" to you, reading the defense or running around to get an open look?

  21. #146
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Actually, it's the other way around. I have already conceded that a guy like Lebron is the actual PG of his team. The problem I have with you is that you seem to have no problem acknowleding Lebron is a defacto PG, but then try to say that guys like Pippen and Jordan back on the days weren't also defacto PG's, hanging to the dishonest idea that the triangle "didn't need PG's" as if Jordan had never played a pick and roll in his life.

    Elite wing players have always been defacto PG's. Kobe was the playmaker of the Lakers, not Fisher. Iverson was the playmaker of the Sixers, not Snow. McGrady was the playmaker of the Magic, not Armstrong. And like that I can give tons and tons of examples.

    Going back to the original point, we actually agree on the fact that the type of player that is best suited to lead a successful team on today's NBA is a "5 tool player", on what we disagree is on you categorizing that as a PG type player (hence the PG league reference), when in reality the players that utilize those "5 tools" the best are players who are 6'6'' or above, heights under which wing players tend to be listed.

    One more thing that you have to remember is that now, more than ever, not having defensive liabilities is huge and size on the perimeter is prioritized more than ever. That's just another thing for which, calling today's NBA a "PG league" is mistake, imho.
    Calling the Triangle "PG agnostic" is not a dishonest idea at all. The whole system was designed to prioritize ball movement over "dribbling" to initiate the offense. Look here. This is the triangle in a nuts . No single player is "dribbling" the ball up and initiating the offense that way. The ball first moves around the "Triangle" and then to Jordan in an iso on the wing. Then back out to reset (tried to make a gif out of this possession, but it's locking up).

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Look where Jordan is. Look who touched the ball first (Kukoc). And Scottie during this possession didn't dribble, probe, or drive once. Now contrast it with how Stockton was running the Jazz offense. Dribble, dribble, dribble into a pick-and-roll play, just like today. If it's a "wing's" league in the traditional definition of how wings play, why aren't teams dominating with the Triangle? It's arguably the most effective offense for a traditional wing to play in, which is why I argued for it to implemented for Kawhi, since the fanboys upstairs were tired of him being parked in spot up positions during HORNS and other pick-and-roll sets. Reason? Because of the power of the 3, the most effective offenses today are built around players who can dribble, since pick-and-roll is dribble centric. What mold of players best run pick-and-rolls? PGs (who can shoot).

  22. #147
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Those "paint" touches are plays where Draymond gets the ball at the top of the key, or elbows, so that he can read the defense and take what is given to him; while the other players, including Curry, run around and set screens for each other. What action sounds more "pointguardy" to you, reading the defense or running around to get an open look?
    That sounds like a player properly playing the high post. There's no arguing this. Steph is the catalyst for that offense. Their record without him was 17-14.

  23. #148
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Calling the Triangle "PG agnostic" is not a dishonest idea at all. The whole system was designed to prioritize ball movement over "dribbling" to initiate the offense. Look here. This is the triangle in a nuts . No single player is "dribbling" the ball up and initiating the offense that way. The ball first moves around the "Triangle" and then to Jordan in an iso on the wing. Then back out to reset (tried to make a gif out of this possession, but it's locking up).

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Look where Jordan is. Look who touched the ball first (Kukoc). And Scottie during this possession didn't dribble, probe, or drive once. Now contrast it with how Stockton was running the Jazz offense. Dribble, dribble, dribble into a pick-and-roll play, just like today. If it's a "wing's" league in the traditional definition of how wings play, why aren't teams dominating with the Triangle? It's arguably the most effective offense for a traditional wing to play in, which is why I argued for it to implemented for Kawhi, since the fanboys upstairs were tired of him being parked in spot up positions during HORNS and other pick-and-roll sets. Reason? Because of the power of the 3, the most effective offenses today are built around players who can dribble, since pick-and-roll is dribble centric. What mold of players best run pick-and-rolls? PGs (who can shoot).
    I would say the trinagle is more about organizing pieces and setting a structure than "ball movement". The triangle can get pretty stagnant with a lot of looking and standing around for role players. A system like the Princeton offense is more about "ball movement".

    The drving on the tringle offense came from the isolations that this system created, or are you now going to tell me that guys like Jordan and Pippen didn't drive to the basket?

    I do agree that there isn't much room for typical plays like a pick and roll, but then again, many times Phil Jackson teams would go away from the triangle offense and just run some basic pick and rolls. I'm sure many Lakers fans here can attest to that.

    And then again, how many teams had PG's that attacked the basket and ran pick and rolls time and time again? You won't confuse most PG's of that era (like Avery Johnson, Eric Show, Charlie Ward, Chris Child, Derek Fisher, etc) with driving threats, tbh. Were they not PG's because they didn't have these features?

  24. #149
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Further point on the Triangle. Derek Rose didn't like it because it "took the ball out of his hands," and he could play his typical PG style of driving, dribbling, and creating off the pick-and-roll.

    “I felt we had a sense of the triangle when we came out of camp,” Rose said. “I pick up things quick. Me being gone away at trial was a problem. You just pass the ball to the top and run to the corner. How hard could that be? That’s not hard at all.”

    Rose wants to get buckets and by that being said, he isn’t going to just settle for passing the rock all day without driving to the basket at least 10 to 11 times in one game.

    Rose is a scorer, he is a go-to player, as he was with the Chicago Bulls. He isn’t going to set screens all day in offense, roll, cut, and pass till there is an open man. He is going to pick and roll with his big, drive to the basket, look for an open man on the perimeter, pass the ball if necessary, zoom his way through every fast break and make plays through the quickly exerted offense. He is a scoring point guard who needs to be on a team where the pace is never slow.
    And that's exactly how all the top perimeter players in the league start the offense now, thus it being a "PG's league."

  25. #150
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    That sounds like a player properly playing the high post. There's no arguing this. Steph is the catalyst for that offense. Their record without him was 17-14.
    Sure, but not specifically for doing "PG stuff". Actually I would argue that his gravity as an off-ball player is even more relevant than him just dribbling the ball up, getting a screen and launching a 30 footer.

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