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  1. #1
    Veteran kace's Avatar
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    Answering another thread that i found it weird that Tony was shooting so few FT considering his game, i checked the stat of FTA for the whole team.

    i already knew that we weren't shooting enough FT but i didn't realize we were last in that category.

    What do you think about that ?? Of course, the numbers of 3 we have is a big reason but with Tim and Tony as best scorers, which means playing a lot inside near the rim (at the post or driving to the rim), shouldn't we have more FTA ?

    so what ? Refs biased ? not enough aggressivity or smartness to draw the foul ? or only too much 3's ?

    here some stats from 82games to help:

    - % of foul for the team (spurs last): http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM18.HTM
    - number of and 1 (spurs 29th): http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM17.HTM
    - number of dunks (spurs last, by far, ouch !!): http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM16.HTM
    - % of team shots from inside (spurs 29 th): http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM11.HTM
    - % of team shots from the 3 (spurs 4th but not far from the teams behind): http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM1.HTM

    so, we are by far last or almost last in the four first categories and 4th, but not really far before others teams in % of 3's.

    Thoughts ?

  2. #2
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's been an issue in recent years and I think it's going to continue to be an issue for the rest of the season with the current personnel. With Finley and Bonner in the starting lineup, that obviously doesn't help. Those two are two of the worst players in the NBA in terms of getting to the line.

    As a team, the only players who get to the line with any regularity are Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Hill. Duncan still leads the team in free throws attempted per minute but he has seen about 10% fewer free throws since the Joey Crawford incident (make of that what you will -- coincidence could very well be the answer). Hill is actually currently second on the team at getting to the line, so playing him more could help.

    Parker is right in line with his usual number, however Ginobili is down about 33%. Hopefully once Ginobili is healthy, he'll attack the rim more and start living at the line again.

    Overall, the way this roster is put together, these Spurs simply won't get to the line much. The good news is that they should improve as Ginobili gets healthier and Hill gets more comfortable. It's risky business but I don't see anyway around the 2008-09 living and dying by the three-pointer more than any Spurs team in history.

  3. #3
    One more time... xtremesteven33's Avatar
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  4. #4
    Scarlett our Goddess4ever
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    I have different ideas on this issue. ourselves is not the reason for the lack of ft attempts, it's the refs. the owner of the spurs is the poorest among all the 30 owners, he may be even poorer than some players and managers. As our economy is in ressesion the incomes of the refs is considerably abbreviated, but they are used to their luxury lives. then they have to find a new source to get some money to feed their families. Then there is not need to say more.

    The league is not as clean as it appears, RefD is not the only one fraud but he was unfortunately chosen as a scapegoat.

  5. #5
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    not sure why tp does not shoot more three throws he attacks the basketball
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  6. #6
    Believe. barbacoataco's Avatar
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    I could rush in and accuse the refs or bias, but I think for the most part it is our roster and having players like Bonner, Finley, Bowen, Mason and thomas who don't get to the line. However I do think parker should be going to the line more. He attacks the basket constantly and he usually gets hit, but doesn't get the automatic "Dwayne Wade" FT.

  7. #7
    Not economically viable D-Fens's Avatar
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    not sure why tp does not shoot more three throws he attacks the basketball
    Say what??

  8. #8
    NBA fan since 1967 Lakers_55's Avatar
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    playing devil's advocate without doing any research, I seem to notice also the Spurs commit few fouls. Seriously, how many times has TD fouled out, or been forced to sit awhile for picking up early fouls?
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  9. #9
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    2 dunks by spurs

  10. #10
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    The lack of fast break points or easy points off transition turnovers and long rebounds is also a problem. Living by the 3 point shot is a tough way to win in the playoffs.

  11. #11
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    Nobody fouls when your shooting from half court.
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  12. #12
    Sect 121 Row 34 Seat 13
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    The Spurs are also last in the league in sending teams to the line, oddly enough with the same number of attempts, 20/pg.

  13. #13
    Believe.
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    I really think that the Spurs should stop relying too much on the 3pt shots instead drive to the hole a bit more. We've been living and dying by the 3 and it has got to at least lessen a bit.
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  14. #14
    Take It Strong TwoHandJam's Avatar
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    The lack of fast break points or easy points off transition turnovers and long rebounds is also a problem. Living by the 3 point shot is a tough way to win in the playoffs.
    Agreed. Pop must know this is a problem yet he does little to correct it. The Hornets game was a classic example of what can happen when a jumpshooting offense dries up at the wrong time.

    Manu is our best slasher and is very adept at getting to the line but he is still not himself and every day that passes leaves me a bit more concerned. Living and dying by the 3 point shot and jumpshooting in general is a prescription for disaster in the playoffs. The defense tightens up and those open looks are just no longer there. Getting to the line is critical in gutting out close games, especially on the road.

    If I remember correctly, we even had a large number of uncontested shots that we just missed in that Hornets game. Shooting can be very fickle and when it abandons you, you must be able to get to the line. This year I find Pop is just a little too content to continue advocating the drive-and-kick instead of the drive-to-the-hole when we really need scoring.

  15. #15
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Duncan still leads the team in free throws attempted per minute but he has seen about 10% fewer free throws since the Joey Crawford incident (make of that what you will -- coincidence could very well be the answer). Hill is actually currently second on the team at getting to the line, so playing him more could help.

    FTA and FTA/40 has been sort of a pet stat of mine for years. I've said for a long time that nothing would benefit the Spurs and Tim Duncan more than having another big who could get to the line with some regularity. It would improve their record, but it would also extend Duncan's career.

    Duncan's reduced FTA's have more to do with what happens to him before he gets the ball. When the other teams figured out that they couldn't defend Duncan any other way, they started focusing much more on "denying him the ball". You can translate that to mean "beat the living shit out of him off the ball". I kinow that there is always a lot of banging in the low blocks, but no player in the league takes the kind of abuse that Duncan does off the ball, or as far away from the basket. I guess it's a great strategy, as long as you can get by with it. If Duncan did the same thing on the defensive end, he would foul out in the first half of every game.

    After the Joey Crawford incident, it just got worse. There was so much talk about the Spurs being the worst floppers/whiners in the league after that. And Stu Jackson specifically singled them out when describing the league's "direction" on how certain calls and no-calls should be handled. The biggest equalizer the league has seen in the last 5-6 years has been allowing teams to manhandle Duncan with impunity, as long as he isn't actually taking the ball to the hole.

    That's why I've thought that Camby would be such a good fit next to Duncan. Not just his defense, or rebounding, but because he gets to the line. It's not just the extra 3 FTA's per game that would make the difference. If the Spurs had another big that the other teams had to respect enough to give up some fouls, it would force them to give Duncan a little more space. (Or let the other big go wild.) Hitting 3-pointers stretches a defense, but it doesn't force the opposing big to lay off Duncan. Since DRob retired, we haven't had a big that could get to the line, except by accident.

  16. #16
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Only stat that matters 20 and 10 (despite key injuries to two of their three best players) and leading their division.

  17. #17
    Copacetic m33p0's Avatar
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    FTA and FTA/40 has been sort of a pet stat of mine for years. I've said for a long time that nothing would benefit the Spurs and Tim Duncan more than having another big who could get to the line with some regularity. It would improve their record, but it would also extend Duncan's career.

    Duncan's reduced FTA's have more to do with what happens to him before he gets the ball. When the other teams figured out that they couldn't defend Duncan any other way, they started focusing much more on "denying him the ball". You can translate that to mean "beat the living shit out of him off the ball". I kinow that there is always a lot of banging in the low blocks, but no player in the league takes the kind of abuse that Duncan does off the ball, or as far away from the basket. I guess it's a great strategy, as long as you can get by with it. If Duncan did the same thing on the defensive end, he would foul out in the first half of every game.

    After the Joey Crawford incident, it just got worse. There was so much talk about the Spurs being the worst floppers/whiners in the league after that. And Stu Jackson specifically singled them out when describing the league's "direction" on how certain calls and no-calls should be handled. The biggest equalizer the league has seen in the last 5-6 years has been allowing teams to manhandle Duncan with impunity, as long as he isn't actually taking the ball to the hole.

    That's why I've thought that Camby would be such a good fit next to Duncan. Not just his defense, or rebounding, but because he gets to the line. It's not just the extra 3 FTA's per game that would make the difference. If the Spurs had another big that the other teams had to respect enough to give up some fouls, it would force them to give Duncan a little more space. (Or let the other big go wild.) Hitting 3-pointers stretches a defense, but it doesn't force the opposing big to lay off Duncan. Since DRob retired, we haven't had a big that could get to the line, except by accident.
    i like your take.

  18. #18
    Pop took his brain back. xellos88330's Avatar
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    At least the Spurs are winning without needing FT. I think that it is best that they don't get to the line very often. It makes the team value every possession and will force them to play very efficient basketball. If they start getting to the line again after playing with low FTA, it could very well spell doom for other teams.
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  19. #19
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's been an issue in recent years and I think it's going to continue to be an issue for the rest of the season with the current personnel. With Finley and Bonner in the starting lineup, that obviously doesn't help. Those two are two of the worst players in the NBA in terms of getting to the line.

    As a team, the only players who get to the line with any regularity are Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Hill. Duncan still leads the team in free throws attempted per minute but he has seen about 10% fewer free throws since the Joey Crawford incident (make of that what you will -- coincidence could very well be the answer). Hill is actually currently second on the team at getting to the line, so playing him more could help.

    Parker is right in line with his usual number, however Ginobili is down about 33%. Hopefully once Ginobili is healthy, he'll attack the rim more and start living at the line again.

    Overall, the way this roster is put together, these Spurs simply won't get to the line much. The good news is that they should improve as Ginobili gets healthier and Hill gets more comfortable. It's risky business but I don't see anyway around the 2008-09 living and dying by the three-pointer more than any Spurs team in history.
    You know, I appreciate your level-headed takes on this, and I likewise enjoy the fact that you are one of the last people, if not THE last, to call out officiating biases in basketball, if for no other reason than you don't want to shift this site that direction. And everything you say makes a kind of sense.

    However... the one monkey wrench in this whole scenario is Tony Parker.

    The dude gets hammered more than almost any PG in the league. He should be at the line 8-10 times per game minimum with the amount of contact he draws. Timmy? Ok, sure. I can understand the refs "letting the bigs play", even though the Suns game was a classic example of Duncan getting chopped with no call and then getting whistled for laying his hand on Shaq's forearm. But still, for the benefit of the doubt, I could honestly let that go. If it weren't for Tony.

    The simple fact is that the refs routinely watch Spurs players get absolutely manhandled under or near the hoop and they swallow their whistles. And yes, this COULD happen with a number of other teams, and I'm just not seeing it or I don't watch them enough. But being from the Chicago area (also a Bulls fan), I see enough Bulls games to know they don't draw half the contact the Spurs do with drives and power moves to the hoop.

    And we're dead last in FT. That seems a bit messed up for a team with the 2nd best PG (and the best PG at getting penetration deep into the paint) AND the best, most consistent, most dominant big man in the game. It's just WAY too fishy. Too convenient for the team that never makes any national noise until the last 2 weeks of the season to be last in FTs. I hate to suggest a conspiracy, no really, I would hate that, but SOMETHING is going on with this league's officials. That Suns game was a TRAVESTY to what an unbiased officiating staff should be.

  20. #20
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's been an issue in recent years and I think it's going to continue to be an issue for the rest of the season with the current personnel. With Finley and Bonner in the starting lineup, that obviously doesn't help. Those two are two of the worst players in the NBA in terms of getting to the line.

    As a team, the only players who get to the line with any regularity are Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Hill. Duncan still leads the team in free throws attempted per minute but he has seen about 10% fewer free throws since the Joey Crawford incident (make of that what you will -- coincidence could very well be the answer). Hill is actually currently second on the team at getting to the line, so playing him more could help.

    Parker is right in line with his usual number, however Ginobili is down about 33%. Hopefully once Ginobili is healthy, he'll attack the rim more and start living at the line again.

    Overall, the way this roster is put together, these Spurs simply won't get to the line much. The good news is that they should improve as Ginobili gets healthier and Hill gets more comfortable. It's risky business but I don't see anyway around the 2008-09 living and dying by the three-pointer more than any Spurs team in history.
    Once you said that FT are the most overrated statistics (or something like that)
    That it has not much to do with winning.

    Now it appears that FT matter more then I thought you thought it was
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  21. #21
    Believe.
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    i think the spurs are near last in a lot of easy points category. free throw attempts, points in the paint, fast break points, and second opportunity points. hard to imagine the spurs are doing so poorly in points in the paint when they have duncan, parker, and ginobili. i blame the lack of spurs athleticism. without it, it is pretty hard to attack the basket and score in transition.

  22. #22
    DEEP in the Q
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    Vaughn, Udooka + pick for Wade. That will solve your problems.

  23. #23
    GFY I. Hustle's Avatar
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    I agree


    It's the numbers of three we have. A lot of three throws but not enough from TP
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  24. #24
    Make a trade steal
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    Only stat that matters 20 and 10 (despite key injuries to two of their three best players) and leading their division.
    No, a more telling stat is how they do against the better teams in the league. The Spurs have had a very weak schedule so far and have won many of those games by less then 3 or 4 points. As long as they had Duncan healthy they were good enough to beat most of the teams so far on their schedule.

    Until I see them beating the better teams in the league they don't stand a chance to win a title. Wins against Memphis, OK City and Minnesota that pad their early won/loss record is not an indicator of how good they need to be.

  25. #25
    lol banned DUNCANownsKOBE2's Avatar
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    Only stat that matters 20 and 10 (despite key injuries to two of their three best players) and leading their division.

    They have had a weak schedule and it is more complicated than record IMO, they don't look like a championship contender right now.

    I know they beat the Suns, but the Suns looked like the better team but just like all mediocre teams the Suns find ways to lose games against better teams. The Spurs won because Phoenix turned it over 14 times, which is a bad sign for both teams. It's a bad sign for the Spurs because they are last in the NBA in forced turnovers, meaning it's a matter of luck if the team they're playing turns it over 14 times because it in all likelihood wasn't due to their defense.

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