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  1. #101
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    As I have said before you simply do not seem capable of truly comprehending the ultimate nature of our current conflict.

    If you cannot understand the nature of the conflict, you cannot construct effective strategies for that conflict.
    Okay, what is the nature of our current conflict.

    Because what I see is that a large network of religious fascists have determined the United States of America, it Western allies, and just about every other non-Muslim on the planet are an existential threat to the re-establishment of a Islamic Caliphate and they are determined -- by whatever means necessary -- to either, eliminate non-Muslims, convert them to their fundamentalist view of Islam, or subjugate them in Dhimmitude.

    What is your take?

  2. #102
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    If our actions in dealing with current murderous thugs create more future murderous thugs, would those actions be effective?
    Just because murderous thugs are able to make you believe this is why they become murderous thugs doesn't make it so. Or, even, just because other murderous thugs are able to recruit more murderous thugs by demonizing the United States of America, doesn't mean they wouldn't have been recruited by other means.

    Murderous thugs pre-disposed to be murderous thugs are easily convinced.

    Remember the cartoon crap? It doesn't take much to make them murderous thugs, does it? And, you simple help the cause by taking their side in demonizing the actions of our government in a misguided attempt at taking the moral highground. RandomGuy, our enemy in this fight has no intention of ever taking the moral highground and they laugh at our angst over the issue.

    But, more than laugh, they use it to turn us against ourselves.

  3. #103
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    This thread is where Yoni and the "pro-torture" people always fail:



    LOL at "pro-torture" people



    You know, I'm not a "pro-murder" guy, but I would not hesitate to kill someone that breaks into my house and tries to harm my family.

  4. #104
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    LOL at "pro-torture" people



    You know, I'm not a "pro-murder" guy, but I would not hesitate to kill someone that breaks into my house and tries to harm my family.
    That only makes you "pro-defense"

    Just as torturing terrorists to extract information that could save innocent lives makes you "pro-life" and not "pro-torture."

  5. #105
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Okay, here's food for thought...

    While I think the "ticking time bomb" scenario is a legitimate reason to employ extreme measures -- including torture -- to extract information that could potentially save the lives of those in proximity to the bomb; that situation rarely presents itself. Well, that we know of. My comfort with extreme interrogation methods is more based on the fact -- yes fact -- that we have, from time to time, taken prisoners that are known to have information about the highest levels of al Qaeda planning and operations.

    Using extreme interrogation techniques to learn about any ongoing al Qaeda operations -- of which I've got to believe there are dozens at any given time -- is an essential tool I'm not willing to throw out over some moral squemishness our enemy doesn't share.

    It appears, from General Hayden's testimony before Congress, that using waterboarding on Khalid Shaihk Mohammed resulted in just such a trove of information. Good. Who knows, maybe some of those thwarted operations were ticking time bombs. He made it sound like they were.

    I have no reason to disbelieve him. And, you have no evidence to the contrary. Absence of a terrorist attack is not evidence of your position...in fact, I'd say it supports mine.

  6. #106
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    now you know how we feel.
    yet he keeps replying. weird.

  7. #107
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    yet he keeps replying. weird.
    And this changes our opinion of me how, exactly?

  8. #108
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Don't bother with this guy. He took the least relevant part of my post--the Jack Bauer "ticking bomb" scenario--and decided to go after it "because 24 is fiction." OK, I admit it, 24 is fiction. So the what? Just because something is fiction doesn't mean it's unbelievable. In fact, most good fiction needs to be believable.
    Right, except that situation has never presented itself in the real world.

    Ever.

    But none of this changes the hypothetical. If you were presented with a "ticking bomb" scenario--and the guy you had in custody knew vital information about that "ticking bomb"--wouldn't you do anything to extract that information? I sure as would. Does anyone really think a "ticking bomb" scenario is out of the realm of possibility?
    Well sure, if you knew there was a bomb "ticking" somewhere, Jack Bauer's methods become more acceptable, of course.

    But seeing as that has never happened, nor is that the context our current government performs waterboarding under, your analogy does not pertain to the current useage of "torture" this thread is dealing with.

    As a practical matter, it's probably not necessarily to codify any exception for a "ticking bomb." Hopefully the interrogator will just act on his instincts, thereby averting a catastrophe, and a grateful nation will see to it that there will be no prosecution for this heroic act of patriotism.
    In a Jack Bauer situation? I cant believe I am even having a conversation about about a fictional character, in a fictional role, doing fictional anti-terrorism interrogations.

    Seriously, there has never been a situation like that in our history. Terrorism plots are broken up in the planning stages, not the actual execution stage. So torturing someone who may or may not have the relevant information for a plot that may or may not happen in the next couple months (not 24 hours) is far different from knowing some bull like "there's a bomb in the city, and only torture will tell me where it is and when" or some other fairy tale.

    That is, in essence, the problem with your analogy. Its based on hypotheticals not actuals. Hypthetically, a 24-type situation might present itself. But seeing as that has never happened, using that extremely unlikely situation to justify the torture of someone who may or may not have info on plots that may or may not happen in months is flawed to say the very least.

  9. #109
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Right, except that situation has never presented itself in the real world.

    Ever.
    That's not entirely true.

    Well sure, if you knew there was a bomb "ticking" somewhere, Jack Bauer's methods become more acceptable, of course.
    So, you'd find torture acceptable if you believe the "ticking time bomb" scenario were plausible?

    But seeing as that has never happened, nor is that the context our current government performs waterboarding under, your analogy does not pertain to the current useage of "torture" this thread is dealing with.
    Since you you don't know what "ongoing operations" were disclosed by KSM or whether or not any of them could be characterized as ticking time bombs, you don't know if it is relevant or not.

    Now, has the "Ticking Time Bomb" scenario ever occurred in real life.

    Yes. The SMS Viribus Unitis

    In October 1918, when it was becoming clear that the Central Powers would not prevail in the war, and that their navies would become subject to confiscation by the Allies, Emperor Karl I of Austria decided to turn over Viribus Unitis to the newly created Council of Slovenes, Croats, and Serbs that would soon occupy formerly Austrian territories on the Adriatic. Italy, however, had designs on some of the Austrian territory that might be turned over to the Croats, and didn't like the idea of 3 modern dreadnoughts being in the possession of the Austrian successor state. Although the SCS declared that it was no longer at war with the Allies, this declaration was not immediately recognized on the Allied Accordingly, Italy dispatched a pair of young men named Raffaele- one a Lieutenant Paolucci, and the other a Major Rossetti- to infiltrate Pula Harbor on a modified torpedo and attach a bomb to the dreadnought's hull. This the Raffaeles succeeded in doing, but they were captured while escaping, and brought on board the Viribus Unitis.

    When the Raffaeles were brought on board, they told Admiral Vuckovich (the new commander of the dreadnought) that they had affixed a bomb to the hull and that the ship should be evacuated. This put the admiral in an awkward position. He could evacuate, but that would ensure the loss of the battleship when the mine exploded. The Viribus Unitis class was notorious for its poor underwater protection, making the threat of the bomb particularly potent. While it could be argued that the admiral should have evacuated VU anyway, thus saving the lives of his men, the ship was an extraordinarily expensive piece of state property. The men onboard the ship expected that they might have to die or kill in its defense. It was reasonable at the time to believe that the ship might be used to fight or deter the Italians. As such, evacuation doesn't present a very compelling option. Instead, the admiral decided to keep enough sailors on board to allow the best possible response to the damage that the bomb would cause. Inevitably, it risked the deaths of many sailors, but at the same time held out the best chance for saving the ship.

    But what of the Raffaeles? The Italian officers had already admitted that a bomb was attached to the hull, and that it would explode in a relatively short period of time. They begged Admiral Vuckovich to be allowed to escape, and he agreed to let them go. However, when they reached the water they were assailed by angry sailors, and then dragged back onto the ship. Fearing prosecution (and potentially execution) for what amounted to a legally questionable attack on what its owners presumed to be a neutral vessel, the Italians demanded to be treated as prisoners of war. Admiral Vuckovich made no determination at the time, but ordered the crew not to harm the Italians. Twenty-five minutes later the bomb exploded. Fifteen minutes after that Viribus Unitis rolled over and sank with 300 men, including Admiral Vuckovich but not including the Raffaeles, who were allowed by Admiral Vuckovich to escape, and who spent about a week as prisoners of war.
    35 seconds of waterboarding would have left them with 24 minutes and 25 seconds of time to disarm the bomb.

    In a Jack Bauer situation? I cant believe I am even having a conversation about about a fictional character, in a fictional role, doing fictional anti-terrorism interrogations.
    So talk about real stuff then. Ignore the analogy. Could the Captain of the Viribus Unitis have saved his ship and himself had be been willing to torture the men who planted the bomb?

    Seriously, there has never been a situation like that in our history. Terrorism plots are broken up in the planning stages, not the actual execution stage. So torturing someone who may or may not have the relevant information for a plot that may or may not happen in the next couple months (not 24 hours) is far different from knowing some bull like "there's a bomb in the city, and only torture will tell me where it is and when" or some other fairy tale.

    That is, in essence, the problem with your analogy. Its based on hypotheticals not actuals. Hypthetically, a 24-type situation might present itself. But seeing as that has never happened, using that extremely unlikely situation to justify the torture of someone who may or may not have info on plots that may or may not happen in months is flawed to say the very least.
    I've given you an actual...go for it.

  10. #110
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Here's another question for you guys:

    If a patrol is taking fire from a position in urban Baghdad and they know there are two shooters inside a building firing at them; is it torture to bust through the door and hold one of the shooters at gunpoint while demanding to know the whereabouts of the other?

    Or, should they pull up chairs, offer him a cigarette, and politely ask where the other gunman is?

    Frankly, holding a gun on someone while demanding he give up his compatriots position meets the literal definition of torture. After all, if I were him, I would deduce you intend to shoot me if I don't tell you where the other guy is.

    Happened a lot in Iraq.

    Oh yeah, that's a ticking time bomb scenario. More literally, if the missing gunman has an explosive device on him.

  11. #111
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Another ticking time bomb scenario is the German case of September 2002, involving the kidnapping and murder of 11-year-old Jakob von Metzler, and the threatening by the police of his kidnapper with torture.

    Three days after Metzler's kidnapping, police watched a man collect the ransom and arrested him.

    The suspect toyed with his interrogators about the location of the boy and the police chief allowed his officers, in a written order, to torture. After he was threatened with pain, it took only 10 minutes for the suspect to reveal the location of the boy, who was already dead.

    The phrase "Ticking Time Bomb" is merely a moniker to describe a whole set of situations in which knowledge of imminent catastrophe could be useful in averting that catastrophe. It doesn't have to be a literal bomb.

  12. #112
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    In my opinion, to deny the use of extreme interrogation techniques in such cir stances may be as cold hearted and immoral as it is to permit torture in the first place. It is cold hearted because, in true catastrophic cases, the failure to use such techniques could result in the death of innocent people. Upholding the rights of the suspect will negate the rights, including the very fundamental right to life, of innocent victims.

    To deny the use of techniques such as waterboarding, in such cases, is also hypocritical: experience tells us that when faced with serious threats to the life of the nation, government -- any government -- will take whatever measures it deems necessary to abate the crisis. An uncompromising absolute prohibition on torture sets unrealistic standards that no one can hope to meet when faced with extremely exigent cir stances.

    Such unrealistic standards would either be ineffective or be perceived as setting double standards. To quote from Michael Walzer, sticking by the absolute prohibition on torture, no matter what, reflects a "radicalism of people who do not expect to exercise power … ever, and who are not prepared to make the judgments that this exercise … require[s]."

  13. #113
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Well sure, if you knew there was a bomb "ticking" somewhere, Jack Bauer's methods become more acceptable, of course.

    This is exactly my position on the issue.

  14. #114
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    This is exactly my position on the issue.
    Then it is a fair one, in my very unimportant opinion.

    But that isnt what is being discussed when people talk about Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, to be clear.

    These people have been prisoners for months and years. They are out of the loop completely. Any info garnered from them is obsolete at best.

  15. #115
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    So talk about real stuff then. Ignore the analogy. Could the Captain of the Viribus Unitis have saved his ship and himself had be been willing to torture the men who planted the bomb?
    In that particular and very unique event, yes. But only if what you say is accurate, and I'll trust that it is.

    But see my response to Darrin. This Viribus Unitis is not Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo by any stretch. It isnt.

    That particular situation arose during a war. We are not at war. Terrorism is not war actionable unless you plan on deposing every Muslim-based government in the world. Anything short of that very objective is not war, its an excuse. Thats where you and I differ immensely.

  16. #116
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Another ticking time bomb scenario is the German case of September 2002, involving the kidnapping and murder of 11-year-old Jakob von Metzler, and the threatening by the police of his kidnapper with torture.

    Three days after Metzler's kidnapping, police watched a man collect the ransom and arrested him.

    The suspect toyed with his interrogators about the location of the boy and the police chief allowed his officers, in a written order, to torture. After he was threatened with pain, it took only 10 minutes for the suspect to reveal the location of the boy, who was already dead.

    The phrase "Ticking Time Bomb" is merely a moniker to describe a whole set of situations in which knowledge of imminent catastrophe could be useful in averting that catastrophe. It doesn't have to be a literal bomb.
    So now youre going to torture criminal suspects that are citizens of your own country?!

    Youre a goddamn monster, Yoni. You are seriously ing deranged.

  17. #117
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    So now youre going to torture criminal suspects that are citizens of your own country?!

    Youre a goddamn monster, Yoni. You are seriously ing deranged.
    I'm not German and I wasn't advocating their approach merely using it to demonstrate such cir stances exist and that extreme interrogation techniques can have results.

    Nice try though...I thought, for a minute, you were sincere.

  18. #118
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    I'm not German and I wasn't advocating their approach merely using it to demonstrate such cir stances exist and that extreme interrogation techniques can have results.

    Nice try though...I thought, for a minute, you were sincere.
    Then I apologize sincerely. Honestly.

    What I thought you were saying is exactly why this "War on Terror" scares the out of me. When your adversary has no country and is not limited to a certain region, the scope of its definition will expand to include what would be common criminals who "terrorize" their neighborhood.

    I dont like that direction, and I am sorry to have characterized you that way.

  19. #119
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Waterboarding doesn't even approach the depths to which our enemies have stooped. And, we've only engaged in that technique three times in this conflict.

    Your an idiot you actually believe our conduct has even approached that of al Qaeda's...which could only be characterized as savage on a grand scale. A bigger idiot than I ever imagined you to be.
    Remember, the important thing is not to be moral, but to be more moral than the enemies we're fighting. So if they start using mus gas, we can use something that's slightly more moral, like a choking agent.

  20. #120
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Another ticking time bomb scenario is the German case of September 2002, involving the kidnapping and murder of 11-year-old Jakob von Metzler, and the threatening by the police of his kidnapper with torture.

    Three days after Metzler's kidnapping, police watched a man collect the ransom and arrested him.

    The suspect toyed with his interrogators about the location of the boy and the police chief allowed his officers, in a written order, to torture. After he was threatened with pain, it took only 10 minutes for the suspect to reveal the location of the boy, who was already dead.

    The phrase "Ticking Time Bomb" is merely a moniker to describe a whole set of situations in which knowledge of imminent catastrophe could be useful in averting that catastrophe. It doesn't have to be a literal bomb.
    And there's NO NEED to make this 'legal'. By legalizing the law, you allow for widespread torture, and people will relax the laws placed on them. Keep it AGAINST the law, and let the courts decide. If the courts feel what the person did was justified, then they can let him off. Or , even if they find him guilty, the president can pardom him. No need to make it legal.

    Isn't the conservative mindset that power provided to those in government should be as limited as possible?

  21. #121
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Remember, the important thing is not to be moral, but to be more moral than the enemies we're fighting. So if they start using mus gas, we can use something that's slightly more moral, like a choking agent.
    The important thing is to be the last one standing. The U. S. Cons ution isn't a suicide pact.

  22. #122
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Okay, here's food for thought...

    While I think the "ticking time bomb" scenario is a legitimate reason to employ extreme measures -- including torture -- to extract information that could potentially save the lives of those in proximity to the bomb; that situation rarely presents itself. Well, that we know of. My comfort with extreme interrogation methods is more based on the fact -- yes fact -- that we have, from time to time, taken prisoners that are known to have information about the highest levels of al Qaeda planning and operations.
    And what if they have the wrong guy? Or the guy doesn't actually know anything? Then what? Too bad? Sorry we tortured you? Our bad?

  23. #123
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    And what if they have the wrong guy? Or the guy doesn't actually know anything? Then what? Too bad? Sorry we tortured you? Our bad?
    Yep. Next? Frankly, I'm not worried about the s they've been picking up off the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq.

  24. #124
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Ah, so you don't believe in the ideals of America... gotcha.

    Innocent before guilty? Throw that out the window, right?

    And heck, who cares if the person is American... terrorism is involved! They don't deserve the right to have a fair trial, or strong representation. Heck, let's not even give them the right to challenge their detention.

    I detest that view. It's simply unamerican.

  25. #125
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Ah, so you don't believe in the ideals of America... gotcha.

    Innocent before guilty? Throw that out the window, right?

    And heck, who cares if the person is American... terrorism is involved! They don't deserve the right to have a fair trial, or strong representation. Heck, let's not even give them the right to challenge their detention.

    I detest that view. It's simply unamerican.
    Okay. We've done any of that to what American?

    We've waterboarded three al Qaedans. Three. What's your point?

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