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  1. #31
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    China is already home to 16 of the planet's 20 most heavily polluted cities -- a noxious byproduct of its double-digit economic growth.

    Seven of 10 homes still burn coal and wood for heat, and half of Chinese men smoke -- a toxic combination of indoor pollution that raises dire questions about the fate of this industrial giant's long-term public health.
    Over the next quarter-century, 83 million Chinese -- a number equaling nearly a third of the total U.S. population -- will die from lung cancer and respiratory ailments without the reduction of cigarette smoking and indoor fuel-burning, a new study by Harvard's School of Public Health warns.

    "In many places in rural China, the roads are good, people now have cellphones and electricity, but residents are still cooking and heating with the same fuel they have used for centuries," said Majid Ezzati, an associate professor of international health and senior author of the study. "And as a result, people are dying."

    In an article published this month in the Lancet medical journal, the Harvard team also concludes that programs to reduce smoking and household use of coal and biomass fuels such as wood for cooking and heating could significantly reduce the deaths.

    The question, researchers say, is whether the Chinese government has the political willpower to enact sound public health policy.

    "This analysis shows that smoking and fuel use, which affects hundreds of millions of people in China, will be a defining feature of future health in that country," said Hsien-Ho Lin, a graduate student in the department of epidemiology at Harvard's School of Public Health and the lead author of the study.

    Ezzati said he was working a few years ago in central China when his team noticed the high number of deaths, which residents did not seem to attribute to their household habits.

    "People may know when they are in the house and it's very smoky . . . that it's making them cough -- their chest may hurt and their eyes burn. They talk about symptoms and discomfort," he said.

    "They know there is something that's not good from their living conditions. But neither in China nor in other parts of the world do these people say: 'This is making me die early.' "
    _____________________________
    Originally Posted by Wild Cobra:
    "it is possible that warming for windmills vs. CO2 is about equal, and that the windmills will change the wind/climate in ways worse than CO2 ever could."

    post6568713

  2. #32
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Strangely enough, we have to go begging China for more money and we give tons of money to Africa.

  3. #33
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    RandomGuy,

    We get it -- China is very polluted -- so is India. So what?

  4. #34
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    RandomGuy,

    We get it -- China is very polluted -- so is India. So what?
    I know this is hard for your anti-environementalist mind to get around, but pollution destroys ecnomic growth.

    Environmatal laws are good for the economy.

    No environmental laws = unhealthy population.

    Unhealthy population = unproductive population.

  5. #35
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I know this is hard for your anti-environementalist mind to get around, but pollution destroys ecnomic growth.

    Environmatal laws are good for the economy.

    No environmental laws = unhealthy population.

    Unhealthy population = unproductive population.


    We are a lot healthier than the WWII generation, but I'd argue that we are not as productive (ahem -- Spurstalk).


    EDIT> For the record, I'm not anti-environmental -- just pro-human.

  6. #36
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The only thing that may doom China's economy is enacting climate change laws


    ... and that is why you fail, padawan.

  7. #37
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    And yet, for some strange reason, China and India both said no to limiting CO2 emmissions. I wonder why? If, as you say, it would be so great for their economies.

  8. #38
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    We are a lot healthier than the WWII generation, but I'd argue that we are not as productive (ahem -- Spurstalk).


    EDIT> For the record, I'm not anti-environmental -- just pro-human.
    A lot of people who style themselves conservatives like to believe this about themselves.

    Environemental laws and their enforcement are generally good for the economy, and produce a more efficient allocation of capital.

  9. #39
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    A lot of people who style themselves conservatives like to believe this about themselves.

    Environemental laws and their enforcement are generally good for the economy, and produce a more efficient allocation of capital.
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah ahalololololololololololololololololololololololol olololololololololololololololol!
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    I mean I guess I can't blame you two for being so angry for such a long time-- everyone has a breaking point -- but do you really think these juvenile fantasy attacks really achieve anything?
    ^^^^^ Cumdumpster

  10. #40
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    A lot of people who style themselves conservatives like to believe this about themselves.

    Environemental laws and their enforcement are generally good for the economy, and produce a more efficient allocation of capital.

    What is your basis for saying this?

  11. #41
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    And yet, for some strange reason, China and India both said no to limiting CO2 emmissions. I wonder why? If, as you say, it would be so great for their economies.
    More feel-good conservativism in a lame attempt to poke a whole in an economic argument.

    Countries do things all the time that aren't in their collective best interests.

    Pollution control is good for the economy. You claim not to be "anti-environmentalist" but you can't seem to grasp this basic concept.

    Your knee-jerk reactions belie your claims that you aren't anti-environmentalist.

  12. #42
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah ahalololololololololololololololololololololololol olololololololololololololololol!
    :wgaf:

  13. #43
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    What is your basis for saying this?
    I've gone through this explanation many times on this message board.

    Stretch yourself, abandon your preconceived notions, and YOU try to make the case, just as a devil's advocate thing. It is quite possible.

  14. #44
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    I've gone through this explanation many times on this message board.

    Stretch yourself, abandon your preconceived notions, and YOU try to make the case, just as a devil's advocate thing. It is quite possible.
    Conservatives know everything haven't you heard?
    _____________________________
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    You are the best. Thank you for taking good care of me. Thank you for buying all of my toys. Thank you for taking me to ausome places. I love you very much. And Happy Valentine's Day."

  15. #45
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Conservatives know everything haven't you heard?

    I didn't "go out on a limb" and make all kinds of crazy prediction.


    One thing I am pretty sure of: Obamacare and tax-n-trade won't be signed into law and that will be a huge victory for the American people.

  16. #46
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    I've gone through this explanation many times on this message board.

    Stretch yourself, abandon your preconceived notions, and YOU try to make the case, just as a devil's advocate thing. It is quite possible.
    Maybe you can convince us with a "Modern World" comic strip.

  17. #47
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Maybe you can convince us with a "Modern World" comic strip.
    Maybe you can prove I'm wrong with smiley and an "lol".


  18. #48
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I didn't "go out on a limb" and make all kinds of crazy prediction.


    One thing I am pretty sure of: Obamacare and tax-n-trade won't be signed into law and that will be a huge victory for the American people.
    You didn't even try.

    Name one way in which a pollution control law might benefit the economy.

    Just one.

  19. #49
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    Cap n trade is such a good buisiness idea, every buisiness decided to implement it on it's own.

  20. #50
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    You didn't even try.

    Name one way in which a pollution control law might benefit the economy.

    Just one.
    on a local level, aesthetically heavy industry can drive away prospective yuppies in a town. THere are many other's but in general more green regulation hurts rather than helps buisiness.

  21. #51
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    on a local level, aesthetically heavy industry can drive away prospective yuppies in a town. THere are many other's but in general more green regulation hurts rather than helps buisiness.
    Tell you what.

    I'll drill a water well slanted down at an angle, and aim for directly underneath any refinery in the US.

    You and your family can then drink all the unfiltered water from that water table for 20 years.

    Then tell me how economically productive you collectively were as a unit at the end of that 20 years.

  22. #52
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    on a local level, aesthetically heavy industry can drive away prospective yuppies in a town. THere are many other's but in general more green regulation hurts rather than helps buisiness.
    Because as we all know, a leather tanning factory with a revenue of $2,000,000 per year dumping unrestrictedly into a large river, won't kill off a $2,000,000,000 fishing and tourism industry, and cause every water utility on that river to have to pay a few hundred million dollars a year in extra treament to provide drinkable water.

    I mean that would just be economic suicide to force that tanning factory to actually clean up its emissions.

  23. #53
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    Tell you what.

    I'll drill a water well slanted down at an angle, and aim for directly underneath any refinery in the US.

    You and your family can then drink all the unfiltered water from that water table for 20 years.

    Then tell me how economically productive you collectively were as a unit at the end of that 20 years.
    Oh shit!

    That scenario is the be all end all! I'm totally convinced all those buisinesses not going green earlier were all dittoheads, it's such a homerun idea!

    doof.

  24. #54
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Because allowing rivers to become so polluted that they catch on fire is great for the economy.

  25. #55
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    Because as we all know, a leather tanning factory with a revenue of $2,000,000 per year dumping unrestrictedly into a large river, won't kill off a $2,000,000,000 fishing and tourism industry, and cause every water utility on that river to have to pay a few hundred million dollars a year in extra treament to provide drinkable water.

    I mean that would just be economic suicide to force that tanning factory to actually clean up its emissions.
    So what does that have to do with Carbon emmisions?

  26. #56
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    Because allowing rivers to become so polluted that they catch on fire is great for the economy.
    because killing baby seals is good for teen abstinence.

  27. #57
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Stringent environmental regulation has done wonders for California's economy.

  28. #58
    Look ma! I'm on Mars! RandomGuy's Avatar
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    So what does that have to do with Carbon emmisions?
    Emissions in this case would be the emissions of toxic materials into the river that kill fish, and caused the clean up expense.

    While the word "emission" generally used in english, means gaseous emissions, it also encompasses any type of physical expulsion of matter, such as liquid being dumped into a river.

  29. #59
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Emissions in this case would be the emissions of toxic materials into the river that kill fish, and caused the clean up expense.

    Do try to keep up.


    I'm for limiting this kind of pollution.


    What I'm against is taxing a trace gas that is necessary for all life on the Earth.

  30. #60
    Blessed 2centsworth's Avatar
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    two things I'm reminded of when I read this thread.

    1. The political forum is a huge waste of time

    2. 2cents is the greatest financial mind ever to grace spurstalk


    I'll check back in and try to help you poor souls in a couple of months.

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