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  1. #2901
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    560 Carpenter, K.E., M. Abrar, G. Aeby, R.B. Aronson, S. Banks,
    A. Bruckner, A. Chiriboga, J. Cortés, J.C. Delbeek, L.
    DeVantier, G.J. Edgar, A.J. Edwards, D. Fenner, H.M. Guzmán,
    B.W. Hoeksema, G. Hodgson, O. Johan, W.Y. Licuanan,
    S.R. Livingstone, E.R. Lovell, J.A. Moore, D.O. Obura, D.
    Ochavillo, B.A. Polidoro, W.F. Precht, M.C. Quibilan, C.
    Reboton, Z.T. Richards, A.D. Rogers, J. Sanciangco, A. Sheppard, C.
    Sheppard, J. Smith, S. Stuart, E. Turak, J.E.N. Veron, C. Wallace,
    E. Weil, and E. Wood, 2008: One-third of reef-building corals face
    elevated extinction risk from climate change and local impacts.
    Science, 321(5888), 560-563.
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  2. #2902
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Coral reefs sustain fisheries and tourism, have biodiversity value, scientific and educational value, and form natural protection against wave erosion.542
    For Hawaii alone, net benefits of reefs to the economy are estimated at $360 million annually, and the overall asset value is conservatively estimated to be
    nearly $10 billion.542
    In the Caribbean, coral reefs provide annual net benefits from fisheries, tourism, and shoreline protection services of between $3.1 billion and $4.6 billion.
    The loss of income by 2015 from degraded reefs is conservatively estimated at several hundred million dollars annually.532,543
    (note: this is pretty much the CURRENT costs of the economic losses of what has already occurred)

    532 CEO, 2004: Caribbean Environmental Outlook. [Heileman, S., L.J.
    Walling, C. Douglas, M. Mason, and M. Chevannes-Creary (eds.)].
    United Nations Environmental Programme, Kingston, Jamaica,
    114 pp. <http://www.unep.org/geo/pdfs/caribbean_eo.pdf>

    543 Hoegh-Guldberg, O., P.J. Mumby, A.J. Hooten, R.S. Steneck,
    P. Greenfield, E. Gomez, C.D. Harvell, P.F. Sale, A.J. Edwards,
    K. Caldeira, N. Knowlton, C.M. Eakin, R. Iglesias-Prieto, N.
    Muthiga, R.H. Bradbury, A. Dubi, and M.E. Hatziolos, 2007: Coral
    reefs under rapid climate change and ocean acidification. Science,
    318(5857), 1737-1742

    542 Cesar, H.S.F. and F.H. van Beukering, 2004: Economic valuation of
    the coral reefs of Hawaii. Pacific Science, 58(2), 231-242.


    -------------------------

    The "do nothing" solution, picks winners and losers. If your arugment about the policy is based on the fact that doing something picks winners and losers, then that is not a valid consideration, as both policy solutions have similar features, in that regard.

    Temporary oil jobs, vs. fishing, tourism, and coastal real estate.
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  3. #2903
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    But hey, we're not talking about science. It is much more important to focus on Al Gore.
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  4. #2904
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    You were done talking about science a while back.
    I believe I made that declaration after that statement was posted so, why do you bring it back up? I have no intention of arguing the science any more.

    I guess I should rephrase my statement to say, I have not been convinced by, nor have I seen any, compelling evidence to suggest the scientists claiming global climate change is being effected by anything mankind is doing.

    Random, you can post papers from scientists, I've never heard, of claiming that but; I don't know you, I don't know them, and I don't see their conclusions being presented in a public forum in a convincing way.

    What I see are a bunch of clowns telling me the sky is falling unless we reduce or CO2 output by amounts that seem incredibly difficult to achieve without draconian digressive means.

    What I see are people, I think are making reasonable arguments, telling me the science, in fact, isn't settled and that there's no conclusive evidence man is contributing to global warming at the level being claimed by your scientists.

    What I see are scandals, such as the conspiratorial e-mails from the University of East Anglia, where information not fitting the narrative is suppressed or misrepresented.

    That's what I, as a non-science geek, sees.

    For instance, I see statements like this:

    Richard Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences has made his views clear in several newspaper articles:

    "We are quite confident (1) that global mean temperature is about 0.5 °C higher than it was a century ago; (2) that atmospheric levels of CO2 have risen over the past two centuries; and (3) that CO2 is a greenhouse gas whose increase is likely to warm the earth (one of many, the most important being water vapor and clouds). But – and I cannot stress this enough – we are not in a position to confidently attribute past climate change to CO2 or to forecast what the climate will be in the future."

    "[T]here has been no question whatsoever that CO2 is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas – albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in CO2 should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed."
    I see those as reasonable statements.

    I see Lindzen as an Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences should know somewhat about what he's talking.

    I see this in these statements in the places where I consume my information, places I have come to trust over the years, and think -- hmmm, maybe there is something to what Lindzen says.

    I post that in here and you will a) vilify Lindzen and b) post a paper from a scientist the papers aren't quoting, who isn't on or in the news, and for whom it would take me an amount of time I'm not willing to invest to read and understand his work, validate his credentials, and determine the work actually says what you say it does to counter Lindzen.

    You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see the AGCC proponent scientists of your choosing in a public open debate against someone like Lindzen. If such a debate exists and is recorded -- I'd watch the whole damn thing.

    But, as you know, the public advocates that AGCC is real and leading to cataclysmic world destruction have no interest in debating the issue in an open forum.

    Another strike against your position.

    Please note, I do not want to argue the science implicated in Lindzen's statement -- I only used it to demonstrate I believe there are ostensibly credible people, heavily involved in climate science, that disagree with your position.
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  5. #2905
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Don't expect him to get anything. Once he makes up his mind, he knows he is wright, and anyone who disagree gets verbal attacks.
    Are you talking about Yonivore, or to Yonivore? I'm confused.

    (edit)

    To be fair, you could be talking about me, except I don't pretend to be a 'wright. Never been good with wood tools.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 04-19-2012 at 09:12 AM.
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  6. #2906
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I believe I made that declaration after that statement was posted so, why do you bring it back up? I have no intention of arguing the science any more.

    I guess I should rephrase my statement to say, I have not been convinced by, nor have I seen any, compelling evidence to suggest the scientists claiming global climate change is being effected by anything mankind is doing.

    Random, you can post papers from scientists, I've never heard, of claiming that but; I don't know you, I don't know them, and I don't see their conclusions being presented in a public forum in a convincing way.

    What I see are a bunch of clowns telling me the sky is falling unless we reduce or CO2 output by amounts that seem incredibly difficult to achieve without draconian digressive means.

    What I see are people, I think are making reasonable arguments, telling me the science, in fact, isn't settled and that there's no conclusive evidence man is contributing to global warming at the level being claimed by your scientists.

    What I see are scandals, such as the conspiratorial e-mails from the University of East Anglia, where information not fitting the narrative is suppressed or misrepresented.

    That's what I, as a non-science geek, sees.

    For instance, I see statements like this:


    I see those as reasonable statements.

    I see Lindzen as an Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences should know somewhat about what he's talking.

    I see this in these statements in the places where I consume my information, places I have come to trust over the years, and think -- hmmm, maybe there is something to what Lindzen says.

    I post that in here and you will a) vilify Lindzen and b) post a paper from a scientist the papers aren't quoting, who isn't on or in the news, and for whom it would take me an amount of time I'm not willing to invest to read and understand his work, validate his credentials, and determine the work actually says what you say it does to counter Lindzen.

    You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see the AGCC proponent scientists of your choosing in a public open debate against someone like Lindzen. If such a debate exists and is recorded -- I'd watch the whole damn thing.

    But, as you know, the public advocates that AGCC is real and leading to cataclysmic world destruction have no interest in debating the issue in an open forum.

    Another strike against your position.

    Please note, I do not want to argue the science implicated in Lindzen's statement -- I only used it to demonstrate I believe there are ostensibly credible people, heavily involved in climate science, that disagree with your position.
    Fair enough.

    You are seeking a level of certainty that will not be possible until it is quite possibly too late.

    That is not conservative risk management.

    The ealier we act, the more time we have, and the lower the costs of mitigation and damage are. I would point out that fossil fuels aren't going anywhere.

    You want us to blindly accept the risks and costs.

    That is the definition of foolish to me. I do not accept risks so cavalierly.
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  7. #2907
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I got it when you first brought it up.

    I love orbital.

    You should see the movie that the song "you lot" is based on. It is interesting and thought provoking, although controversial.
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  8. #2908
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Did you consider that a map like that would have to be prepared by someone? Who do you think prepared the map? The non-scientist buearocrat?
    OMG, Random! It doesn't matter who prepared the slide if it's illustrating

    Is the report as hysterical about the possibility the Keys will be under water as is the ABC Report?

    No. It actually reports variations that includes little change in sea levels.

    That's my point. The general public, at large, isn't going to read the report and say -- hmmm, it's possible but, the report doesn't actually say the Keys will be inundated.

    No, they're going to see the ABC report that breathlessly begins, "If you're thinking of retiring to Florida, think again."

    And, if they even bothered to watch the release of the report, streamed at WhiteHouse.gov, they're going to hear the presenter tell them and see Slide #11 illustrate that Florida will be under water by 2100.

    That's it. That's pretty much the extent of what they're going to know.
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  9. #2909
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I believe I made that declaration after that statement was posted so, why do you bring it back up? I have no intention of arguing the science any more.

    Richard Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences has made his views clear in several newspaper articles:

    "We are quite confident (1) that global mean temperature is about 0.5 °C higher than it was a century ago; (2) that atmospheric levels of CO2 have risen over the past two centuries; and (3) that CO2 is a greenhouse gas whose increase is likely to warm the earth (one of many, the most important being water vapor and clouds). But – and I cannot stress this enough – we are not in a position to confidently attribute past climate change to CO2 or to forecast what the climate will be in the future."

    "[T]here has been no question whatsoever that CO2 is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas – albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in CO2 should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed."



    I see Lindzen as an Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences should know somewhat about what he's talking.

    I see this in these statements in the places where I consume my information, places I have come to trust over the years, and think -- hmmm, maybe there is something to what Lindzen says.

    I post that in here and you will a) vilify Lindzen and b) post a paper from a scientist the papers aren't quoting, who isn't on or in the news, and for whom it would take me an amount of time I'm not willing to invest to read and understand his work, validate his credentials, and determine the work actually says what you say it does to counter Lindzen.
    Those statements seem fair to me as well.

    if all else were kept equal,
    This an important bit to me. All things are not kept equal, and there are other things that are going on. More reason for study and caution. We are flipping switches in a complex machine without fully knowing what those switches do.

    From what I can determine Lindzen is fairly credible.

    Why is he in the minority?
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  10. #2910
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Fair enough.

    You are seeking a level of certainty that will not be possible until it is quite possibly too late.
    But see, you say that in the context of a world where we have been told over and over again we were running out of time.

    That was the purpose of posting that 1989 article where the UN told me I'd be an eco-refugee by 2000.

    That's the problem. You need to find reasonable, credible messengers to explain the science.

    That is not conservative risk management.

    The ealier we act, the more time we have, and the lower the costs of mitigation and damage are. I would point out that fossil fuels aren't going anywhere.

    You want us to blindly accept the risks and costs.

    That is the definition of foolish to me.
    At what cost? The destruction of industries on the premise we may be avoiding some cataclysm is, to me, just as foolish.

    I do not accept risks so cavalierly.
    Nor do I; it just depends on how you define risk.

    And, I'm not convinced there's any risk to waiting until the science is actually settled.

    However, I see a real risk to our economy if the EPA -- on the premise of reducing CO2 emissions -- is allowed to regulated coal mines and coal-powered energy plants out of business.
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  11. #2911
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Those statements seem fair to me as well.

    This an important bit to me. All things are not kept equal, and there are other things that are going on. More reason for study and caution. We are flipping switches in a complex machine without fully knowing what those switches do.

    From what I can determine Lindzen is fairly credible.

    Why is he in the minority?
    I think the argument goes the AGCC "industry" has become too large to fail and heretics are few and far between because they don't want to see the government grants to dry up. There is a butt load of money in climate research.

    Why was Galileo in the minority? Because of the risks inherent in going against the establishment.

    That also goes to my oft-repeated statement that if the people telling me global climate change is a problem would start acting global climate change is a problem I might start thinking global climate change is a problem.

    The perceptions -- out in the real world, away from scientific geekland -- is that we're being scammed by hucksters; Gore being chief among them. To see him live in an energy guzzling mansion, creating a carbon footprint the size of Texas, and receiving a Nobel Prize just for creating a movie that purports to tell me something he's not living like he believes should make your stomach turn.

    People that don't ascribe to AGCC have already laughed him off the stage. The reason we keep throwing him in your face is because the AGCC community still embraces him and they haven't laughed him off the stage.
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  12. #2912
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    OMG, Random! It doesn't matter who prepared the slide if it's illustrating

    Is the report as hysterical about the possibility the Keys will be under water as is the ABC Report?

    No. It actually reports variations that includes little change in sea levels.

    That's my point. The general public, at large, isn't going to read the report and say -- hmmm, it's possible but, the report doesn't actually say the Keys will be inundated.

    No, they're going to see the ABC report that breathlessly begins, "If you're thinking of retiring to Florida, think again."

    And, if they even bothered to watch the release of the report, streamed at WhiteHouse.gov, they're going to hear the presenter tell them and see Slide #11 illustrate that Florida will be under water by 2100.

    That's it. That's pretty much the extent of what they're going to know.
    By the way, here's slide #11 from the White House PowerPoint Presentation:
    (ommitted to save bandwidth)
    The map shows parts of Florida, not all of Florida.

    If you want to rag on ABC for being sensationalistic, be my guest. It sells, and that is what the free market is supposed to do. Don't tell me you hate the free market all of a sudden. (poke poke)

    No barrier reefs, means that areas exposed to hurricaines will be eroded badly, such as the southern tip of Florida.

    Warmer waters means more energy for Hurricaines, all things held equal.

    This does not sound shrill or irrational.

    That coral reefs are dying. That isn't in dispute. It is measureable and an objective fact.

    The causes are posited as increased acidification, from increased dissolved CO2 in the water, and warming water.

    You can quibble, and are, about whether we are the cause for this.

    You don't know, any more than I do. We both have to trust scientists on this, like it or not, with all their fallibility.

    You are hanging your hat on the ambiguity of science about whether we are the cause.

    , there is still ambiguity about gravity, and we have been studying that a LOT longer, but we can use what we do know to do a heck of a lot.
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  13. #2913
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    The map shows parts of Florida, not all of Florida.
    The part of Florida that was the subject of the conversation was the Keys. They are under water in that slide.

    If you want to rag on ABC for being sensationalistic, be my guest. It sells, and that is what the free market is supposed to do. Don't tell me you hate the free market all of a sudden. (poke poke)
    I'm not ragging on ABC -- now right now, anyway -- I'm pointing out that when they sensationalize the effects of AGCC that later turn out to be gross exaggerations, it causes AGCC proponents to lose credibility.

    No barrier reefs, means that areas exposed to hurricaines will be eroded badly, such as the southern tip of Florida.

    Warmer waters means more energy for Hurricaines, all things held equal.

    This does not sound shrill or irrational.

    That coral reefs are dying. That isn't in dispute. It is measureable and an objective fact.

    The causes are posited as increased acidification, from increased dissolved CO2 in the water, and warming water.

    You can quibble, and are, about whether we are the cause for this.

    You don't know, any more than I do. We both have to trust scientists on this, like it or not, with all their fallibility.

    You are hanging your hat on the ambiguity of science about whether we are the cause.

    , there is still ambiguity about gravity, and we have been studying that a LOT longer, but we can use what we do know to do a heck of a lot.
    You're right, neither of us knows if the Florida Keys will be under water in a hundred years. We don't even know if that's likely.
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  14. #2914
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Scientific Consensus Redux

    Looking back, it turns out that a lot of scientific consensuses were wrong.

    http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/agreeing-to-agree


    Last week, the prestigious journal, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, published an article that tried to assess the relative credibility of climate scientists who “support the tenets of anthropogenic climate change” versus those who do not. One goal of the study is to “provide an independent assessment of level of scientific consensus concerning anthropogenic climate change.” The researchers found that 97–98 percent of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field are convinced of man-made climate change. In addition, using publication and citation data, the study found that the few climate change dissenters are far less scientifically prominent than convinced researchers. The article concludes, “This extensive analysis of the mainstream versus skeptical/contrarian researchers suggests a strong role for considering expert credibility in the relative weight of and attention to these groups of researchers in future discussions in media, policy, and public forums regarding anthropogenic climate change.” Translation: reporters, politicians, and citizens should stop listening to climate change skeptics.

    Naturally, there has been some pushback against the article. For example, Georgia Ins ute of Technology climatologist Judith Curry who was not pigeonholed in the study told ScienceInsider, “This is a completely unconvincing analysis.” One of the chief objections to the findings is that peer review is stacked in favor of the consensus view, locking skeptics out of publishing in major scientific journals. John Christy, a prominent climate change researcher at the University of Alabama in Huntsville who is skeptical of catastrophic claims, asserted that because of “the tight interdependency between funding, reviewers, popularity. ... We [skeptical researchers] are being ‘black‑listed,’ as best I can tell, by our colleagues.”

    This fight over credibility prompted me to wonder about the role that the concept of a “scientific consensus” has played out in earlier policy debates. We all surely want our decisions to be guided by the best possible information. Consider the overwhelming consensus among researchers that biotech crops are safe for humans and the environment—a conclusion that is rejected by the very environmentalist organizations that loudly insist on the policy relevance of the scientific consensus on global warming. But I digress.

    Taking a lead from the PNAS researchers I decided to mine the “literature” on the history of uses of the phrase “scientific consensus.” I restricted my research to Nexis searches of major world publications, figuring that’s where mainstream views would be best represented. So how has the phrase “scientific consensus” been used in past policy debates?

    My Nexis search found that 36 articles using that phrase appeared in major world publications prior to my arbitrary June 1985 search cutoff. One of the first instances of the uses of the phrase appears in the July 1, 1979 issue of The Washington Post on the safety of the artificial sweetener saccharin. “The real issue raised by saccharin is not whether it causes cancer (there is now a broad scientific consensus that it does)” (parenthetical in original) reported the Post. The sweetener was listed in 1981 in the U.S. National Toxicology Program’s Report on Carcinogens as a substance reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen. Interesting. Thirty years later, the National Cancer Ins ute reports that “there is no clear evidence that saccharin causes cancer in humans.” In light of this new scientific consensus, the sweetener was delisted as a probable carcinogen in 2000.

    Similarly, the Post reported later that same year (October 6, 1979) a “profound shift” in the prevailing scientific consensus about the causes of cancer. According to the Post, researchers in the 1960s believed that most cancers were caused by viruses, but now diet was considered the far more important factor. One of the more important findings was that increased dietary fiber appeared to reduce significantly the incidence of colon cancer. Twenty years later, a major prospective study of nearly 90,000 women reported, “No significant association between fiber intake and the risk of colorectal adenoma was found.” In 2005, another big study confirmed that “high dietary fiber intake was not associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer.” While dietary fiber may not prevent colon cancer, it is associated with lower cardiovascular risk.

    In its June 1, 1984 issue, The Washington Post reported the issuance of a massive new report by the White House science office supporting the scientific consensus that “agents found to cause cancer in animals should be considered ‘suspect human carcinogens,’” and that “giving animals high doses of an agent is a proper way to test its carcinogenicity.” Although such studies remain a regulatory benchmark, at least some researchers question the usefulness of such tests today.

    The December 17, 1979 issue of Newsweek reported that the Department of Energy was boosting research spending on fusion energy reactors based on a scientific consensus that the break-even point—that a fusion reactor would produce more energy than it consumes—could be passed within five years. That hasn’t happened yet and the latest effort to spark a fusion energy revolution, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, will not be ready for full-scale testing until 2026.

    An article in the June 8, 1981 issue of The Washington Post cited a spokesman for the American Medical Association opposing proposed federal legislation that would make abortion murder as saying, "The legislation is founded on the idea that a scientific consensus exists that life begins at the time of conception. We will go up there to say that no such consensus exists." It still doesn’t.

    In the years prior to 1985, several publications reported the scientific consensus that acid rain emitted by coal-fired electricity generation plants belching sulfur dioxide was destroying vast swathes of forests and lakes in the eastern United States. For example, the March 10, 1985 New York Times cited environmental lawyer Richard Ottinger, who asserted that there is a “broad scientific consensus'' that acid rain is destroying lakes and forests and ''is a threat to our health.'' In 1991, after 10 years and $500 million, the National Acid Precipitation Assessment Program study (as far as I can tell that report is oddly missing from the web) actually reported, according to a 1992 article in Reason: “The assessment concluded that acid rain was not damaging forests, did not hurt crops, and caused no measurable health problems. The report also concluded that acid rain helped acidify only a fraction of Northeastern lakes and that the number of acid lakes had not increased since 1980.” Nevertheless, Congress passed the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments that regulate sulfur dioxide emissions through a cap-and-trade scheme. Acid rain was clearly causing some problems, but was not the wide-scale environmental disaster that had been feared.

    Interestingly, the only mention of a scientific consensus with regard to stratospheric ozone depletion by ubiquitous chlorofluorocarbon (CFCs) refrigerants was an article in the October 6, 1982 issue of the industry journal Chemical Week. That article noted that the National Research Council had just issued a report that had cut estimates of ozone depletion in half from a 1979 NRC report. The 1982 NRC report noted, “Current scientific understanding…indicates that if the production of two CFCs …were to continue into the future at the rate prevalent in 1977 the steady state reduction in total global ozone…could be between 5 and 9 percent.” Such a reduction might have been marginally harmful, but not catastrophic. It was not until 1986 that the mainstream press reported the discovery of the “ozone hole” over Antarctica. This discovery quickly led to the adoption of an international treaty aiming to drastically reduce the global production of CFCs in 1987. (For what it is worth, I supported the international ban of CFCs in my 1993 book Eco-Scam.)

    With regard to anthropogenic climate change, my Nexis search of major world publications finds before 1985 just a single 1981 New York Times article. “There has been a growing scientific consensus that the buildup of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is creating a ‘greenhouse effect’ by trapping some of the earth's heat and warming the atmosphere,” reported the Times in its January 14, 1981 issue.

    What a difference the passage of 25 years makes. My Nexis search turned up 457 articles in major publications that in the last year cited or used the phrase “scientific consensus.” Checking to see how many combined that phrase with “climate change,” Nexis reported that the number comes to 342 articles. Briefly scanning through a selection of the articles it is clear that some of them involved the controversy over whether or not there is a “scientific consensus” on climate change. The majority appear to cite various experts and policymakers asserting the existence of a scientific consensus that anthropogenic climate change is dangerous to humanity.

    So what to make of this increase in the use of the concept of “scientific consensus?” After all, several scientific consensuses before 1985 turned out to be wrong or exaggerated, e.g., saccharin, dietary fiber, fusion reactors, stratospheric ozone depletion, and even arguably acid rain and high-dose animal testing for carcinogenicity. One reasonable response might be that anthropogenic climate change is different from the cited examples because much more research has been done. And yet. One should always keep in mind that a scientific consensus crucially determines and limits the questions researchers ask. And one should always worry about to what degree supporters of any given scientific consensus risk suc bing to confirmation bias. In any case, the credibility of scientific research is not ultimately determined by how many researchers agree with it or how often it is cited by like-minded colleagues, but whether or not it conforms to reality.
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  15. #2915
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I think the argument goes the AGCC "industry" has become too large to fail and heretics are few and far between because they don't want to see the government grants to dry up. There is a butt load of money in climate research.

    Why was Galileo in the minority? Because of the risks inherent in going against the establishment.

    That also goes to my oft-repeated statement that if the people telling me global climate change is a problem would start acting global climate change is a problem I might start thinking global climate change is a problem.

    The perceptions -- out in the real world, away from scientific geekland -- is that we're being scammed by hucksters; Gore being chief among them. To see him live in an energy guzzling mansion, creating a carbon footprint the size of Texas, and receiving a Nobel Prize just for creating a movie that purports to tell me something he's not living like he believes should make your stomach turn.

    People that don't ascribe to AGCC have already laughed him off the stage. The reason we keep throwing him in your face is because the AGCC community still embraces him and they haven't laughed him off the stage.
    More ad hominem.

    , let's set aside the logic for a second.

    I'll use your metrics.

    That means if I can find one huckster in the "skeptics" camp, I can harp on that endlessly, and use it to disprove the skeptics?

    Should I bring up the bit I found about Dr. Moerner again? Should I scour the denier blogs and start posting all the easily debunkable statements, logical fallacies and so forth on the part of the "skeptics"?

    Do you doubt I could find more than a small amount of deceptiion, bad science, and flawed logic? I have already, when I have taken the time to dig into stuff you try to present as honest skepticism.

    Are you going to similarly disavow these people? There are more than a few hacks I could pick from.
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  16. #2916
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Scientific Consensus Redux

    Looking back, it turns out that a lot of scientific consensuses were wrong.

    http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/agreeing-to-agree

    In any case, the credibility of scientific research is not ultimately determined by how many researchers agree with it or how often it is cited by like-minded colleagues, but whether or not it conforms to reality.
    Indeed.

    It is a of a lot easier to get people to go along, if your theory is the best one.

    Otherwise, you have to believe ty conspiracy theories to justify your beliefs.
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  17. #2917
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    More ad hominem.

    , let's set aside the logic for a second.

    I'll use your metrics.

    That means if I can find one huckster in the "skeptics" camp, I can harp on that endlessly, and use it to disprove the skeptics?
    That's pretty much what happens.

    The great unwashed masses are left to figure it out for themselves.

    Should I bring up the bit I found about Dr. Moerner again? Should I scour the denier blogs and start posting all the easily debunkable statements, logical fallacies and so forth on the part of the "skeptics"?

    Do you doubt I could find more than a small amount of deceptiion, bad science, and flawed logic? I have already, when I have taken the time to dig into stuff you try to present as honest skepticism.

    Are you going to similarly disavow these people? There are more than a few hacks I could pick from.
    I'm going to remain unconvinced.

    I think we've washed the dog here, Random. See you in another thread.
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  18. #2918
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The part of Florida that was the subject of the conversation was the Keys. They are under water in that slide.

    ...

    You're right, neither of us knows if the Florida Keys will be under water in a hundred years. We don't even know if that's likely.
    Yes, actually, we do.

    We have current trends. We have little evidence that those trends will change.

    We have current conditions.

    Criticaly Eroded Beaches in the Florida Keys (symbolized in red)

    There is a total of 36.3 miles of beaches that line the Florida Keys and attract both tourists and marine life. Unfortunately, 10.2 miles of this, or 28% of the beaches that line the Keys are deemed critically eroded. So far, with the effort of the state of Florida, 1.4 miles of the beaches have been restored and maintained leaving 8.8mi left in critical state. The two regions that have been hit the hardest are the Middle Keys and the Lower Keys. The Middle Keys region spans from Tavernier Creek to Pigeon Key and currently has 3.5 miles of critically eroded beaches along its shoreline. The hardest hit of all the sub-regions in the Keys is the span from Pigeon Key to Key West, Florida. This region alone has 6.7 miles of critically eroded beaches (Bureau, 2008)


    Currently the process of restoring the beaches in much of the Keys is to truck sand in from a different location and place it on the sites of the critically eroded beaches. Vegetation is also grown in order to reinforce the sand and prevent further beach erosion. However, these efforts are very costly due to the shipping costs, the labor costs, and also the material costs.
    http://cee514coastalanalysisfloridak...m/erosion.html

    This is not an unknown.

    Warming isn't the only thing causing the die offs though, to be fair.

    In the Caribbean alone, with a decrease of 80% over the last three decades, the coral reef coverage has dramatically changed, causing negative effects on the ecosystem (Gardener, 2003). These declines are directly related to human interferences. The amount of the coral reefs that is estimated to have been impacted by human activities is up to 97% (Lipp, 2002). The two main human impacts in the Florida Keys are the amounts of runoff and wastewater that flow into the Caribbean basin and also the amount of recreational and commercial fishing.

    Especially in the Keys, human pollution is affecting the coral reefs. Along with being a human health risk and risk to the swimmers, wastewater is an issue impacting the corals. A study at the University of South Florida showed quan ative amounts of wastewater indicators in the coral surface microlayers (CSM). These microlayers are layers of mucus that cover the top few millimeters of the coral. Indicators of human feces bacteria were found in 93.3% of the CSM samples (Lipp, 2002).
    We're going to have to address a whole host of other things, that to me seem highly unlikely to happen. Unless you want more government interference in the free market that is causing the problem? I don't see that happening.
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  19. #2919
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Indeed.

    It is a of a lot easier to get people to go along, if your theory is the best one.

    Otherwise, you have to believe ty conspiracy theories to justify your beliefs.

    What if your theory is : stress causes peptic ulcers? It was "common knowledge" just 20 years ago, until they figured out that the bacterium Helicobacter pylori was causing it.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ulcer/history.htm



    The road to a cure for ulcers has been a long and bumpy one. Recent news that ulcers are caused by a bacterium and can be cured with antibiotics has changed traditional thinking. Physicians and consumers have not been informed of the good news.

    ...


    1995
    Data show that about 75 percent of ulcer patients are still treated primarily with antisecretory medications, and only 5 percent receive antibiotic therapy. Consumer research by the American Digestive Health Foundation finds that nearly 90 percent of ulcer sufferers are unaware that H. pylori causes ulcers. In fact, nearly 90 percent of those with ulcers blame their ulcers on stress or worry, and 60 percent point to diet.
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  20. #2920
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    That's pretty much what happens.

    The great unwashed masses are left to figure it out for themselves.


    I'm going to remain unconvinced.

    I think we've washed the dog here, Random. See you in another thread.
    I agree. It is pretty much done. Thanks for the conversation though. I don't agree with you about it, but it was good.
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  21. #2921
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9576387/...rize-medicine/



    Dr. Barry Marshall was so determined to convince the world that bacteria — not stress — caused ulcers that he drank a batch of it.

    Five days later he was throwing up, and he had severe stomach inflammation for about two weeks.

    It was just the result he was hoping for. His bold action over 20 years ago symbolized the perseverance Marshall brought to proving a controversial idea — one that gained the ultimate validation Monday as he and Dr. Robin Warren won the Nobel Prize in medicine.

    The discovery by the two Australians that ulcers weren’t caused by stress, but rather by the bacterium Helicobacter pylori, turned medical dogma on its head. As a result, peptic ulcer disease has been transformed from a chronic, frequently disabling condition to one that can be cured by a short regimen of antibiotics and other medicines, said the Nobel Assembly of the Karolinska Ins ute in Stockholm.

    'No one believed it'
    Warren, a retired pathologist, said it took a decade for others to accept their findings.


    The long-standard teaching in medicine was that “the stomach was sterile and nothing grew there because of corrosive gastric juices,” he said. “So everybody believed there were no bacteria in the stomach.”

    “When I said they were there, no one believed it,” he added.

    The two researchers began working together in 1981. “After about three years we were pretty convinced that these bacteria were important in ulcers and it was a frustrating time for the next 10 years though because nobody believed us,” said Marshall, a researcher at the University of Western Australia.

    The idea of stress and things like that was just so entrenched nobody could really believe that it was bacteria. It had to come from some weird place like Perth, Western Australia, because I think nobody else would have even considered it.”

    ....

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  22. #2922
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    What if your theory is : stress causes peptic ulcers? It was "common knowledge" just 20 years ago, until they figured out that the bacterium Helicobacter pylori was causing it.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ulcer/history.htm
    More faulty logic. I have debunked this type of idea already.

    That you can't see how/why this is a bad argument has ceased to concern me. I am a bit tired of spoon feeding you critical thinking. Not only is this bad logic, the underlying idea actually supports AGW. If you can't figure out why I might think that, then you simply prove my OP.

    You can stop proving the OP already. I don't need any more from you to prove that to any reasonable degree. Thank you.
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  23. #2923
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    I agree. It is pretty much done. Thanks for the conversation though. I don't agree with you about it, but it was good.
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  24. #2924
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    That's the problem. You need to find reasonable, credible messengers to explain the science.
    How about the insurance industry?

    And why not fixate on something that was said 25 years ago? You seem the well thought out arbiter of what stuff has to do with anything.

    Your incredulity argument rings hollow when nothing meets your supposed standards.
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  25. #2925
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Oh, stop with the faint praise; you know you think I'm an idiotic far right-wing conservative stuck on stupid.

    None of which is true, by the way, but -- nevertheless -- it's really what you project in here. You, and Manny, and Random, and a few others -- and all simply because we don't agree with your world view, won't accept your sources uncritically, and don't cave to the incessant drumbeat of your truths.

    As for me, I just simply think you're wrong on some issues and I try, stubbornly (as you said), to get you to understand my position -- not necessarily agree with it, but understand how it might be a reasonable position to take.
    I put on the spot I actually put you on the ground of average when it comes to intelligence. You have yet to surprise me with your a en and you are certainly intellectually lazy which in large part I think is intentional but at the same time you are definitely the special brand of stupid that WC brings to the table. I really do not for sure though. You do not have a constant litany of plain stupid takes; you just have halflhearted attempts at understanding that falls back on pundits.

    Its pretty common in this country and especially this state.

    Youre in some ways a generic AM Talk Radio/Drudge Report/news via emails and blogs type but I don't think your far right wing either.
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