Does tanking ruin a team?

[Extra Stout]

I was thinking about the advanced metrics that show how obviously better the Spurs are when Wembanyama gets to play with Tre Jones. The Spurs, having an analytics department, likewise are aware of this, but choose rarely if ever to play them together, in favor of terrible experimental lineups.

So it’s pretty blatant tanking. My thought is that the players are not stupid, rather that they’re probably aware that Pop is not putting them in the best position to win. So my question is, how does that affect the players? Do they play less hard knowing that the coach and front office are more interested in what happens in the draft lottery than what happens night to night during the season? Do they figure, what’s the point in expending the effort on that defensive rotation knowing that Pop may just cut my minutes if I do to ensure losses?

And is it possible to just flip the switch under that same coach once the franchise decides it’s time to stop tanking? Can they ever take him seriously knowing that he sandbagged entire seasons? Can they trust what he says? Or is an eventual coaching change in a couple of years part of the process?

[BacktoBasics]

I think it depends on how the staff and organization sell it. You don’t sell the players a losing season and deliberate attempt to stifle their best efforts and selves.

You sell the big picture. The long game. Building organically and finding long term chemistry. The development of each player in areas that aren’t strengths and that selling out our cap freedom and draft capital for quick fixes isn’t in everyone’s best interest. Patience and letting things play out is the most prudent approach right now.

[MultiTroll]

Can they ever take him seriously knowing that he sandbagged entire seasons? Can they trust what he says?

Do they take him seriously now?

"I'll retire when Tim Duncan retires."

"Excuse me for a second," Popovich said to the crowd. "Can we stop all the booing and let these guys play? Have a little class. That's not who we are. Knock off the booing."


"I think anybody that knows anything about sports -- you don't poke the bear," Popovich said.

[ElNono]

Ruin a team? No. Sours relationship with some players? Maybe.

[z0sa]

They’re professionals. Doesn’t mean they are company men who bleed silver and black. I think a lot of bad blood is already running under the surface quite honestly. The pressure on Wemby trickles down, and no one is or should blame Wemby for our current record. That leaves fingers to be pointed — if not overtly, surely some players are already thinking it.

[exstatic]

Doesn’t seem to have hurt the Thunder.

[KobesAchilles]

Only for the majority of the current roster. People say the Thunder or the 76ers but the got rid of most of their roster when they got good again. It won’t ruin VW or bench players. But losing 18 in a row, not playing proper positions, added pressure of always being blamed for losses, yeah that gets to young players… which is why they’ll be gone anyways

[CGD]

It probably can ruin certain players who are mentally weak, but that’s why you pay the ones you like and trade them to do right by them. Murray, White, and Keldon here soon.

This team will look so different in just 1 year much more 2 years. Keldon will be traded, Tre and Zach will probably move on after their deals or flipped, Wesley and the end of bench guys will be gone, Cedi/Doug/Graham gone. That’s like half the team right there.

I think Sochan and Branham will get to their second contracts, but I don’t think Malaki will be a long term fixture.

[Dex]

I wouldn't say it ruins a team, but it also isn't a foolproof strategy.

76ers took tanking to new heights and it still hasn't gotten them to the promised land. It took like 10 years to reach pretender status, and the only real asset they have left from "The Process" is Embiid.

Meanwhile, Detroit tried tanking and, well...23 straight losses speaks for itself.

In San Antonio's situation...they gutted the team for future assets and you have to say it worked because we got Wemby, but that wasn't expected to turn the team around overnight. This isn't a flash in the pan situation where you get a Tim Duncan and add him to a ready-built playoff team with a former MVP....they had to burn it down so they could start building on a new foundation.

I expected the team to be a bit better than it has shown so far, but not by much. 80% of these guys probably won't be with the Spurs in three years so only time will tell.

[NASpurs]

Doesn’t seem to have hurt the Thunder.

Probably because they have a competent GM and we don't.

[Dex]

Probably because they have a competent GM and we don't.

OKC is also on like year 4 from their tank.

We aren't even 1.5 years in yet.

Give it time, people.

[ginobilized]

I'd guess that the player's lucrative paychecks help soften the sting of losing. Rebuilding takes time, 3-4 years if done well.
The only player I really wonder about is Keldon. His body language and erratic play make me think that's just his personality or he is struggling with losing and/or his role.
Everyone else seems to be going along for the ride.

[John B]

We got Wemby didn’t we? And posed to add two more top 10 picks. The Thunder and Rockets are playing better after long-tanking. Yet the Pistons seem to be having difficulty righting the course. It depends on the coach and the management on how they use their high picks to build around, BPA or position, then signing vets to compliment and developing in GLeague affiliates. It’s a long process than compare to 10 years ago. Rookies are coming out 18, 19 year olds and most need developing. I think Pop has earned enough credibility to assure the players to buy in for the big picture. Spurs young players are getting the minutes than ever before, either with the Spurs or in Austin. It’s up to the players also to make the most of their minutes developing their games and learning from the experience. Kawhi, Dejounte, Derrick, Kyle, CoJo, Hill, not to mention Hofers TP and Manu. The Spurs have been very successful with these players to help sell Spurs development. So yup. It would depend both on the coach and management, and the players. But more on the management to draft the right players with strong characters to go through the long process unscathed and not easily frustrated. Wemby is very mature beyond his years and, in my opinion, has tremendous trust. I think that it helps that TP and Bobo were former Spurs and I’m sure have only good advice for him, to be patient and trust the process. I think it helps that Timmy and DRob are top players who played the same position. I think it helps that San Antonio is unlike Los Angeles or Madison Square Garden and the pressures that comes playing in the big market. All said, I think the odds are on the Spurs to make it good.

[CGD]

OKC is also on like year 4 from their tank.

We aren't even 1.5 years in yet.

Give it time, people.

Important point. What exactly has Presti won in the past 5 years other than the offseason People so eager to give him a pass because be looks like a Poindexter.

[Mal]

Tanking is not healthy. Does not matter if it's sitting guys or selling best players in order to put worst roster possible. In the long run, players would not be accustomed to play hard, every game, every possession.

[exstatic]

Important point. What exactly has Presti won in the past 5 years other than the offseason People so eager to give him a pass because be looks like a Poindexter.

They won 40 games last year, and are currently 2nd in the west. I’d call that progress, and the end of their tank.

[exstatic]

Tanking is not healthy. Does not matter if it's sitting guys or selling best players in order to put worst roster possible. In the long run, players would not be accustomed to play hard, every game, every possession.

That’s your opinion. It doesn’t seem to have hurt OKC to have two seasons of 20ish wins. They won 40 last year, and are currently 2 in the west standings.

[Extra Stout]

That’s your opinion. It doesn’t seem to have hurt OKC to have two seasons of 20ish wins. They won 40 last year, and are currently 2 in the west standings.

I think Daigneault doesn’t suffer the loss of credibility that Popovich does because of his youth and inexperience. He can plausibly say he was learning and growing along with the team. With Pop, it’s too obvious that he’s sandbagging.

And in the season they went 24-58 they showed tangible improvement, going from like a -11 net rating to about a -7. The Spurs remain historically bad even with Wembanyama.

I get how it makes sense, not just from the standpoint of the Spurs’ pick, but also with doing their best to make sure the Toronto pick conveys. However, I think that once the Spurs are ready to win again they’ll need to move on from Gregg Popovich. If they don’t, they won’t be able to turn it around because the players won’t take him seriously.

[Truckules]

OKC's 2 season tank is a bad comparison. For the 20-21 season, Shai was the top total scorer even though he only played 35 games. The rest of the roster was completely awful. The next highest scorer on the team was Darius Bazley. The season after that was the same. Shai played 56 games and Bazley was one of the top scorers. They turned it around as soon as they had Giddey and Jalen Williams and are now competing for a championship with Chet. OKC tanked via a bad roster and holding out their top player, not via bad lineups and development. They didn't have to sell their soul to tank.

That type of tank isn't viable anymore. The salary floor revenue penalty and the player participation policy that were introduced for 2023 have made it impossible to do that. You can't skimp on your roster anymore and you can't hold out players either. So the Spurs have to tank via bad lineups and development because that's the only way to tank anymore. However, the OKC tank does show that if you acquire the right players, the tank can work quickly.

[CorrectCrusader]

They’re professionals. Doesn’t mean they are company men who bleed silver and black. I think a lot of bad blood is already running under the surface quite honestly. The pressure on Wemby trickles down, and no one is or should blame Wemby for our current record. That leaves fingers to be pointed — if not overtly, surely some players are already thinking it.

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

[rascal]

OKC's 2 season tank is a bad comparison. For the 20-21 season, Shai was the top total scorer even though he only played 35 games. The rest of the roster was completely awful. The next highest scorer on the team was Darius Bazley. The season after that was the same. Shai played 56 games and Bazley was one of the top scorers. They turned it around as soon as they had Giddey and Jalen Williams and are now competing for a championship with Chet. OKC tanked via a bad roster and holding out their top player, not via bad lineups and development. They didn't have to sell their soul to tank.

That type of tank isn't viable anymore. The salary floor revenue penalty and the player participation policy that were introduced for 2023 have made it impossible to do that. You can't skimp on your roster anymore and you can't hold out players either. So the Spurs have to tank via bad lineups and development because that's the only way to tank anymore. However, the OKC tank does show that if you acquire the right players, the tank can work quickly.

Portland held out players last year.

[rascal]

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

That's on the players if they think they aren't good enough.

Players know all the time they have to play well because they can lose their position on the team if they don't.

[John B]

That's on the players if they think they aren't good enough.

Players know all the time they have to play well because they can lose their position on the team if they don't.

and audition for other teams if ever they are moved

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm not sure Pop's keeping Tre from playing with Wemby because he's tanking games. I think the horrible losses are the consequence of a lack of getting these guys prepared to compete.

I think it's Pop's stubbornness, and him thinking the 1st unit can spread the floor without Tre, and that Tre strengthens the bench. It might take him another 20 or 30 games to see that the two of them might work better on the same unit.

The roster overall is made for a tank, but I think the horrible in-game performances are a result of lack of talent and uninspired coaching right now, not a direct intention to tank. I'm not impressed by the coaching at all this year, and I can't buy into the theory that this is all just part of the intentional tank. Wasting Wemby's rookie year and not developing the sh!tty players around him at every opportunity to learn to pass him the ball is just not smart. Since we suck anyway, the Spurs could spend an entire game working on entry passes to Wemby. We lose by 40, who cares? At least we're working on something that matters in the long run. Having these guys run around with zero structure or accountability, like they're playing in the Rec League at the YMCA is just dumb. No offense to Pop because he's always going to be the GOAT of NBA coaches in my mind.

When this team wants to get up for an opponent they play reasonably well. When they don't give a sh!t they get destroyed. That's coaching in the NBA. It's teaching lessons on how to play and improve their skills, and getting guys mentally ready to compete against that night's opponent. I'm not sure we're doing very well at any of that right now.

[Obstructed_View]

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

So far, losing hasn't taught the Spurs to think, "Gee, maybe I should pass to that tall guy in a jersey like mine who is open and waving at me."

I think their psyches are out of danger.