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  1. #2601
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    They sure do take BEST scientist, Judith Curry, to task.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/cert...inty-ewok.html

    She doesn't smear non-alarmist scientists as "pseudoscientists", so she must be part of the problem.
    But they don't say she fakes data.

    They don't say she suppresses data.

    They say she makes some mistakes in her reasoning.

    That is what scientists do.

    You however, throw whatever you can against the wall, hoping it sticks.

    You are the pseudoscientist, Darrin. Not an honest scientist doing some decently skeptical analsysis.

    Curry has mistaken..

    Curry completely disregards the uncertainty range

    It's simply inaccurate
    Really harsh.

    Do you want me to contrast that with the Denier websites you like to link?

    It is obvious that one side is politicizing this issue. It just isn't the one you want to think it is.
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  2. #2602
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Skeptical Science's Dikran Marsupial has described the uncertainty monster as an "uncertainty Ewok," because while there are of course climate uncertainties, some of which are quite substantial, science and statistics have developed and refined sensible approaches to dealing with them and they are nothing to be scared of. The existence of significant uncertainties does not mean we don't know anything or that no conclusions can be drawn. We understand the main drivers of the climate reasonably well, and the climatologists (and the IPCC) consistently take the remaining uncertaities into account when drawing conclusions.
    The uncertainty interval of the AR4 model projections provides a good example of dealing with the uncertainty ewok; they allow us to conclude that a long term (e.g. 30+ years) cooling trend would be inconsistent with our understanding of climate physics (under this scenario), but the level of uncertainty in the projections prevent us from drawing strong conclusions about the expected trend for the next decade, at least using the last generation of climate models.
    Not quite the hand-wavy alarmism and "absolute certainty" that the Deniers like to say is charactoristic of AGW supporters.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/cert...inty-ewok.html
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  3. #2603
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's being "misused" so much as it is being blocked from publication.


    Hypothetical question: If humans ceased emitting CO2 tomorrow, what do you suppose the climate would do after that? Not trying to be facetious.
    Cosmored, you have not answered my question.

    Do you have the confessions or statements on the part of any significant number of the tens of thousands of scientists whose work is being misused by the "key players"?
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  4. #2604
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    So, you don't know how they turned out?
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...postcount=2484
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...postcount=2486
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...postcount=2488
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...postcount=2490

    I'll wait. Answer them at your leasure.

    Feel free to answer for him, Darrin, W/C.

    Not that I will hold my breath for a straight, honest answer.
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  5. #2605
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    You are the pseudoscientist, Darrin.
    As oppposed to the "real scientists" on "The Sketpical Science Team" ( btw). http://www.skepticalscience.com/team.php



    Not an honest scientist doing some decently skeptical analsysis.
    According to you, this does not exist.
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  6. #2606
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Cosmored, you have not answered my question.

    Do you have the confessions or statements on the part of any significant number of the tens of thousands of scientists whose work is being misused by the "key players"?

    You are beating the out of your straw man. Big fonts and all.
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  7. #2607
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Manny responded with an IPCC paper. An organization long ago discredited by their lies, misrepresentations, and errors.

    Look, I believe the skeptics. You continue to believe the likes of Gore, Hansen, et. al.

    I don't think mankind can have any appreciable affect on global climate and nothing that has been put in the public domain has persuaded me otherwise. However, there is plenty out there to convince me the AGCC proponents have a financial stake in making the world believe it exists.

    Sue me.
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  8. #2608
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    BEST did exactly that.

    That was obviously an attempt to "properly address" a point you assert, and I accept, is valid.

    If BEST didn't properly address that, what would properly address it?
    I don't know if there is a way to. Hard to turn back time.
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  9. #2609
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You are beating the out of your straw man. Big fonts and all.
    Originally Posted by RandomGuy

    The fact that Deniers claim some vast conspiracy on the part of tens of thousands of scientists seals the deal.
    Not tens of thousands -- just a handful of key players. I can post their emails showing their subversion of the peer review process if you'd like.
    It isn't a strawman.

    Don't get pissy with me if you can't keep your conspiracy theory straight.
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  10. #2610
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Manny responded with an IPCC paper. An organization long ago discredited by their lies, misrepresentations, and errors.

    Look, I believe the skeptics. You continue to believe the likes of Gore, Hansen, et. al.

    I don't think mankind can have any appreciable affect on global climate and nothing that has been put in the public domain has persuaded me otherwise. However, there is plenty out there to convince me the AGCC proponents have a financial stake in making the world believe it exists.

    Sue me.
    All those questions were honest, fair questions about what level of evidence you would find acceptable.

    That you can't, or won't answer honest, fair questions says volumes.

    Do people that sell fossil fuels have a financial stake in downplaying any evidence that the usage of their product might be harmful?
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  11. #2611
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    You are beating the out of your straw man. Big fonts and all.
    It just seems to me that you have no point at all. Hes asked you waht publications have been blocked by the process adn you just start this dissembling nonsense.

    of all the stuff you have shown so far in this thread they fall into one or two categories:

    1) Actually were published contra your claims or,
    2) Straight from obvious energy lobby shill fronts like the Guardian, GWPC, WIWT, Heritage Foundation etc.

    Judith Curry who you martyr for herself was not coackblocked from publication.

    Unmarked graphs, confirmation bias as unfounded assertions, intellectual laziness towards to material you do post intentional or not.

    We have had these exact same arguments that you are trying to extend once again. RG just linked 4 times that responses were ignored. They are getting ignored again.

    Last time i tried to talk to you about analysis of periodic signals, you just changed the subject. That is the key of what you are purporting. First question of analysis should be what is T, the period. You and your ilk do not care you just look for any and all segments that average out to a negative slope.

    You have no interest in the scientific process, systems analysis and anything else but the conclusions. Its transparent.

    You are a shill and if you are not getting paid to behave like this then that is sad indeed.
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  12. #2612
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    It isn't a strawman.

    Don't get pissy with me if you can't keep your conspiracy theory straight.
    Incidentally, I don't think it took a vast conspiracy of tens of thousands of scientists.

    I think a few key players, at the University of East Anglia, Goddard, the IPCC, and our own resident Nobel Laureate Vice President were able to build a convincing case that others followed.

    I posted an article some time back from one of your tens of thousands of scientists that sheepishly admitted the he had just taken the evidence forwarded by the IPCC crowd at face value and signed on without any critical examination of the science.

    I suspect that's much the case across the board. Well, that and the fact that hundreds, if not thousands, of university-connected science professors have literally hundreds of millions of grant dollars riding on this farce continuing.

    Money is a compelling motivator. Hansen became a millionaire at Goddard not by being it's Director but by traveling the world pimping AGCC.
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  13. #2613
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Let's not forget that some believe Gore will become the first to become a Billionaire by pimping it.
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  14. #2614
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    It just seems to me that you have no point at all. Hes asked you waht publications have been blocked by the process adn you just start this dissembling nonsense.

    I don't know what specific papers were blocked, or what specific papers they attempted to block.

    Do I have to keep answering the question?
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  15. #2615
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    there is plenty out there to convince me the AGCC proponents have a financial stake in making the world believe it exists.

    All those questions were honest, fair questions about what level of evidence you would find acceptable.

    That you can't, or won't answer honest, fair questions says volumes.

    Do people that sell fossil fuels have a financial stake in downplaying any evidence that the usage of their product might be harmful?

    [Ignores question, goes straight to ad hominems on climate scientists]
    , it can be frustrating talking to conspiracy theorists.
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  16. #2616
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    , it can be frustrating talking to conspiracy theorists.
    You brought up financial stake. Why does your confirmation bias only see the oil companies as being in this for money? What can't you have an open mind? Step outside that box please. Take off those colored glasses.
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  17. #2617
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I don't know what specific papers were blocked, or what specific papers they attempted to block.

    Do I have to keep answering the question?
    The obviously conclusion from this statement is to stop making the allegation but not in your world. Just keep on saying the same refuted without any justification.

    its actually amusing. Your energy lobby overlords have moved on from denial for the most part and are moving onto impact control. You haven't kept up as you vacillate between their story from 5 years ago to the stuff they put out now even though they are mutually exclusive.
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  18. #2618
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    What can't you have an open mind? Step outside that box please. Take off those colored glasses.



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  19. #2619
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I think this guy has a fair take on climategate and peer review. Maybe not such a conspiracy as much as climate scientists being human.




    Climategate Peer Review: Science red in tooth and claw

    I am a scientist and I have lived around fellow scientists for many years and I know their feeding habits well. I therefore know that the members of our secular priesthood are ordinary folk. But civilians were blind to this fact because our public relations department has labored hard to tell the world of our sanc y. “Scientists use peer review which is scientific and allows ex cathedra utterances. Amen.”

    But the CRU “climategate” emails have revealed the truth that scientists are just people and that peer review is saturated with favoritism, and this has shocked many civilians. It has shaken their faith and left them sputtering. They awoke to the horrible truth: Scientists are just people!

    Now all the world can see that scientists, like their civilians brothers, are nasty, brutish, and short-tempered. They are prejudiced, spiteful, and just downright unfriendly. They are catty, vindictive, scornful, manipulative, narrow-minded, and nearly incapable of admitting to a mistake. And they are cliquey.

    Thus, we see that the CRU crew define a “good scientist” as one who agrees with them, a “bad scientist” or “no scientist” as one who does not agree with them, and a “mediocre scientist” as somebody who mostly agrees with them. Further, these judgments are carried to the peer-review process.

    Claiming lack of peer review was once a reasonable weapon in scientists’ argument armamentarium. After climategate, all can see that this line of logic is as effective as a paper sword.

    For example: the CRU crew publicly cry, “If our skeptics had anything to say, let them do it through peer review, otherwise their claims don’t count.” Never mind that this parry is a logical fallacy—an argument is not refuted because it was uttered outside a members-only journal. Pay attention to what they say privately:


    Proving bad behavior [about peer review] is very difficult. If you think that [Geophysical Research Letters editor] Saiers is in the greenhouse skeptics camp, then, if we can find do entary evidence of this, we could go through official AGU channels to get him ousted.(1)

    They say that this journal or that one, because it dared publish peer-reviewed work that did not agree with the CRU consensus should be banished from the fold, and that its editors should resign or be booted, and that everybody should agree not to cite papers from those journals, and so on.

    In other words, use muscle and not mind if you don’t like the results. Get rid of the editor and put an agreeable apparatchik in his place.

    Another popular thrust: claim that it wasn’t real, genuine, honest-to-goodness peer review that led to skeptical findings being published. Something must have gone horribly wrong for those papers to have seen the light of day! Peer reviewed is thus implicitly defined as that process which publishes only those views that agree with prior convictions.

    Sensing that that tactic could fail, some said, “Aha!, let’s see if we can disparage the authors of those skeptical papers: if we can successfully savage and malign them, then their findings are wrong.”

    Yes, sir, dear reader, you guessed it. Another logical fallacy. It is absolutely no argument whatsoever to say a finding is wrong because its purveyor is “not a real climatologist” or “has not published much” or that he “has few citations from previous papers.”

    It is also a fallacy to say that because a skeptical argument has appeared on a website—and could not pass through the gauntlet of the good-old-boy peer review system—that it need not be answered.

    Here’s some advice to my fellow scientists: If an argument appears on a website, or on FOX news, or in a newspaper, or even on the back of the t-shirt, and that argument fails, then simply say so and say why. And then be done with it. Do not make an ass of yourself by claiming that answering criticisms that do not come from your circle of friends is beneath you.

    If an argument that is old and has been well refuted elsewhere, say so, and say where a reliable refutation may be found. It makes you look desperate and foolish to say that the argument came from a blogger and is therefore suspect. And it makes people believe the blogger.

    Anyway, do not cry foul over skeptical blogs and then simultaneously publish your own blog to disseminate your own beliefs. “They can’t publish a blog but we can.” That just looks stupid.

    But don’t let’s get too carried away, everybody. These kind of behind-the-scenes activities, perhaps more heated in some respects, are the same in every field. Climate scientists are people and so are scientists in other areas. Bad behavior is nothing new and will never change, because people will always be people.

    —————————————————————————–

    (1)I wrote to the author of those words and asked, “I can understand that you feel strongly about the matter, but does your conviction run to harming the career of a fellow scientist merely because he disagrees with you?” I’ll let you know if I receive and answer.
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  20. #2620
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    , it can be frustrating talking to conspiracy theorists.
    We've been flogging this horse for years in this forum...

    During that time we've actually been able to witness the failure of catastrophic prediction after catastrophic prediction.

    Al Gore was telling us 10 years ago we only had 10 years to act.

    We were told the snow on Kilimanjaro was melting due to global warming only to find out is was a local phenomena.

    Polar bears...

    Hurricanes...

    Glacial ice...

    Temperatures...

    Hockey Sticks...

    E-mails...

    I think I read somewhere the beauty of the AGCC projections is they're predicting catastrophe just far enough in the future that it can be alarming without them being held accountable -- because their predictions are long forgotten -- when the day of doom arrives.

    We were all supposed to be starving from overpopulation and food shortages by 1999 -- according to scientists a few decades ago.

    We were supposed to all be freezing from global cooling by 2000, according to some of the same tens of thousands of AGCC scientists you want me to believe now.

    The Kyoto Protocol was a bank-busting, economy-destroying, farce that only ever promised to affect global temperature by an amount that was ridiculous. Most countries have quietly abandoned the plan.

    AGCC proponents want the rest of the world to play keep putting coins in the Whack-a-mole game for them to play.

    Sorry, there's no proof, none, zilch, zero, that humankind is having any appreciable affect on global climate.

    Those claims only exist in models designed by a group of people known to harbor some pretty dishonest people.

    Can they prove the climate changes? Well, who the can't do that?

    Can they prove man is effecting any of that change? No.

    This planet has experienced climate more extreme -- in both directions -- than what we have today and that is being predicted by the AGCC alarmists. And, we it will again, whether or not man is around to witness.

    How many ice ages did this planet experience before the first human walked the earth? Were there not warming periods between them?

    Sorry, I'm not sold. And, with the clowns the AGCC crowd allows to represent their position running around like a bunch of Chicken Littles while, at the same time, creating a bigger carbon footprint than most every other human being on the planet, I doubt I ever will be.

    I'll start acting like it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis.
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  21. #2621
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Here is where I repeatedly ask a conspiracy theorist to produce some accounts by people who "faked the moon landings", and was ignored:
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...postcount=3147

    Here is where I ask several conspiracy theorists to produce some accounts by people who "fake global warming data", and was ignored:

    (just read the last few pages)

    The patterns are sadly similar.

    Both conspiracies would require the active collusion of tens, if not hudreds, of thousands of people, including scientists who spend their lives in field of study. Both conspiracies are posited to be to the benefit of the people taking part.


    Large conspiracies tend to fall apart when someone really comes forward to out the whole thing. , even small conspiracies fall apart from attacks of conscience.

    The only logical conclusion is that, when one side fails to answer fair, honest questions, that side has no interest in being fair or honest.

    Once again, Darrin/Yonivore/Wild Cobra have made the case for the OP in the course of trying to disprove AGW. Guys, honestly, you should stop now, I don't need any more evidence for the OP. Thank you all.

    Good science requires healthy skepticism. Healthy skepticism in the form of honest questions and good faith answers is good for debate.

    It should be obvious at this point, that what we have here is not "healthy" skepticism.
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  22. #2622
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You brought up financial stake. Why does your confirmation bias only see the oil companies as being in this for money? What can't you have an open mind? Step outside that box please. Take off those colored glasses.
    I did indeed bring up the financial stake.

    You can't ask me to have an open mind if you, or Yoni can ignore the trillion dollar elephant in the room.

    Sorry it doesn't work that way.

    All any of you have to do is to answer a simple yes or no question, honestly.

    You can't.

    The only logical conclusion is that you don't want to be honest.
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  23. #2623
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    We've been flogging this horse for years in this forum...

    During that time we've actually been able to witness the failure of catastrophic prediction after catastrophic prediction.

    Al Gore was telling us 10 years ago we only had 10 years to act.

    We were told the snow on Kilimanjaro was melting due to global warming only to find out is was a local phenomena.

    Polar bears...

    Hurricanes...

    Glacial ice...

    Temperatures...

    Hockey Sticks...

    E-mails...

    I think I read somewhere the beauty of the AGCC projections is they're predicting catastrophe just far enough in the future that it can be alarming without them being held accountable -- because their predictions are long forgotten -- when the day of doom arrives.

    We were all supposed to be starving from overpopulation and food shortages by 1999 -- according to scientists a few decades ago.

    We were supposed to all be freezing from global cooling by 2000, according to some of the same tens of thousands of AGCC scientists you want me to believe now.

    The Kyoto Protocol was a bank-busting, economy-destroying, farce that only ever promised to affect global temperature by an amount that was ridiculous. Most countries have quietly abandoned the plan.

    AGCC proponents want the rest of the world to play keep putting coins in the Whack-a-mole game for them to play.

    Sorry, there's no proof, none, zilch, zero, that humankind is having any appreciable affect on global climate.

    Those claims only exist in models designed by a group of people known to harbor some pretty dishonest people.

    Can they prove the climate changes? Well, who the can't do that?

    Can they prove man is effecting any of that change? No.

    This planet has experienced climate more extreme -- in both directions -- than what we have today and that is being predicted by the AGCC alarmists. And, we it will again, whether or not man is around to witness.

    How many ice ages did this planet experience before the first human walked the earth? Were there not warming periods between them?

    Sorry, I'm not sold. And, with the clowns the AGCC crowd allows to represent their position running around like a bunch of Chicken Littles while, at the same time, creating a bigger carbon footprint than most every other human being on the planet, I doubt I ever will be.

    I'll start acting like it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis.

    All you have here is ad hominems and strawmen. As I said before, I stopped bothering to count them.
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  24. #2624
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Those who believe in AGW being the primary cause of our warming do not understand real science. i don't know what else to say. It's all been said, and I'm tired of arguing with religious fanatics, over the religion of AGW.
    Sorry, there's no proof, none, zilch, zero, that humankind is having any appreciable affect on global climate.

    Which is more dogmatic:

    Someone who claims that out of nearly a million research papers on the subject, there is "no proof" of AGW,

    or

    someone who acknowledges that it is entirely possible we might not have much affect, but thinks there seems to be enough evidence for it to be a reasonable conclusion?


    Either of you, feel free to step up and answer that.

    Since you are both liars, I will not hold my breath.
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  25. #2625
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Man, the amount of delusion in that last Yonivore post is impressive.

    Everyone knows the earth is flat, at the center of the universe, and only 6,000 years old.
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