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  1. #2001
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I read the paper and it said that there was warming on the exterior of the continental shelves but that that there was increased snow fall at the higher al udes on the interior of the continent beyond certain gradients and that was causing a net gain overall.

    He disputes sea level rise and not that the earth is warming. He actually goes into detail about long term trends causing the shift in precipitation on the whole versus the short term warming on the extremities.

    Anyone have a different take on DJ Wingham's paper?
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  2. #2002
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Remember that time Darrin claimed Antarctica was gaining ice?
    Yes, and you are either being scientifically ignorant, or scientifically disingenuous.

    Ice sheets are dependent of the ocean temperature as one of several variables. Warmer water will melt the ice more. The ice pack itself doesn't care about the water temperature, except that we can expect the sheet to decline and more precipitation cause more snow to fall. Dry humidity will cause more sublimation and warmer oceans will in general cause more precipitation. The sun and soot also directly affect ice packs, glaciers, etc.

    Your statement is a stupid one, since it uses ice sheets.
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  3. #2003
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I post an actual scientific paper and you post something from this dip 's blog.

    1) MarkR is not John Cook, you goober.

    2) MarkR posted links to the following scientific papers at the "blog", with summaries and analytics:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture10089.html
    http://www.ccrc.unsw.edu.au/Copenhag...gnosis_LOW.pdf
    http://www.igsoc.org/annals/v52/59/a59A046.pdf
    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00053/art00004
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/4656981wmw2r6h81/
    http://www.ep.sci.hokudai.ac.jp/~hek...oHeki_EPSL.pdf
    http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...GL033614.shtml
    http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v.../ngeo1068.html
    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...65106.full.pdf




    I find that to be a microcosm of the entire debate.

    A Denier with some study, probably found on a denier website, presents as somehow proof positive that AGW doesn't exist.

    When one looks into the actual science, not onlly does that study not debunk AGW, it is fairly obvious that Denier didn't quite understand what he was posting, and either actively ignored a large amount of other papers on the subject, or just genuinely didn't know about the depth of the science on the subject.

    , insert the word "creationist" for "Denier" and "evolution" for "AGW" and you have the evolution "debate".

    Once again, Darrin comes through for the OP.
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  4. #2004
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    The paper Darrin posted does in fact say that Antarctica land ice is increasing. Its not talking about sea ice. However, its the only paper that comes to that conclusion. Furthermore, the methods used in that paper have been shown to underestimate ice loss in other places such as Greenland.

    So, while the paper supports Darrin's belief, its the only one to do so when everyone else is publishing the opposite. Furthermore, Darrin himself has posted the results from the GRACE measurements of late say the Himalayas have not lost ice but also say Antarctica is losing large amounts of ice and contradict his belief in this scenario.
    Willingham even admits in the paper that the amount of attributed precipitation was 'generous.'
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  5. #2005
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Yes, and you are either being scientifically ignorant, or scientifically disingenuous.

    Ice sheets are dependent of the ocean temperature as one of several variables. Warmer water will melt the ice more. The ice pack itself doesn't care about the water temperature, except that we can expect the sheet to decline and more precipitation cause more snow to fall. Dry humidity will cause more sublimation and warmer oceans will in general cause more precipitation. The sun and soot also directly affect ice packs, glaciers, etc.

    Your statement is a stupid one, since it uses ice sheets.
    Well its obvious you still suck at thermodynamics.

    stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
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  6. #2006
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yes, and you are either being scientifically ignorant, or scientifically disingenuous.

    Ice sheets are dependent of the ocean temperature as one of several variables. Warmer water will melt the ice more. The ice pack itself doesn't care about the water temperature, except that we can expect the sheet to decline and more precipitation cause more snow to fall. Dry humidity will cause more sublimation and warmer oceans will in general cause more precipitation. The sun and soot also directly affect ice packs, glaciers, etc.

    Your statement is a stupid one, since it uses ice sheets.
    If the Southern Ocean is warming, why is Antarctic sea ice increasing? There are several contributing factors. One is the drop in ozone levels over Antarctica. The hole in the ozone layer above the South Pole has caused cooling in the stratosphere (Gillet 2003). This strengthens the cyclonic winds that circle the Antarctic continent (Thompson 2002). The wind pushes sea ice around, creating areas of open water known as polynyas. More polynyas lead to increased sea ice production (Turner 2009).

    Another contributor is changes in ocean circulation. The Southern Ocean consists of a layer of cold water near the surface and a layer of warmer water below. Water from the warmer layer rises up to the surface, melting sea ice. However, as air temperatures warm, the amount of rain and snowfall also increases. This freshens the surface waters, leading to a surface layer less dense than the saltier, warmer water below. The layers become more stratified and mix less. Less heat is transported upwards from the deeper, warmer layer. Hence less sea ice is melted (Zhang 2007).
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/anta...termediate.htm



    Seems like them scientists are doing scienc-y things and figuring stuff out.


    As they do, I think it will be harder and harder for hacks to cloud the issue, like the creationists attempting to sneak in their belief system in the name of "teachign the controversy" when there really isn't one in the scientific community.
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  7. #2007
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    "The Antarctic is not the cause of the observed seal level rise, we need to find what is driving that trend".
    There are other factors besides the balance of ice. I'm not discounting ice, I just don't want people to forget the others.

    We are constantly bombarded by hydrogen in the solar winds, which combine with oxygen and make water.

    Rivers are constantly putting more sediment in the ocean, making the levels rise a little.

    The magma of the earth is moving. Some features of land actually rise and others actually lower.

    I am not attempting to quantify these to belittle the sea rise because of melting ice, I just don't want people to forget there are other causes.
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  8. #2008
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    LOL...

    LOL...


    LOL...

    A meteorologist with a few extra creds....

    LOL...

    LOL...

    can't even predict changes under a month...

    Those extra credits in school and extra PHD style studying makes you capable of godhood...

    Really now.

    LOL...

    LOL...

    LOL...
    EDIT - changing image to a simple URL due to page being totally screwed on my computer and annoying the out of me.

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...rtsDiagram.JPG
    Last edited by MannyIsGod; 02-24-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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  9. #2009
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Yes, and you are either being scientifically ignorant, or scientifically disingenuous.

    Ice sheets are dependent of the ocean temperature as one of several variables. Warmer water will melt the ice more. The ice pack itself doesn't care about the water temperature, except that we can expect the sheet to decline and more precipitation cause more snow to fall. Dry humidity will cause more sublimation and warmer oceans will in general cause more precipitation. The sun and soot also directly affect ice packs, glaciers, etc.

    Your statement is a stupid one, since it uses ice sheets.
    I hear the ocean under the ice sheets ON the continent of Antarctica plays a big role.

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  10. #2010
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    There are other factors besides the balance of ice. I'm not discounting ice, I just don't want people to forget the others.

    We are constantly bombarded by hydrogen in the solar winds, which combine with oxygen and make water.

    Rivers are constantly putting more sediment in the ocean, making the levels rise a little.

    The magma of the earth is moving. Some features of land actually rise and others actually lower.

    I am not attempting to quantify these to belittle the sea rise because of melting ice, I just don't want people to forget there are other causes.
    Hooooooooooooooly .
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  11. #2011
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I hear the ocean under the ice sheets ON the continent of Antarctica plays a big role.

    Again...

    Ice sheets are different than the ice on the continent.

    Can you comprehend that? Your supplied comeback that I responded to was only sea ice.

    Buy a clue please.

    Remove that huge pic also. I hate scrolling to read sentences.
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  12. #2012
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The paper Darrin posted does in fact say that Antarctica land ice is increasing. Its not talking about sea ice.
    Sea ice doesn't change the ocean level by any meaningful degree. It floats for a reason.
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  13. #2013
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I read the paper and it said that there was warming on the exterior of the continental shelves but that that there was increased snow fall at the higher al udes on the interior of the continent beyond certain gradients and that was causing a net gain overall.

    He disputes sea level rise and not that the earth is warming. He actually goes into detail about long term trends causing the shift in precipitation on the whole versus the short term warming on the extremities.

    Anyone have a different take on DJ Wingham's paper?
    Heh, I was a bit amused by the margin of error.

    The conclusion said that 72% of the ice sheet surveyed is gaining 27 GT ice/year (plus or minus 29 GT).

    Further the swing in the unsurveyed area was given as 32GT plus or minus.

    Meaning that there is a huge amount of uncertainty overall.

    When your range is -35GT to +115GT per year, it doesn't indicate to me a great deal of certainty.

    From the study it is much more likely than not that it is gaining overall, but recent data muddies the conclusion a bit.

    Antarctica losing land ice, the ice loss is accelerating at a rate of 26 Gigatonnes/yr2 (in other words, every year, the rate of ice loss is increasing by 26 Gigatonnes per year) It turns out that since 2006, East Antarctica has no longer been in mass balance but is in fact, losing ice mass (Chen 2009). This is a surprising result as East Antarctica has been considered stable because the region is so cold. This indicates the East Antarctic ice sheet is more dynamic than previously thought.

    This is significant because East Antarctica contains much more ice than West Antarctica. East Antarctica contains enough ice to raise global sea levels by 50 to 60 metres while West Antarctica would contribute around 6 to 7 metres. The Antarctic ice sheet plays an important role in the total contribution to sea level. That contribution is continuously and rapidly growing.
    again, same link from earlier:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/anta...termediate.htm
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  14. #2014
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    EDIT - changing image to a simple URL due to page being totally screwed on my computer and annoying the out of me.

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...rtsDiagram.JPG
    Thanx.

    That image is 44 pixels wider than my monitor.
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  15. #2015
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The paper Darrin posted does in fact say that Antarctica land ice is increasing. Its not talking about sea ice. However, its the only paper that comes to that conclusion. Furthermore, the methods used in that paper have been shown to underestimate ice loss in other places such as Greenland.

    So, while the paper supports Darrin's belief, its the only one to do so when everyone else is publishing the opposite. Furthermore, Darrin himself has posted the results from the GRACE measurements of late say the Himalayas have not lost ice but also say Antarctica is losing large amounts of ice and contradict his belief in this scenario.
    So once again, you believe in consensus rather than real science... being a skeptic first...
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  16. #2016
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Again...

    Ice sheets are different than the ice on the continent.

    Can you comprehend that? Your supplied comeback that I responded to was only sea ice.

    Buy a clue please.


    Remove that huge pic also. I hate scrolling to read sentences.


    Seriously?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_sheet
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  17. #2017
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    There are other factors besides the balance of ice. I'm not discounting ice, I just don't want people to forget the others.

    We are constantly bombarded by hydrogen in the solar winds, which combine with oxygen and make water.

    Rivers are constantly putting more sediment in the ocean, making the levels rise a little.

    The magma of the earth is moving. Some features of land actually rise and others actually lower.

    I am not attempting to quantify these to belittle the sea rise because of melting ice, I just don't want people to forget there are other causes.
    You should get right on quantifying them. We will wait.
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  18. #2018
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I guess Ice Sheets aren't covered in the parts changer manual.
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  19. #2019
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I'm sure that was just another test, right WC?
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  20. #2020
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    BRB searching Amazon.com for a clue. Hope its not TOO expensive.
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  21. #2021
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    OK, OK...

    I confused the terminology with Ice Shelf.
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  22. #2022
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    You should get right on quantifying them. We will wait.
    LOL...

    No ing way. That would be like a research paper.

    I do wonder however how much water we possibly gained, by maybe a CME that the earth's orbit went through. There could be some truth to the forty days and forty nights of rain, the Bible speaks of. Proxy evidence tells us that the earths oxygen level use to be higher, which would likely be required for dinosaurs to have existed.
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  23. #2023
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Again...

    Ice sheets are different than the ice on the continent.

    Can you comprehend that? Your supplied comeback that I responded to was only sea ice.

    Buy a clue please.

    Remove that huge pic also. I hate scrolling to read sentences.
    It would seem the definition of "ice sheet" *is* ice on the continent.

    Not sure what you are attempting to get at, but this is a factual error as it stands.
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  24. #2024
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It would seem the definition of "ice sheet" *is* ice on the continent.

    Not sure what you are attempting to get at, but this is a factual error as it stands.
    Yes, see post 2023...

    I ed up...
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  25. #2025
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Oh, no need to limit the evidence to post 2023 if we want to find your ups.
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