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  1. #26
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Your animus seems to have unbalanced you. Consider that it's just possible you misunderstood ChumpDumper. The conclusions you reach about him require unfriendly inferences that are not plain in what he has posted in the thread.
    I was never looking at this from the angle you are. I am looking at it from a strict legal perspective. That's what the argument always was for me. I make moral judgments from time to time, but I am relying on the law here. It’s a different culture. Not ours. I believe in sovereign rights. Do you?

    As for animosity? Yes, Chump and I have a history where he goes ballistic. I sometimes lose my control and follow. He has actually maintained himself rather well in this thread. So have I, for our history.

    He points out the shipments are illegal. He describes the legal landscape, incorrectly in your view, but this isn't equivalent to "a fascist at ude of controlling people," or somehow that he wishes to deprive the Kurds of their rights.
    The fascist reference was prompted by your added implications. I have yet to see where anyone can show the arms shipment to be illegal, or improper.

    Can you?

    Besides, whether the Kurds are legally justified in arming themselves misses the whole point. What is cause for concern is that the Kurds may provoke a a regional goat involving Turkey/Iran/Iraq.
    I have yet to see where anyone can show the arms shipment to be illegal, or improper.

    So you think we, or the Iraqi government, should prevent the Kurds from the capacity to defend themselves. They are in a hot-spot and are justified in fortifying their defensive posture. Just because of the possibility they decide to start a conflict instead, you want them to be defenseless? Doesn’t that invite trouble?

  2. #27
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I was never looking at this from the angle you are. I am looking at it from a strict legal perspective. That's what the argument always was for me. I make moral judgments from time to time, but I am relying on the law here.
    This amounts to focusing on an irrelevancy IMO. It doesn't matter who's right. The Kurds will do whatever they want.



    The fascist reference was prompted by your added implications. I have yet to see where anyone can show the arms shipment to be illegal, or improper.

    Can you?
    Again, beside the point.



    The So you think we, or the Iraqi government, should prevent the Kurds from the capacity to defend themselves. They are in a hot-spot and are justified in fortifying their defensive posture. Just because of the possibility they decide to start a conflict instead, you want them to be defenseless? Doesn’t that invite trouble?
    This is proleptic. Problem is, you keep guessing wrong. I don't think we or the Iraqi government can prevent the Kurds from doing anything they want to do. But Turkey and Iran may want to try, and so will Iraq if the Kurds try to take Kirkuk.

    What I said about the genie upstream is a clue. IMO the focus needs to be on the strategic context. The argument about legal justification goes nowhere.

  3. #28
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    What I said about the genie upstream is a clue. IMO the focus needs to be on the strategic context. The argument about legal justification goes nowhere.
    Without law, what do you have?

  4. #29
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I have yet to see where anyone can show the arms shipment to be illegal, or improper.

    Can you?
    Again, beside the point.
    Wrong. That is the point. Look at the start of our discussion. Its all is about the legality of it.

    Discuss the other points if you want with others. I am only arguing the legality.

  5. #30
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I believe in sovereign rights.
    You should probably look up that word too.

    So you think we, or the Iraqi government, should prevent the Kurds from the capacity to defend themselves. They are in a hot-spot and are justified in fortifying their defensive posture. Just because of the possibility they decide to start a conflict instead, you want them to be defenseless? Doesn’t that invite trouble?
    It's really only a hot spot because of the Kurdish independence movements. If you can make me believe the Kurdish government is going to repress those movements for the greater stability of the region, I will concede that it is a brilliant move that should be applauded and encouraged.

  6. #31
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    You should probably look up that word too.
    Whay are you always such an ass?

    It's really only a hot spot because of the Kurdish independence movements. If you can make me believe the Kurdish government is going to repress those movements for the greater stability of the region, I will concede that it is a brilliant move that should be applauded and encouraged.
    So what.

    I was never arguing that point. Only the legality. You fell for the propaganda that it was an illegal arms shipment. Now you change the subject, like always, when you realize you are wong.

    Can't you for once, admit that you were wrong?

    Again... I was never arguing that point! I agree this could become an issue in the future.

    Have any solutions that don't violate the laws?

  7. #32
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Wrong. That is the point. Look at the start of our discussion. Its all is about the legality of it.

    Discuss the other points if you want with others. I am only arguing the legality.
    No problem.

    If you will suffer me to introduce something that is germane to my own post into the conversation, please consider:

    Given that the de facto Kurdistan owes its existence to the protection afforded them by US forces over the last 17 years, what assistance, if any, do we owe them in the case of hostilities with Turkey, Iran or Iraq?

    Apart from this real possibility, do you think it was wise for the US to have created a Kurdish homeland in Northern Iraq, inasmuch as our ally, Turkey, has said it will never permit an independent Kurdistan to be established along its borders?

    Just curious. Of course you're not required to consider any of the possible results of the de facto par ion of Iraq in the wake of the Gulf War, but I'd be interested to know what you think about it, WC, since our government must consider it.

    US forces are still in autonomous Kurdlandia. We don't have the option of ignoring the outbreak of a regional war started by or against the Kurds, and war between Iraq and the Kurds is a virtual certainty at some point, given at udes on both sides about Kirkuk.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Winehole23; 11-27-2008 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #33
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    No problem.

    If you will suffer me to introduce something that is germane to my own post into the conversation, please consider:

    Given that the de facto Kurdistan owes its existence to the protection afforded them by US forces over the last 17 years, what assistance, if any, do we owe them in the case of hostilities with Turkey, Iran or Iraq?

    Apart from this real possibility, do you think it was wise for the US to have created a Kurdish homeland in Northern Iraq, inasmuch as our ally, Turkey, has said it will never permit an independent Kurdistan to be established along its borders?

    Just curious. Of course you're not required to consider any of the possible results of the de facto par ion of Iraq in the wake of the Gulf War, but I'd be interested to know what you think about it, WC, since our government must consider it.

    US forces are still in autonomous Kurdlandia. We don't have the option of ignoring the outbreak of a regional war started by or against the Kurds, and war between Iraq and the Kurds is a virtual certainty at some point, given at udes on both sides about Kirkuk.

    Any thoughts?
    Sorry, that's one of several subjects I am not versed on. I could come to one of several positions depending on what I learn as facts should I choose to research it more. I know there is strife between the Kurds and others, but I don't know enough about the real extent of the situation.

    I do not trust the mainstream news for accurate information!

  9. #34
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Steve Coll:

    During the Bush Administration, adventurers like Dallas-headquartered Hunt Oil paved the way for ExxonMobil, which cut a deal in Erbil in 2011. Bush and his advisers could not bring themselves to force American oil companies such as Hunt to divest from Kurdistan or to sanction non-American investors. They allowed the wildcatters to do as they pleased while insisting that Erbil’s politicians negotiate oil-revenue sharing and political unity with Baghdad. Erbil’s rulers never quite saw the point of a final compromise with Baghdad’s Shiite politicians—as each year passed, the Kurds got richer on their own terms, they attracted more credible and deep-pocketed oil companies as partners, and they looked more and more like they led a de-facto state. The Obama Administration has done nothing to reverse that trend.


    And so, in Erbil, in the weeks to come, American pilots will defend from the air a capital whose growing independence and wealth has loosened Iraq’s seams, even while, in Baghdad, American diplomats will persist quixotically in an effort to s ch that same country together to confront ISIS.


    Obama’s defense of Erbil is effectively the defense of an undeclared Kurdish oil state whose sources of geopolitical appeal—as a long-term, non-Russian supplier of oil and gas to Europe, for example—are best not spoken of in polite or naïve company, as Al Swearengen would well understand. Life, Swearengen once pointed out, is often made up of “one vile task after another.” So is American policy in Iraq.
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/oil-erbil

  10. #35
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    Sorry, that's one of several subjects I am not versed on. I could come to one of several positions depending on what I learn as facts should I choose to research it more. I know there is strife between the Kurds and others, but I don't know enough about the real extent of the situation.

    I do not trust the mainstream news for accurate information!
    "several" ?

  11. #36
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    counterpoint:

    Whenever the US takes military action in the Middle East, oil surfaces as the supposed primary rationale. So it is with president Barack Obama’s air war against ISIL, the Islamic militants who threaten Irbil, capital of Iraqi Kurdistan. In the New Yorker, Steve Coll writes that the strikes are “effectively the defense of an undeclared Kurdish oil state.” Robert Fisk comments similarly in the Independent and John Judis in the New Republic.

    The argument is seductive. For three years, Kurdistan has parlayed the commercial interest of the world’s largest oil companies into increasingly sovereign status from Baghdad. Take away the oil and the Kurds are merely another rugged people with dreams of statehood.

    Yet this simple explanation has problems. The first is that the Obama administration has steadfastly discouragedExxonMobil, Chevron and the other companies from working in Kurdistan. Until recently, it sought to sabotage the region’s efforts to export its oil. The White House’s rationale has been that, to the degree Kurdistan gains de facto financial independence from Baghdad, the less likely that Iraq will hold together as a country. On Twitter, Middle East energy expert Robin Mills has been among those pushing against the it’s-about-oil theory.
    http://qz.com/247762/no-oil-isnt-beh...-against-isil/

  12. #37
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    pgardn

    US bombing ISIS or whatever as humanitarian tactic is, just coincidentally of course, all about Kurdish OIL and US/UK BigOil working it.

  13. #38
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    No problem.

    If you will suffer me to introduce something that is germane to my own post into the conversation, please consider:

    Given that the de facto Kurdistan owes its existence to the protection afforded them by US forces over the last 17 years, what assistance, if any, do we owe them in the case of hostilities with Turkey, Iran or Iraq?

    Apart from this real possibility, do you think it was wise for the US to have created a Kurdish homeland in Northern Iraq, inasmuch as our ally, Turkey, has said it will never permit an independent Kurdistan to be established along its borders?

    Just curious. Of course you're not required to consider any of the possible results of the de facto par ion of Iraq in the wake of the Gulf War, but I'd be interested to know what you think about it, WC, since our government must consider it.

    US forces are still in autonomous Kurdlandia. We don't have the option of ignoring the outbreak of a regional war started by or against the Kurds, and war between Iraq and the Kurds is a virtual certainty at some point, given at udes on both sides about Kirkuk.

    Any thoughts?
    Reference Turkey. Please note the folliowing.

    Following US withdrawal
    Further information: Disputed territories of Northern Iraq
    Disputed areas in Iraq prior to the 2014 Northern Iraq offensive.
    Disputed and part of the Kurdish Regional Government since 1991.
    Disputed and under the control of central government.

    Tensions between Iraqi Kurdistan and the central Iraqi government mounted through 2011-2012 on the issues of power sharing, oil production and territorial control. In April 2012, the president of Iraq's semi-autonomous northern Kurdish region demanded that officials agree to their demands or face the prospect of secession from Baghdad by September 2012.[51]

    In September 2012, the Iraqi government ordered the KRG to transfer its powers over the Peshmerga to the central government. Relations became further strained by the formation of a new command center (Tigris Operation Command) for Iraqi forces to operate in a disputed area over which both Baghdad and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) claim jurisdiction.[52] On 16 November 2012 a military clash between the Iraqi forces and the Peshmerga resulted in one person killed.[52] CNN reported that 2 people were killed (one of them an Iraqi soldier) and 10 wounded in clashes at the Tuz Khurmato town.[53]

    During the 2014 Northern Iraq offensive, Iraqi Kurdistan seized the city of Kirkuk and the surrounding area, as well as most of the disputed territories in Northern Iraq.

    On 1 July 2014, Massud Barzani announced that that "Iraq's Kurds will hold an independence referendum within months."[54] After previously opposing the independence for Iraqi Kurdistan, Turkey has later given signs that it could recognize an independent Kurdish state.[54][55] On 11 July 2014 KRG forces seized control of the Bai Hassan and Kirkuk oilfields, prompting a condemnation from Baghdad and a threat of "dire consequences," if the oilfields were not relinquished back to Iraq's control.[56]

    The region is currently endangered by the rapid advance of ISIS from the southwest. In August, the US began a campaign of airstrikes in Iraq, in part to protect Kurdish areas such as Erbil from the militants.[57]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

    For all practical purposes the Kurds have been independent of Baghdad for years. No way could Iraq impose their rule on the Kurds. I do agree that more than likely the reason we haven't supplied arms to the Kurds was because of the Turks. They have been having lots of problems with border incursions and the Kurds in Turkey itself. But if you will note the Turks themselves, even though they have made several incursions into Kurd territory, haven't wanted to tangle with them.

    Arms shipments in the ME being illegal is a joke. Who is to stop them and there are many sellers who will supply the arms if they ANYONE has the bucks.

  14. #39
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    100% correct at the time of posting, but times do change.

    thanks for the update, xray.

  15. #40
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    conditional support for an independent Kurdistan is just that

  16. #41
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    "Arms shipments in the ME being illegal is a joke."

    ... just like in USA.



  17. #42
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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  18. #43
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    Thanks, dubya and head!

    How's that Iraqi oil workin out for ya?

  19. #44
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Thanks, dubya and head!
    Four consecutive US Presidents have attacked Iraq, two of them before Bush/Cheney.

  20. #45
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    Four consecutive US Presidents have attacked Iraq, two of them before Bush/Cheney.
    St Ronnie and Rummy SUPPORTED Iraq against Iran.

    When/how did Clinton attack Iraq?

    Pappy Bush stayed out of Iraq, earning him "wimp" from Repug war mongers.

    It was dubya and head and PNAC neo-cons who INVADED and DESTROYED Iraq, and de-stablized the Middle East, probably for decades.

    Thanks, dubya and head!

    How's that Iraqi oil workin out for ya?



  21. #46
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    When/how did Clinton attack Iraq?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox

  22. #47
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    your blind spot is showing

  23. #48
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    your blind spot is showing
    whine hole

    bombing accomplished nothing, since there was nothing to bomb, and the inspectors eventually said Saddam hadn't had WMD since 1992, and the US NEVER found them.

    dubya, hnead, BigOil INVADING and destroying Iraq and destabilizing the Middle East and North Africa is totally different for Clinton's bombing, my little blind stalker, a huge difference your false equivalence of "they all did it" blindly avoids.

    Thanks, dubya and head!

    How's that Iraqi oil workin out for ya?


  24. #49
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    bombing accomplished nothing
    so Clinton did attack Iraq. glad we agree.

  25. #50
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    pgardn

    US bombing ISIS or whatever as humanitarian tactic is, just coincidentally of course, all about Kurdish OIL and US/UK BigOil working it.
    Oh so bombing around the mountain was just a set up for what was really important...
    The Kurds having oil has very little to no effect on our thirst for oil, look at the numbers.
    What it does do is give a more stable region a source of income.

    You continually extrapolate oil into every possible pigeonhole. An no, you are not the only one.
    The oil companies will eventually blow up Tesla and the use of solar power charging stations, what's the plan?
    The Wind Turbines making Texas the biggest producer of wind power, what's the plan?

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