The Ferguson Indictment (on Justice)

[ElNono]

I find it hilarious that some idiots are making a big deal out of the fact that Officer Wilson testified before the grand jury.

It's not illegal, but it's exceedingly rare.

[vy65]

No. Do we have a different level of scrutiny for private security, or bouncers at a club? You can shield cops with laws (which happens and it's fine), but there should be no reason to change the process in which we administer justice, IMO.

Well, couldn't you say that the process was the same even though Wilson was a cop?

Most grand juries quickly return indictments because they believe what LE tells them. So, all things being normal, wouldn't a typical grand jury have just believed what Wilson said happened and that'd be the end of it? Instead, we got a long drawn out process where eye-witnesses who testified to the contrary of what LE said occurred.

I know that your point about process is ultimately about having a jury trial - and I'm getting off topic a bit here. But I think it's safe to say that Wilson's story was subjected to a level of scrutiny that is somewhat atypical.

[Yonivore]

I don't know about the "the next best thing". Maybe for his career, but certainly not for the people he was representing (which is the family and the citizens of the state, officer Wilson notwithstanding), IMO.



I'm not questioning the jurors or even what they found out.

If this is the 'fair' or 'right' thing to do, why isn't this the de-facto standard? Why aren't we doing this for every case, or, at least, the vast majority of cases? When we look at "dynamics", as you say, of how indictments are granted, this case is a huge outlier. Why is it that such high standard seemingly only applies when a cop is involved. I'm sure you would agree there's just something inherently unfair about that, which is what I think undermines what's perceived as justice.

Because, it's just not everyday the community spends months ramping up to a violent response to a no bill and let's you know what they're planning.

The prosecutor said why he did things the way he did. The media and "protestors" were trying this case in the media with "evidence" they deemed to air. Which, according to the prosecutor, tended to be from "witnesses" who statements were either contradicted by the physical evidence or who told varying accounts of the shooting when questioned by police.

In terms of attention, this case has been a "huge outlier" since the very beginning. It's not every day a community is threatened with violence if the legal system doesn't produce the result they want.

[ElNono]

Well, couldn't you say that the process was the same even though Wilson was a cop?

Most grand juries quickly return indictments because they believe what LE tells them. So, all things being normal, wouldn't a typical grand jury have just believed what Wilson said happened and that'd be the end of it? Instead, we got a long drawn out process where eye-witnesses who testified to the contrary of what LE said occurred.

I know that your point about process is ultimately about having a jury trial - and I'm getting off topic a bit here. But I think it's safe to say that Wilson's story was subjected to a level of scrutiny that is somewhat atypical.

Well, in this particular case Wilson was the accused. I also agree that "Wilson's story was subjected to a level of scrutiny that is somewhat atypical", but I think largely the reason for that is that the process itself was atypical (notice: not illegal, atypical). And that actually points more towards how the prosecution handled this case than anything.

[ElNono]

Because, it's just not everyday the community spends months ramping up to a violent response to a no bill and let's you know what they're planning.

The prosecutor said why he did things the way he did. The media and "protestors" were trying this case in the media with "evidence" they deemed to air. Which, according to the prosecutor, tended to be from "witnesses" who statements were either contradicted by the physical evidence or who told varying accounts of the shooting when questioned by police.

In terms of attention, this case has been a "huge outlier" since the very beginning. It's not every day a community is threatened with violence if the legal system doesn't produce the result they want.

You're far behind Yoni. Catch up, or not.

[CosmicCowboy]

I thought the issue wasn't that he testified, but that he wasn't cross-examined by the DA.

It's not illegal, but it's exceedingly rare.

It's rare because if he chooses to testify the accused has to go in front of the Grand Jury and answer any and all questions the grand jury asks...without his attorney being present and anything he says to the grand jury would be admissible at his trial if he was charged.

That's just not what guilty people do.

[ElNono]

It's rare because if he chooses to testify the accused has to go in front of the Grand Jury and answer any and all questions the grand jury asks...without his attorney being present and anything he says to the grand jury would be admissible at his trial if he was charged.

That's just not what guilty people do.

My understanding is that it's exceedingly rare that a grand jury would even request testimony from the accused. The standard is pretty low in grand jury cases, normally the prosecutor stating his case is all it takes to get an indictment.

[Yonivore]

Public disapproval = Criminal punishment. Okay. Poor guys even had fundraisers set up for them... Wilson looks to score a cool $500K in exchange for his suffering.

You just said penalty. There's nothing to support criminal punishment, the evidence support Wilson's and Zimmerman's account of events. So, yeah, they've suffered needlessly for doing the right thing. 500K in exchange for his career? , he's probably going to be dragged through the civil courts, as well. Zimmerman hasn't fared much better. I'm sure both of them wish they had never encountered the criminals whose lives they ended.

Didn't say they were.

So, this...

The problem is not that innocent black kids are being gunned down every day.

...wasn't alluding to Martin or Brown? Then how are they examples of a larger problem?

Or one could just be willfully ignorant, or, in your case, just full of .

Oh, there's a problem but, it's not the one you think. Black youths and young adults commit violent crimes against each other and whites at a very disproportionate rate than do white youth and young adults again each other and blacks. It's a sad but true fact.

As noted before, protesters believe these are examples of a larger problem.

No they don't, they just want to be lemmings that bark on the orders of the race baiters of this country.

A white Trayvon wouldn't have been suspected and approached in the first place. 0% chance deadly force gets used on either of them. The confrontations, in all likelihood, never happen.

You can't know that. All other things being equal, I say there's as much a likelihood the guy gets shot no matter his race.

Jennings was an adult, not a 12 year old kid. In this case, the officers had background on him - they knew who he was, knew he was suicidal and believed he was armed. They got the wrong information, but their actions were not based on simple superficial bias as was the case with the Cleveland cops. , the CPD was even told by the person who called it in that the kid was probably using a toy gun.

You weren't there so, you don't know the cir stances -- just as you don't know the cir stances in Ferguson, Sanford, or anywhere else -- unless you were a witness or party to the shooting. If the police officers shot that 12 year-old unjustly, then I hope they're held accountable. But, I'm not going to let the media tell me what happened -- they're not trustworthy.

Yeah and your people are committing school shootings and financial crimes at a disproportionate rate, when are you going to do get a handle on them? Why aren't you doing something about the culture of serial violence, or the disregard for law in the financial sector? Oh yeah, and get a handle on your teachers... What is it with white women and having sex with underage students?

Liberals stand in the way. I'm all for throwing the mentally ill back in ins utions but, alas, liberals set them out on the streets. Teachers' union prevent harsh punishment of their members but, you got to admit, we're making progress on catching and prosecuting these offenders...or, sadly, the incidence of it has gone up. I'm not sure to what you refer in the financial sector except that there's been a lot of complaining about how the LAW favors big business -- not that big business is violating it.

Do you see how stupid that sounds to someone who has nothing to do with the crimes of his "culture"? (Don't answer)

Because it is stupid and totally unrelated to the issue. (I answered)

There is no single subject that 100% of any group agrees on. And no one said that 100% of blacks experience that kind of profiling.

And none of the cases over which the "group" is protesting are examples of racial profiling. Michael Brown robbed a store, Michael Brown was walking down the middle of the street, Michael Brown attached the police officer that stopped and asked him to move out of the street. Michael Brown, after assaulting the officer and walking away, turned and charged that ARMED officer (after telling him he was too big of a pussy to shoot him). Why is Michael Brown the martyr chosen by the aggrieved?

Trayvon Martin was acting su ious. There had been a rash of property crimes in the gated community. Zimmerman had every right to try and determine if Martin might be committing a crime. There is absolutely no other explanation that fits the physical evidence other than Trayvon Martin either circled back or laid in wait for George Zimmerman and attacked him as he walked between the condos at the point he was attacked. Given the length of the phone call between Zimmerman and police -- Martin could have been at his father's condo sharing his Skittles with he little brother before Zimmerman hung up the phone. Again, why is Trayvon Martin the martyr chosen by the aggrieved?

Aren't there any truly innocent black teens being gunned down?

Glad you asked because they are being gunned down by the bus loads in the inner cities of Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles by other black teens; because they're wearing the wrong color, wearing a desirable pair of shoes, standing on the wrong corner, looking at the wrong girl or, , just sitting on their porch enjoying an nice evening.

Welp, you got me, I guess this whole time I've been subtly condoning riots.

It appears you have.

[Yonivore]

It's not illegal, but it's exceedingly rare.

Well, it's exceedingly rare that a bunch thugs are threatening to burn down your city if the Grand Jury doesn't do what they want.

And, It's exceedingly rare for a homicide to be tried in the national media.

But, when it happens, I would expect the officials to do whatever is necessary to insulate himself and the Grand Jury against any charges of bias or impropriety. He laid all his cards on the table. That the community decided to riot anyway shows they weren't interested in justice they were only interested in getting their way.

[ElNono]

Well, it's exceedingly rare that a bunch thugs are threatening to burn down your city if the Grand Jury doesn't do what they want.

And, It's exceedingly rare for a homicide to be tried in the national media.

But, when it happens, I would expect the officials to do whatever is necessary to insulate himself and the Grand Jury against any charges of bias or impropriety. He laid all his cards on the table. That the community decided to riot anyway shows they weren't interested in justice they were only interested in getting their way.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything we're conversing here. I'm in the opinion that violence would've erupted there sooner or later, regardless of this particular process. I don't condone such violence.

I'm discussing the process, because it's the only thing that interests me about this case. The violence, the media... feel free to discuss that with somebody that cares about that.

[The Reckoning]

Yes we feel so bad for the kid that we go loot stores for air jordans

[Yonivore]

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything we're conversing here. I'm in the opinion that violence would've erupted there sooner or later, regardless of this particular process. I don't condone such violence.

I'm discussing the process, because it's the only thing that interests me about this case. The violence, the media... feel free to discuss that with somebody that cares about that.

Well, bully for you, ElNono. Feel free to ignore me counselor.

[ElNono]

Well, bully for you, ElNono. Feel free to ignore me counselor.

[Yonivore]

"...why isn't this the de-facto standard? Why aren't we doing this for every case, or, at least, the vast majority of cases?

Because it would be bersome, costly, and unnecessary to follow such a regimen on all, or even most, cases.

When we look at "dynamics", as you say, of how indictments are granted, this case is a huge outlier.

That's because the public and media scrutiny on this case is also a huge outlier when compared to the attention given the vast majority of other homicides -- even police involved homicides.

Why is it that such high standard seemingly only applies when a cop is involved.

I'm not sure this is supported by experience. As you've already stated, this is a huge outlier and, I woiuld add, among officer involved homicides, as well.

I'm sure you would agree there's just something inherently unfair about that, which is what I think undermines what's perceived as justice.

What seems unfair is the 24/7 news cycle fomenting unrest and the "protesters" threatening violence and destruction if their demands aren't met.

I hope I did a better job responding to your "conversation" about the process.

[Spurminator]

You just said penalty. There's nothing to support criminal punishment, the evidence support Wilson's and Zimmerman's account of events. So, yeah, they've suffered needlessly for doing the right thing. 500K in exchange for his career? , he's probably going to be dragged through the civil courts, as well. Zimmerman hasn't fared much better. I'm sure both of them wish they had never encountered the criminals whose lives they ended.

So, this...wasn't alluding to Martin or Brown? Then how are they examples of a larger problem?

Black people feel trampled upon by the legal system. There is plenty of evidence that they are. They will rally around high profile cases like these, whether those specific cases are valid or not. I don't need to debate this at length with you. If you think a black kid caught with a joint is going to be treated the same as a white kid, and you don't see how that is at all relevant to this whole mess, then it's pointless to have this conversation.

You can't know that. All other things being equal, I say there's as much a likelihood the guy gets shot no matter his race.

Of course you would say that.

You weren't there so, you don't know the cir stances -- just as you don't know the cir stances in Ferguson, Sanford, or anywhere else -- unless you were a witness or party to the shooting. If the police officers shot that 12 year-old unjustly, then I hope they're held accountable. But, I'm not going to let the media tell me what happened -- they're not trustworthy.

Conveniently your distrust of the media doesn't extend to everything else going on in Ferguson.

Liberals stand in the way. I'm all for throwing the mentally ill back in ins utions but, alas, liberals set them out on the streets. Teachers' union prevent harsh punishment of their members but, you got to admit, we're making progress on catching and prosecuting these offenders...or, sadly, the incidence of it has gone up. I'm not sure to what you refer in the financial sector except that there's been a lot of complaining about how the LAW favors big business -- not that big business is violating it.

Liberals' fault. I should have known. Anyway, you completely miss the point as usual.

Aren't there any truly innocent black teens being gunned down?

"Truly innocent" is a convenient qualifier because it gives you an out to excuse excessive violence. Besides maybe Trayvon was simply protecting himself from some random nut pointing a gun at him for no reason, from his perspective. We won't know because he didn't get to tell his side of the story.

Here's another example of excessive violence against a young black male shopping at Walmart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...-crawford-iii/

Glad you asked because they are being gunned down by the bus loads in the inner cities of Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles by other black teens; because they're wearing the wrong color, wearing a desirable pair of shoes, standing on the wrong corner, looking at the wrong girl or, , just sitting on their porch enjoying an nice evening.

Right, back to "do something about your culture." Those killers, when caught, are held accountable, so there's not really much to debate there in terms of justice.

[Yonivore]

Black people feel trampled upon by the legal system. There is plenty of evidence that they are. They will rally around high profile cases like these, whether those specific cases are valid or not. I don't need to debate this at length with you. If you think a black kid caught with a joint is going to be treated the same as a white kid, and you don't see how that is at all relevant to this whole mess, then it's pointless to have this conversation.

But if, as you say, there is plenty of evidence, why are they forced to rally around cases like these? Why not one that has a legitimate innocent victim?

Of course you would say that.

Because there's no evidence to the contrary.

Conveniently your distrust of the media doesn't extend to everything else going on in Ferguson.

Such as?

Liberals' fault. I should have known. Anyway, you completely miss the point as usual.

So, what is the point? You have a huge chip on your shoulder?

"Truly innocent" is a convenient qualifier because it gives you an out to excuse excessive violence. Besides maybe Trayvon was simply protecting himself from some random nut pointing a gun at him for no reason, from his perspective. We won't know because he didn't get to tell his side of the story.

But, the forensic evidence says otherwise and is in agreement with Zimmerman's version of events.

Here's another example of excessive violence against a young black male shopping at Walmart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...-crawford-iii/

What did a Grand Jury decide in that case?

It happens to white people too. In fact, it happens so little, at all, in a country of almost 400 million people, that you cannot infer a racial component unless there is evidence the decision to shoot was made based on race. The best you can allege is that police officers are too quick to use deadly force in some cases and, in that, I will agree. Although I do not agree in the case of Michael Brown. Nor do I believe Zimmerman used excessive force.

Gunned Down in Vegas: What Really Happened to Erik Scott?

I will also note the level of anger over the shooting of Erik Scott is equal to that of Michael Brown -- only, hoards of "protesters" didn't threaten to burn down Las Vegas if the cops weren't indicted.

Right, back to "do something about your culture." Those killers, when caught, are held accountable, so there's not really much to debate there in terms of justice.

You don't think there is something wrong in the black community, where young blacks are killing each other at such a high rate? Frankly, I think it's a bigger problem than police shooting thugs...black or white.

[ElNono]

Because it would be bersome, costly, and unnecessary to follow such a regimen on all, or even most, cases.

It was a rhetorical question.

That's because the public and media scrutiny on this case is also a huge outlier when compared to the attention given the vast majority of other homicides -- even police involved homicides.

Should that change the way we impart justice? I'm sticking with no. Feel free to disagree.

I'm not sure this is supported by experience. As you've already stated, this is a huge outlier and, I woiuld add, among officer involved homicides, as well.

I think you misunderstood what I was calling an outlier. I wasn't referring to this being an exceptional case (regardless if it was for whatever reasons you want to attribute to it).

I was calling it an outlier because factually speaking, the rate at which a grand jury does not return an indictment is well below 1%. The reason for that was already well put by FWD earlier in the thread.

What seems unfair is the 24/7 news cycle fomenting unrest and the "protesters" threatening violence and destruction if their demands aren't met.

I didn't get that message from the news cycle, but admittedly, I don't watch much cable TV.

[russellgoat]

Michael Brown was just a black bundle of cells. Get the over it.

[Yonivore]

Should that change the way we impart justice? I'm sticking with no. Feel free to disagree.

If it changes in the direction of more, not less, scrutiny, as in this case, I have no problem with it.

I think you misunderstood what I was calling an outlier. I wasn't referring to this being an exceptional case (regardless if it was for whatever reasons you want to attribute to it).

I was calling it an outlier because factually speaking, the rate at which a grand jury does not return an indictment is well below 1%. The reason for that was already well put by FWD earlier in the thread.

Well, begging your pardon but, it appeared your assertion it was a "huge outlier" seemed to be connected with the "dynamics of how indictments are granted," not with whether or not they are granted at all. It was to that muddled message I was responding. And, in a binary process of indictment or no bill, there are no outliers; it's either one or the other and it's either in the majority (indictment) or minority (no bill).

I didn't get that message from the news cycle, but admittedly, I don't watch much cable TV.

I don't watch cable news at all but, there were dozens of stories -- from such sources -- posted on the web that showed the threats being made by "protesters." What good would it be for ratings if the protests were peaceful? For instance, CNN pulled the same stunt as NBC did, during the Sanford case, by showing grainy CCTV footage of Wilson leaving the police department, en route to the hospital for treatment of his injuries and noting there were no visible injuries. You would have thought the media would have learned from the last time they did that. Also, I have yet to her Brown described as anything other than an "unarmed teenager." You know, he was also a suspected robber who had allegedly assaulted the officer that shot him, right? He was also bigger than Officer Wilson.

[ElNono]

If it changes in the direction of more, not less, scrutiny, as in this case, I have no problem with it.

For everybody or only when a cop is is the accused?

Well, begging your pardon but, it appeared your assertion it was a "huge outlier" seemed to be connected with the "dynamics of how indictments are granted," not with whether or not they are granted at all. It was to that muddled message I was responding. And, in a binary process of indictment or no bill, there are no outliers; it's either one or the other and it's either in the majority (indictment) or minority (no bill).

I think vy65, whom I borrowed the "dynamics" term from (in the context of our conversation) understood me just fine.

Statistically speaking, when you have 160,000 indictments vs 11 non-indictments from grand juries, being one of the 11 is certainly an outlier, regardless of the merits of any particular case. Anybody that worked in the judiciary understands why that is, because they understand how our current system of justice works. We can debate if such a process is "just" or not, but this was basically my response to vy's assertion that an alleged innocent person shouldn't face a jury trial (which I agree, but I doubt it's largely the case nowadays).

[Spurminator]

But if, as you say, there is plenty of evidence, why are they forced to rally around cases like these? Why not one that has a legitimate innocent victim?

Usually the more the media covers an example, the more people rally around it. I'm not holding the media unaccountable for helping turn this into the boiling point it became. I wish there was as much scrutiny when a 19-year-old kid gets 25 year for pot possession, but just because you're not seeing it on the news as much doesn't mean it's not happening and noticeable in those communities.

And let's not forget that this didn't really come to a head in the media until the police started sending tanks into Ferguson.

Such as?

The rioters, the protesters, the law enforcement... You know, everything that is going on in Ferguson right now. You're not there, so your opinion of all of this is informed by the media.

So, what is the point? You have a huge chip on your shoulder?

My point is that you can't hold people responsible for the actions of other people who look like them.

But, the forensic evidence says otherwise and is in agreement with Zimmerman's version of events.

Forensic evidence can't show motive.

What did a Grand Jury decide in that case?

No trial.

You don't think there is something wrong in the black community, where young blacks are killing each other at such a high rate? Frankly, I think it's a bigger problem than police shooting thugs...black or white.

Define the black community? The black people I know come from good families, have good jobs and have generally the same lifestyle as I do. What do you suggest they do about young black thugs killing each other? Are they a part of this "black community" you speak of? What are their responsibilities to this community? Are they the same as your responsibilities to the "white community"?

Yes, I think there are serious issues in the poorest communities in America, where a large part of the population is black. And what we're currently doing to fix those problems isn't working.

[Yonivore]

[Yonivore]

Define the black community? The black people I know come from good families, have good jobs and have generally the same lifestyle as I do. What do you suggest they do about young black thugs killing each other? Are they a part of this "black community" you speak of? What are their responsibilities to this community? Are they the same as your responsibilities to the "white community"?

Yes, I think there are serious issues in the poorest communities in America, where a large part of the population is black. And what we're currently doing to fix those problems isn't working.

How about you be more like Chris Rock. Or, better yet, get at least as upset about black on black crime as you do about a homicide involving a white police officer and a black thug -- also not occurring in your community.

[Yonivore]

For everybody or only when a cop is is the accused?

Whenever cir stances warrant.

I think vy65, whom I borrowed the "dynamics" term from (in the context of our conversation) understood me just fine.

Statistically speaking, when you have 160,000 indictments vs 11 non-indictments from grand juries, being one of the 11 is certainly an outlier, regardless of the merits of any particular case. Anybody that worked in the judiciary understands why that is, because they understand how our current system of justice works. We can debate if such a process is "just" or not, but this was basically my response to vy's assertion that an alleged innocent person shouldn't face a jury trial (which I agree, but I doubt it's largely the case nowadays).

I understand what you're saying and it but a matter of semantics. I do not believe you're using the term "outlier" in the proper context and, in the context in which you did use it, it appeared to describe the process not the outcome. Yes, "outlier" is a statistical term but, it means an observation point that is distant from all other observation points. And, in that context, the process the prosecutor has employed in this instance is an "outlier" when compared to all other Grand Jury processes -- I believe it is unique.

[Spurminator]

How do you know how upset they are about black-on-black crime? Because of what you get from the media you distrust so much.