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  1. #2151
    Five. DesignatedT's Avatar
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    League sources said last week the Raptors were told the Carlos Boozer and Nate Robinson deal for Andrea Bargnani and John Lucas III was available whenever they wanted it.

  2. #2152
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    ^What the are the Raptors waiting for, then? That's about the best deal I can imagine them making at this juncture. The only reason why they'd hold off is if they intend to amnesty Bargnani.

  3. #2153
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    So if Marion > Jack, then why does it matter if they face Jack in the playoffs?
    The other angle to consider in a Marion/Jack trade is the effect that it would have on the summer of 2013. If Dallas can offload Marion for expiring contracts, then they're in position to sign two max free agents in the summer. Imagine a frustrated Cuban with a bunch of extra cap space and no premier FAs left on the market. Screwing the Spurs by overpaying Splitter seems like something Cuban would do.

  4. #2154
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    The other angle to consider in a Marion/Jack trade is the effect that it would have on the summer of 2013. If Dallas can offload Marion for expiring contracts, then they're in position to sign two max free agents in the summer. Imagine a frustrated Cuban with a bunch of extra cap space and no premier FAs left on the market. Screwing the Spurs by overpaying Splitter seems like something Cuban would do.
    That's true, as well as the fact that the Spurs' cap space will pretty much be gone if they trade for him.

    I don't think Cuban will spend max money on Splitter. He's willing to buy a superstar, but I think he's learned his lesson on massively overpaying player. He may want to spite the Spurs, but Dallas should be in a good draft position after this season. He could just as easily decide to rebuild. (He said in an interview last year that having a consistent .500 team was out of the question.)

    I also think it's possible that Splitter gets re-signed before that the Howard/Smith market shakes out. If San Antonio offers a McGee-type of deal in July, that probably keeps Splitter from even shopping around.

  5. #2155
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    That's true, as well as the fact that the Spurs' cap space will pretty much be gone if they trade for him.

    I don't think Cuban will spend max money on Splitter. He's willing to buy a superstar, but I think he's learned his lesson on massively overpaying player. He may want to spite the Spurs, but Dallas should be in a good draft position after this season. He could just as easily decide to rebuild. (He said in an interview last year that having a consistent .500 team was out of the question.)

    I also think it's possible that Splitter gets re-signed before that the Howard/Smith market shakes out. If San Antonio offers a McGee-type of deal in July, that probably keeps Splitter from even shopping around.
    I agree that Splitter stays here, but improving Dallas' cap situation has to be a consideration in a possible Marion/Jack trade. Not the biggest factor, but it's there.

  6. #2156
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I agree that Splitter stays here, but improving Dallas' cap situation has to be a consideration in a possible Marion/Jack trade. Not the biggest factor, but it's there.
    Even if that's the case, if the Spurs were to think that Marion was some kind of "missing piece," then it may be worth risking Splitter signing with the Mavericks.

  7. #2157
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    Even if that's the case, if the Spurs were to think that Marion was some kind of "missing piece," then it may be worth risking Splitter signing with the Mavericks.
    I agree. If they believe that Marion is a difference maker, then that trumps any other considerations.

    For the record, I'd trade Jack for Marion. His defense on Durant and LeBron in 2011 sold me.

  8. #2158
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I agree. If they believe that Marion is a difference maker, then that trumps any other considerations.

    For the record, I'd trade Jack for Marion. His defense on Durant and LeBron in 2011 sold me.
    Exactly what came to my mind. I'd be willing to give up a lot of non-essential assets for him. He really could be the play the Spurs need. He, Leonard, Green and Manu would be an awesome wing rotation. The only thing I could see making them better would be a savvy veteran point-guard to back up Parker.

  9. #2159
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    ^ interesting discussion. Marion's D is appealing. It'd be nice to get something else back too for the additional year of Marion's deal and nearly 2M in additional relief Dallas would net in the deal. Not sure what though.

    Does Marion have the ability to veto a trade? Or what was the basis of his threat to sit out if traded to a dud? If he can't veto a trade, I actually don't mind the idea of carrying an nicely sized expiring deal for next year. Good trade bait.

  10. #2160
    Believe. Andthentherewas21's Avatar
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    ^ interesting discussion. Marion's D is appealing. It'd be nice to get something else back too for the additional year of Marion's deal and nearly 2M in additional relief Dallas would net in the deal. Not sure what though.

    Does Marion have the ability to veto a trade? Or what was the basis of his threat to sit out if traded to a dud? If he can't veto a trade, I actually don't mind the idea of carrying an nicely sized expiring deal for next year. Good trade bait.
    I'm not sure exactly what his situation would be as far as his actual ability to block the trade. I know both Diaw and Mills can veto trades since they are on 2 year bird rights contracts (can't remember if Marion re-upped this past year and too lazy to look at the moment). But he has publicly stated he won't report to a losing team, not that the Spurs need to worry about that, but it does show that he is willing to pull a fisher if he doesn't like where he is being traded.

    I think Dallas could bite if it was a strict salary dump from their perspective, but remember that jax is technically injured (broken pinky if memory serves me right), and while he is obviously still out there playing, most teams are going to use that to try and get more from the spurs or drive down his value. Could also explain his diminished performance this season.

  11. #2161
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I'm not sure exactly what his situation would be as far as his actual ability to block the trade. I know both Diaw and Mills can veto trades since they are on 2 year bird rights contracts (can't remember if Marion re-upped this past year and too lazy to look at the moment). But he has publicly stated he won't report to a losing team, not that the Spurs need to worry about that, but it does show that he is willing to pull a fisher if he doesn't like where he is being traded.

    I think Dallas could bite if it was a strict salary dump from their perspective, but remember that jax is technically injured (broken pinky if memory serves me right), and while he is obviously still out there playing, most teams are going to use that to try and get more from the spurs or drive down his value. Could also explain his diminished performance this season.
    http://data.shamsports.com/content/p.../mavericks.jsp

    According to Sham, Marion is still in a five-year deal, so he does NOT have veto power (and because his contract is not expiring, he wouldn't have veto power under anyway). I don't think he'd use it even if he did. He'd probably prefer the Spurs to the Mavericks.

    Jack being injured isn't that big of a deal. What will drive up the price more than that would be the idea of trading with a division rival. Cuban probably would be against it unless there were a lot of sweeteners.

    In general, Jack's contract is the valuable part. No one is going to trade for him for his playing ability.

  12. #2162
    Veteran Richie's Avatar
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    Why would the Mavericks want to dump Marions contract? They have plenty of cap space this summer for free agents and if they do get someone like Howard, he would be a big piece for them to make a run at a le again.

  13. #2163
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    Howard is fools gold if he can't win games with Kobe he ain't going to win any where else. He is all hype at this point with his back problems and now shoulder problems he will decline very fast. He can still rebound but are you going to pay someone 100 million to do that?

  14. #2164
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    Why would the Mavericks want to dump Marions contract? They have plenty of cap space this summer for free agents and if they do get someone like Howard, he would be a big piece for them to make a run at a le again.
    If they dump Marion, they'll approach the amount of room needed to sign two max free agents.

  15. #2165
    Veteran Richie's Avatar
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    If Mavs are open to moving Marion, I hope we get involved with both them and the Hawks

    Smith to Mavs
    Marion to Spurs
    Danny Green, Bonner, OJ Mayo, Spurs 1st, Mavs 2nd to Hawks

    Off season we re sign Splitter, Manu, Jack and have the MLE for a big man, perhaps Brand or Kaman. A wing rotation of Kawhi/Manu/Jackson/Marion is elite defensively, and even playing 'small ball' we won't sacrifice a lot of rebounding with Marion and Kawhi both on the floor.

    Mavs can re sign Smith and a max free agent, we get better, Hawks get some good young talent and a couple picks.

  16. #2166
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    If Mavs are open to moving Marion, I hope we get involved with both them and the Hawks

    Smith to Mavs
    Marion to Spurs
    Danny Green, Bonner, OJ Mayo, Spurs 1st, Mavs 2nd to Hawks

    Off season we re sign Splitter, Manu, Jack and have the MLE for a big man, perhaps Brand or Kaman. A wing rotation of Kawhi/Manu/Jackson/Marion is elite defensively, and even playing 'small ball' we won't sacrifice a lot of rebounding with Marion and Kawhi both on the floor.

    Mavs can re sign Smith and a max free agent, we get better, Hawks get some good young talent and a couple picks.
    It's not a bad trade, but Atlanta will not take both Mayo and Green. I also think Josh Smith will end up at the Mavs one way or another. Bonner, I don't think will be traded before draft night.

  17. #2167
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    If Mavs are open to moving Marion, I hope we get involved with both them and the Hawks

    Smith to Mavs
    Marion to Spurs
    Danny Green, Bonner, OJ Mayo, Spurs 1st, Mavs 2nd to Hawks

    Off season we re sign Splitter, Manu, Jack and have the MLE for a big man, perhaps Brand or Kaman. A wing rotation of Kawhi/Manu/Jackson/Marion is elite defensively, and even playing 'small ball' we won't sacrifice a lot of rebounding with Marion and Kawhi both on the floor.

    Mavs can re sign Smith and a max free agent, we get better, Hawks get some good young talent and a couple picks.
    I'd never do that trade if I'm the Spurs. If I'm giving up the most assets, I expect to get the best player. No way do I trade Green, Bonner's semi-expiring and a first just so the Mavericks can land one of their "superstars." Also, it's absolutely pointless to have Leonard, Jack and Marion. One of them will have to play the two far more than they should. I don't think the Spurs get stronger with this trade.

  18. #2168
    Veteran Richie's Avatar
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    I'd never do that trade if I'm the Spurs. If I'm giving up the most assets, I expect to get the best player. No way do I trade Green, Bonner's semi-expiring and a first just so the Mavericks can land one of their "superstars." Also, it's absolutely pointless to have Leonard, Jack and Marion. One of them will have to play the two far more than they should. I don't think the Spurs get stronger with this trade.
    All 3 can play and defend the 2 at least as well as Green, the Spurs get better and more versatile as Marion can guard any number of positions.

    Green is the only asset with value we're giving up. Bonner isn't in the rotation and is filler for salary, and a #30 is pretty much a crapshoot. Whoever we pick, them almost certainly won't be in the rotation before Duncan retires.

  19. #2169
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    All 3 can play and defend the 2 at least as well as Green, the Spurs get better and more versatile as Marion can guard any number of positions.

    Green is the only asset with value we're giving up. Bonner isn't in the rotation and is filler for salary, and a #30 is pretty much a crapshoot. Whoever we pick, them almost certainly won't be in the rotation before Duncan retires.
    Jack and Marion are not great at guarding fast wings, and are surely not great at guarding points. We shouldn't think that just because Jack did a good job on Harden once. In reality, Jack and Marion are combo-forwards now. Leonard is a combo-forward as well, but I would agree that he has the ability to defend most twos. The Spurs would feel the loss of Green more than the loss of Jack (provided he was replaced with Marion), for sure. If you think there's a way to move Jack for another two-guard, then that's a different story.

    Yes, Bonner's deal is an asset, just like Jack's deal is an asset. I for one hope that the Spurs will find a good deal for the contract during the draft. And late firsts are only really a crapshoot if you have a bad scouting staff. For the Spurs, they always seem to find talent late in the first. Parker, Udrih, Mahinmi, Splitter, Hill (now Leonard) and Joseph are all of the bottom-five first-round selections of the Spurs over the last dozen or so years. They are all productive players. That's not counting Salmons and Barbosa, because I don;t know if the Spurs would have picked them for themselves.

    So in my mind, giving up Green and what could easily become a player like Derrick Williams (Bonner and the first will probably be enough for him if he's still on the Wolves) is a lot to give up for a redundant player. I love the idea of trading for Marion, but under no cir stances would I want Jack to not be part of the out-going package.

  20. #2170
    Veteran Richie's Avatar
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    Jack and Marion are not great at guarding fast wings, and are surely not great at guarding points. We shouldn't think that just because Jack did a good job on Harden once. In reality, Jack and Marion are combo-forwards now. Leonard is a combo-forward as well, but I would agree that he has the ability to defend most twos. The Spurs would feel the loss of Green more than the loss of Jack (provided he was replaced with Marion), for sure. If you think there's a way to move Jack for another two-guard, then that's a different story.

    Yes, Bonner's deal is an asset, just like Jack's deal is an asset. I for one hope that the Spurs will find a good deal for the contract during the draft. And late firsts are only really a crapshoot if you have a bad scouting staff. For the Spurs, they always seem to find talent late in the first. Parker, Udrih, Mahinmi, Splitter, Hill (now Leonard) and Joseph are all of the bottom-five first-round selections of the Spurs over the last dozen or so years. They are all productive players. That's not counting Salmons and Barbosa, because I don;t know if the Spurs would have picked them for themselves.

    So in my mind, giving up Green and what could easily become a player like Derrick Williams (Bonner and the first will probably be enough for him if he's still on the Wolves) is a lot to give up for a redundant player. I love the idea of trading for Marion, but under no cir stances would I want Jack to not be part of the out-going package.
    Bonner and a 1st is not enough for Williams. Please get out of dream land, they aren't going to trade a their #2 pick just two years later for basically nothing. If they were willing to trade him, they could get much more for him.

    As for your points, I'm not saying Jackson and Marion could guard point guards, and they don't have to. This trade would have no effect on our point guard rotation. Marion can defend 2 guards in the league, but if this trade happened then Kawhi would play some at the 2. Of course, remember we have a guy named Manu to play significant minutes when it counts in the playoffs, so Kawhi would only need to play a handful of minutes at the 2. We also have Neal who can play there if we need.

    I agree it would be better to trade Jackson straight up for Marion, but in terms of my trade with the Hawks and Mavs, Atlanta would have no interest in him.

    The beauty of a trade that gives us Jackson, Kawhi AND Marion is that it gives us 3 guys who can defend (as best they can) the two best players in the league, Durant and Lebron. Green can't guard either of them, which makes him less valuable.

    As for your comment about the late pick, I have two comment. First, none of them were #30. A few picks earlier can make all the difference. Second, Parker was the only one who played a significant role as a rookie, and he was pretty much a total fluke. Splitter and Mahinmi didn't come to the NBA for years after they were drafted, Joseph has barely played in two years, and Hill and Beno averaged 16 and 14 minutes their rookie seasons. We have 2 seasons to win a le, and a #30 pick won't help in those two years.

  21. #2171
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Bonner and a 1st is not enough for Williams. Please get out of dream land, they aren't going to trade a their #2 pick just two years later for basically nothing. If they were willing to trade him, they could get much more for him.

    As for your points, I'm not saying Jackson and Marion could guard point guards, and they don't have to. This trade would have no effect on our point guard rotation. Marion can defend 2 guards in the league, but if this trade happened then Kawhi would play some at the 2. Of course, remember we have a guy named Manu to play significant minutes when it counts in the playoffs, so Kawhi would only need to play a handful of minutes at the 2. We also have Neal who can play there if we need.

    I agree it would be better to trade Jackson straight up for Marion, but in terms of my trade with the Hawks and Mavs, Atlanta would have no interest in him.

    The beauty of a trade that gives us Jackson, Kawhi AND Marion is that it gives us 3 guys who can defend (as best they can) the two best players in the league, Durant and Lebron. Green can't guard either of them, which makes him less valuable.

    As for your comment about the late pick, I have two comment. First, none of them were #30. A few picks earlier can make all the difference. Second, Parker was the only one who played a significant role as a rookie, and he was pretty much a total fluke. Splitter and Mahinmi didn't come to the NBA for years after they were drafted, Joseph has barely played in two years, and Hill and Beno averaged 16 and 14 minutes their rookie seasons. We have 2 seasons to win a le, and a #30 pick won't help in those two years.
    Over all we'll just agree to disagree. Williams' value really isn't that high. On draft night, it's very likely he'll just be dumped. $5 Million is too much to pay a player that you don't want in your rotation. Also, he apparently isn't even good enough to get back J.J Red without having a pick thrown in. So Bonner, cash (to cover the buyout) and 2013 and 2014 firsts should be more than enough.

    Green is probably the second-best point-guard defender on the team. Parker needs someone to whom he can switch off elite guards at times so that he doesn't have to play too much on both ends of the court. That is a big reason why Green won the starting job in the first place. Plus, players like Bledsoe and Reggie Jackson are slated to be part of two-point sets for their teams, so there needs to be someone who can guard them.

    Marion, Jack and Leonard are all players to guard Durant and James, but there's little reason to have three of those players on the team. If two players get into foul trouble guarding a wing in one game, your team has just lost anyway. Manu will be playing his usual limited minutes, and without Green, Ginobili may have to play more than he should in the playoffs.

    Parker was the 28th pick, which was as low as you could go in the first round back then. It's not like Bulls or Wizards were big threats to take him afterwards. In every draft there are players who are taken in the top of the second round who end up being good, so no, I don't think it's a good argument to say that the 30th pick is somehow terrible compared to 26-29. As for going all in for next season, I don't know if that the Spurs' strategy at this point. They've been trying to add young talent a lot recently.

    Once again, though, my biggest issue is that the Spurs give up the most to get back the least. It's clear that the Mavericks get back the best player while clearing even more cap space while the Hawks get everything they want for Smith, the bulk of which is coming from San Antonio. Mayo isn't a good piece in the deal because the Hawks would be in a catch-22 with his contract: either he players well and the Hawks want to keep him and he opts out (meaning the value of having him on the cheap is gone), or he plays poorly, he opts in and the Hawks lose cap space. With Mayo AND Green on the books, the Hawks lose more than $8 Million for July.

    So if the Hawks love Green and want cap space, why don't the Spurs just trade Jack, Green and sweeteners for Smith and skip the middleman?

  22. #2172
    Veteran Richie's Avatar
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    Over all we'll just agree to disagree. Williams' value really isn't that high. On draft night, it's very likely he'll just be dumped. $5 Million is too much to pay a player that you don't want in your rotation. Also, he apparently isn't even good enough to get back J.J Red without having a pick thrown in. So Bonner, cash (to cover the buyout) and 2013 and 2014 firsts should be more than enough.
    JJ Red is very highly coveted this summer, the Magic should be able to get a lot for him. There is a lot in between JJ Red and Spurs 2013 and 2014 picks for someone else to bid. I don't watch a huge amount of Twolves games, but Williams has played 25+ minutes 5 times in the 8 games in February, and is averaging 20 mins this season. It's not like he's rotting at the end of the Pups bench.

    Green is probably the second-best point-guard defender on the team. Parker needs someone to whom he can switch off elite guards at times so that he doesn't have to play too much on both ends of the court. That is a big reason why Green won the starting job in the first place. Plus, players like Bledsoe and Reggie Jackson are slated to be part of two-point sets for their teams, so there needs to be someone who can guard them.
    I disagree that Green is the 2nd best point guard defender, I'd definitely put Leonard ahead of him. Leonard could easily fill in Danny Greens role while Manu is on the bench and give Tony rest minutes against the top point guards, although Tony is going to have to carry a heavy load on both ends of the floor for us to get anywhere. He's still only 30, no reason to think he can't.

    Marion, Jack and Leonard are all players to guard Durant and James, but there's little reason to have three of those players on the team. If two players get into foul trouble guarding a wing in one game, your team has just lost anyway. Manu will be playing his usual limited minutes, and without Green, Ginobili may have to play more than he should in the playoffs.
    Bearing in mind that we will almost certainly have to play significant minutes in a small ball lineup to match the Heat and Thunder, it makes this trade look even better. If it was Marion/Kawhi/Jax all sharing minutes at the 3 I would probably agree with you, but if we trade Green then Kawhi will play minutes at the 2 while Manu is on the bench, and all three of them will be covering the 3 and 4 when we inevitably have to go small.

    I also don't know what you mean by Ginobili playing more than he should in the playoffs. If Manu can't manage 20 games of 34 minutes/night without any back2backs then he should retire. The fact is he gets rest all season specifically so we can rely on him to play 'big' minutes in the playoffs. Kawhi can split the remaining minutes at the 2 with Neal and then play minutes at 3 and 4 with Marion/Jack.

    Parker was the 28th pick, which was as low as you could go in the first round back then. It's not like Bulls or Wizards were big threats to take him afterwards. In every draft there are players who are taken in the top of the second round who end up being good, so no, I don't think it's a good argument to say that the 30th pick is somehow terrible compared to 26-29. As for going all in for next season, I don't know if that the Spurs' strategy at this point. They've been trying to add young talent a lot recently.
    If they aren't going all in to win with Duncan, they're fools. I actually think they are, since the traded away a 1st to get Jackson and dump Jeffersons contract.

    Sure there's almost always one or two decent players taken in the late first/early second, but the scarcity shows how much of a crapshoot it is. They are very rarely difference-makers, and if they turn out to be then it is normally after years of development. We don't have those years.

    Once again, though, my biggest issue is that the Spurs give up the most to get back the least. It's clear that the Mavericks get back the best player while clearing even more cap space while the Hawks get everything they want for Smith, the bulk of which is coming from San Antonio. Mayo isn't a good piece in the deal because the Hawks would be in a catch-22 with his contract: either he players well and the Hawks want to keep him and he opts out (meaning the value of having him on the cheap is gone), or he plays poorly, he opts in and the Hawks lose cap space. With Mayo AND Green on the books, the Hawks lose more than $8 Million for July.

    So if the Hawks love Green and want cap space, why don't the Spurs just trade Jack, Green and sweeteners for Smith and skip the middleman?
    I disagree completely that we are giving up the most. Marion + Mayo + #42 is much more valuable that Bonner + Green + #30. Neither pick is worth a whole lot, just sweetener really, the only thing we're giving up that is of real value to the Spurs is Green. It's not far off being a Green for Marion trade, with Bonner being used as salary filler and a pick which will almost certainly do nothing to help us in the next 2 years.

    I disagree Mayo isn't a good piece, because he hasn't played anywhere near good enough this year to make it worth opting out. Even if he plays well for the Hawks in the remaining 30 games, I don't see what he's done this year to get him a bigger deal. That part is a gamble though, but I don't think the risk is as high as you make out.

  23. #2173
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    As I said, we'll agree to disagree. I think the Spurs get worse with that deal. I only take back Marion if I can get rid of Jack.

  24. #2174
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    If Mavs are open to moving Marion, I hope we get involved with both them and the Hawks

    Smith to Mavs
    Marion to Spurs
    Danny Green, Bonner, OJ Mayo, Spurs 1st, Mavs 2nd to Hawks

    Off season we re sign Splitter, Manu, Jack and have the MLE for a big man, perhaps Brand or Kaman. A wing rotation of Kawhi/Manu/Jackson/Marion is elite defensively, and even playing 'small ball' we won't sacrifice a lot of rebounding with Marion and Kawhi both on the floor.

    Mavs can re sign Smith and a max free agent, we get better, Hawks get some good young talent and a couple picks.
    Wag kang tanga pare

  25. #2175
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    Marion lol

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