Spurs Salaries and Luxury Tax Situation.

[lurker23]

Originally Posted by Mel_13

So time will tell, but I think the most likely scenario is one where a combination of trades, FA signings, and a possible Manu extension leaves the Spurs with total payroll commitments right around the salary cap going into the summer of 2010 and that they then use the MLE, LLE and their 2010 1st rounder to fill the space between the cap and the tax.

Good post. In many ways, being slightly over the cap with 8 players signed to contract is a stronger position than being $12 million under the cap with 5-6 players under contract.

[Mel_13]

Originally Posted by lurker23

Good post. In many ways, being slightly over the cap with 8 players signed to contract is a stronger position than being $12 million under the cap with 5-6 players under contract.

Thanks

The Spurs operate on a budget. Since the advent of the 2005 CBA, the Spurs budget and the luxury tax limit have been almost the same number. Predictions of future actions by the Spurs that use the lux tax limit as the working budget number have the greatest chance of proving true.

It's also why I think that if the Spurs take a greater risk in a player acquisition than most recent moves it is more likely to be using the MLE on a player with a short resume (Gortat, for ex.) than in a blockbuster trade for a Vince Carter.

[Knoxxx]

So essentially we are just waiting until Finley's July 1 decision, which affects whether we have the full MLE available? What is the timeline here?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Originally Posted by Knoxxx

So essentially we are just waiting until Finley's July 1 decision, which affects whether we have the full MLE available? What is the timeline here?

Not true. Even if Finley opts out we'd still be unable to use our MLE without going over the Lux tax. Ditto if Bowen's and Oberto's contracts are traded. The only chance to use the whole MLE is to waive them both and if Finley retires.

[portnoy1]

Pf - Duncan / Thomas / Bonner
Sf - Singleton / D.Jones
C - Nesterovic / Ratliff / Mahinmi
Pg - Parker / Hill
Sg -Mason jr. / Manu / M. williams

If Finley doesn't resign, then we can drop Bowen/Oberto and save about $6.5million if you include Finley not Resigning.

1 - we can Sign Rasho and finally have 7footer , and do the twin towers thing again. He made $8.4 last year, I would give him $3 or 4 million. He should understand that he is older and that he will be on a team that can win a title, unlike Indiana or Toronto.

2 - Sign Dahntay Jones He can be a defensive man off the bench. He is athletic and can dunk the ball. He is making under $1 million. We can give him $2 million an tell him the same thing we tell rasho ( you know, the whole championship thing ).

3 - Sign James singleton, He canget rebounds at the 3 position, he is athletic and has a decent shot. He is also 6-8, which will allw Pop to go small and not get killed on the boards if he wants Singleton to play the 4 position every now and then. He makes under $1 Million. we give him $1 or 1.5 million.

4 - Sign Theo Ratliff, He can block shots and is physical and strong. he is a good 6-10 and can play behind Duncan on the floor because of his shot - blocking. He makes under $1 million. we can give him $1 million.

and if at all possible trade Mason jr. / Bonner / Thomas for a scoring small Forward. Jefferson would be nice. If not, the other plan still works just fine.

Now we are a little younger , more athletic and better defensively. Everbody talks about how we couldn't score against teams and such. Defense wins championships. We have to get back to old school spurs defense. Twin towers / Pesky perimeter D'. Our scoring will get better if we have a healthy big 3, and few guys who can score 10-15pts any given night.

[mountainballer]

jesus, Rasho + Ratliff as the Spurs new center solution! put half SA on suicide watch!
and we don't get exactly younger and more athletic by signing and unathletic 33 years old player and a 36 years old player with more spare parts than a 1973 Fiat Spider.

the only interesting idea is Jones, but after his performance for the Nuggets he will command more than 2 million per. (or he has some more games like the last two, then his asking price will go down again)

[portnoy1]

Originally Posted by mountainballer

jesus, Rasho + Ratliff as the Spurs new center solution! put half SA on suicide watch!
and we don't get exactly younger and more athletic by signing and unathletic 33 years old player and a 36 years old player with more spare parts than a 1973 Fiat Spider.

the only interesting idea is Jones, but after his performance for the Nuggets he will command more than 2 million per. (or he has some more games like the last two, then his asking price will go down again)

Ok you can still sign Singleton / D. Jones / T. Ratliff
However instead of cutting Bowen / Oberto, You can trade Them along with Kurt Thomas or Matt Bonner to Clippers for C - Chris Kaman. The Clippers get an Expiring contract ( Thomas or Bonner ) and also they get contracts they can buy out, Bowen/Oberto giving them almost $ 4 million to play with after they cut Bowen/Oberto and still have money on the table to build around or pay for their No. 1 draft pick. The spurs get a 7 Footer who is only 27, and can do it all. Rebound, Defend ( Block shots) score in the post and hit the J.


PF - Duncan 18pts 10rbs 1 blk
SF - Singleton 6pts 6rbs
C - Kaman 12pts 7rbs 1 blk
PG - Parker 20pts 7ast
SG - Mason Jr. 10 pts
Bench

Manu 16pts and the crazy, unexpected game saving plays.
D.Jones great Perimeter Defense and drives to the basket.
G. hill 7pts backup point and solid Defense on the ball
T. Ratliff 2pts 2rbs 1blk? / wont get alot of time but will be like a Dikembe Mutumbo. Will play 10min. here and there to defend, block shots and use fouls.

Manu / D. Jones / G.Hill will probably be the Rotation. Singleton will spend half of his time playing the 4 position since he is 6-8 and athletic and gets a tin of Rebounds. that way the spurs will go small and not get beat on the boards

2nd unit / Small unit

PF- Singleton
SF - Jones
C - Kaman
PG - Hill
SG - Manu

[draft87]

Originally Posted by mountainballer

did ever a championship team come out of the free agency? I can't remember. as Bruno mentioned, there are 3 way to improve: trades, draft and free agency.
but if we look at the championship teams of the last years, all of them were built by draft and trades. (I'm talking about the cornerstones, not the role players)
Spurs only by draft (Tim, Tony, Manu), Celtics, Heat, Pistons, Lakers, Bulls by a combination of picks and trades.
the last FA signing I remember that turned into a top three player on a championship team was Billups, but he wasn't a big money signing, back then he was the typical MLE signing.
all the other max signings out of cap room didn't turn teams into champs. very often they didn't even improve the team.
I think free agency is good for finding complementary players, but not for building the foundation of a big team.
the reason is simple. to be able to make a max signing, the team needs to be below the cap that far, that there usually isn't enough depth left. you may add a star, but to finish the whole building, the team usually doesn't have the potential left.
trades are a different thing. via a combination of contracts, you can get those players, that are crucial to finally win it all. see Shaq to Heat. KG+RA to Celtics. Sheed to Pistons. maybe Gasol to Lakers. maybe Mo Willams to Cavs.
that's why I'm not a fan of all the free agency scenarios.
if the Spurs in fact reduce the team to just Tony and Tim and a few rookie contract players, they will very likely find themself without a top FA and even if they do find a decent player, they would be to thin to compete. (we need to see that a big signing 2010 automatically means that Manu is no longer with the team)
improvement via trade is the much better strategy. and this will be the year to do it, there will be more star players on the market for dump packages than ever. Spurs might not be as lucky as the Pistons in 2004 or the Lakers in 2008, but a nice player can be all theirs, if they pull the trigger. I'm absolutely sure that another title can only be won, if the Spurs keep the big three together (pray for Manu's health) and add one significant piece. forget the 2010 free agency. 2012 will be the year to re start from scratch. till then they have 3 more shots. if they take some risk this summer.

well, does shaq count? he didn't get the title right away, but he did get three in a row with l.a. and he was the mvp.

[Obstructed_View]

Originally Posted by draft87

well, does shaq count? he didn't get the title right away, but he did get three in a row with l.a. and he was the mvp.

Yeah I pointed that one out earlier in the thread. I think.

[draft87]

and i guess if the magic pull through they'll be the ultimate title through free agency team.

turkoglu-FA from SA
pietrus-FA from GS
lewis-sign and trades count!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I have 2 questions regarding possible draft moves:
1. If the Spurs were to buy a pick (say the Hornets' 21), where would that money come out of?
2. And would the $1.1M (salary on the 21st pick) spent on the drafted player come out of the MLE? If not, then where?

[DPG21920]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth

I have 2 questions regarding possible draft moves:
1. If the Spurs were to buy a pick (say the Hornets' 21), where would that money come out of?
2. And would the $1.1M (salary on the 21st pick) spent on the drafted player come out of the MLE? If not, then where?

The owners would just have to pay their own cash, it would come out of any money that they have.

The guaranteed salary would be from the rookie scale contract and would not come out of any thing the MLE or LLE consists of. It would just count against the cap, much like a league minimum contract or something like that.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Thanks.

[Bruno]

A little update after that great trade and just before the draft:

Spurs 09-10 salaries :

Players with a guaranteed salary :
Spurs have 8 players with a fully guaranteed contract and without team or player options.
Salaries for these 8 players are :
Tim Duncan: $22,183,220
Richard Jefferson: $14,200,000
Tony Parker: $12,600,000
Manu Ginobili: $10,728,130
Roger Mason: $3,780,000
Matt Bonner: $3,256,000
George Hill: $1,081,680
Ian Mahinmi: $899,700
The total salary for these 8 players is $68,728,730

Player with a player option:
Michael Finley has a $2.5M player option for the 08-09 season. He must decide to pick or not before July 1st. So far, he hasn't made a choice.

Player with a non-guaranteed salary:
Marcus Williams contract is likely fully non-guaranteed and likely becomes more and more guaranteed with the summer advancing. His full salary for 09-10 is $825,497.

The Luxury Tax:

It is now almost sure that Spurs will be over the tax. Big props to the owners for allowing it.
If Finley pick his option, Spurs use the full MLE, the LLE and fill the whole roster, they could be as much as $11M over the tax. I don't know if Spurs ownership will allow it but I have some doubts.
If Spurs don't want to go that far against the tax, they can:
- Fill their needs with trades rather than free agency.
- Not have a full roster and decide to only have 13 or 14 players under contract.
- Sign second round picks. Second round picks are the cheapest way to fill a roster.

The 2010 Plan:

Jefferson has a player option of $15.2M for 2010-2011. He will without a doubt pick it so forget the 2010 plan.
The number to look at for 2010-2011 is now the luxury tax threshold. With 3 players (Duncan, Parker and Jefferson) with a combined salary of $47.5M and a luxury tax threshold likely lower than in 2009-2010, Spurs should be quickly close or over it.

[timvp]

Thanks.

Let's hope that Finley doesn't come back and that Holt is willing to really push the envelope in regards to the tax.

[Chieflion]

Originally Posted by timvp

Thanks.

Let's hope that Finley doesn't come back and that Holt is willing to really push the envelope in regards to the tax.

I hope Finley does not pick up his player option. If he does, there are a few things Spurs can do.

1. Trade him for a 2nd round pick. We have seen Marcus Camby for 2nd round pick happen before.

2. Play him in limited minutes.

3. Trade him for a cheap big.

[loveforthegame]

If the Spurs have spelled things out to Finley which I'm sure they have because they've done so for Udoka then why hasn't he made his decision yet? Especially if they have told him that they'll look to trade him should he pick his option up.

[lurker23]

Thanks for the info, Bruno. Could you give us some idea how much resigning Fabricio Oberto and/or Bruce Bowen for the minimum would cost? I see that the minimum salaries for these two are $884,881 and $1,306,455 respectively, but how much would those contracts cost the Spurs both in terms of real money and cap/tax space?

[Brazil]

So RJ will make more money than TP and Manu... wow

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by lurker23

Thanks for the info, Bruno. Could you give us some idea how much resigning Fabricio Oberto and/or Bruce Bowen for the minimum would cost? I see that the minimum salaries for these two are $884,881 and $1,306,455 respectively, but how much would those contracts cost the Spurs both in terms of real money and cap/tax space?

You have three rules to know regarding minimum salaries contract :

1) "When a player has been in the NBA for three or more seasons, and is playing under a one-year, ten-day or rest-of-season contract, the league actually reimburses the team for part of his salary - any amount above the minimum salary level for a two-year veteran. For example, in 2005-06 the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is $719,373, so for a ten-year veteran, with a minimum salary of $1,138,500, the league would reimburse the team $419,127. Only the two-year minimum salary is included in the team salary, not the player's full salary. They do this so teams won't shy away from signing older veterans simply because they are more expensive when filling out their last few roster spots"

2) When you calculate the luxury tax: "For players who signed as free agents (i.e., not draft picks), and make less than the two-year minimum salary, the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is used in place of their actual salary."

3) When you calculate the luxury tax: "For minimum salary players whose salary is partially paid by the league only the amount paid by the team (the two-year minimum salary) is taxed."

Quotes coming from http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

For 09-10, the min salary for a two-year vet is $825,497.

If you sign Bruce or Oberto to one year min salaries contract:
- Spurs would only pay $825,497 in salary. The rest will be paid by the league.
- They would count for $825,497 against the tax.

[lurker23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

You have three rules to know regarding minimum salaries contract :

1) "When a player has been in the NBA for three or more seasons, and is playing under a one-year, ten-day or rest-of-season contract, the league actually reimburses the team for part of his salary - any amount above the minimum salary level for a two-year veteran. For example, in 2005-06 the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is $719,373, so for a ten-year veteran, with a minimum salary of $1,138,500, the league would reimburse the team $419,127. Only the two-year minimum salary is included in the team salary, not the player's full salary. They do this so teams won't shy away from signing older veterans simply because they are more expensive when filling out their last few roster spots"

2) When you calculate the luxury tax: "For players who signed as free agents (i.e., not draft picks), and make less than the two-year minimum salary, the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is used in place of their actual salary."

3) When you calculate the luxury tax: "For minimum salary players whose salary is partially paid by the league only the amount paid by the team (the two-year minimum salary) is taxed."

Quotes coming from http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

For 09-10, the min salary for a two-year vet is $825,497.

If you sign Bruce or Oberto to one year min salaries contract:
- Spurs would only pay $825,497 in salary. The rest will be paid by the league.
- They would count for $825,497 against the tax.

Thanks Bruno, major props. I'll have to keep those particular rules in mind. As expected, Oberto and Bowen are both very economical moves, assuming they want them back. I'd personally take them both.

[Obstructed_View]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If Spurs don't want to go that far against the tax, they can:
- Fill their needs with trades rather than free agency.
- Not have a full roster and decide to only have 13 or 14 players under contract.
- Sign second round picks. Second round picks are the cheapest way to fill a roster.

Splitter, Hairston, Gist. Problem solved.

[Phila_Chamberlain]

Quick question, I wasn't sure where else to put this. In order to sign draft picks like Gist and Blair, we just sign them right? We don't have to take out any part of our MLE or LLE correct? I understand we can't use the MLE or LLE if it gets in the way of the hard cap, but I don't think we have to worry about that.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Phila_Chamberlain

Quick question, I wasn't sure where else to put this. In order to sign draft picks like Gist and Blair, we just sign them right? We don't have to take out any part of our MLE or LLE correct? I understand we can't use the MLE or LLE if it gets in the way of the hard cap, but I don't think we have to worry about that.

Teams don't have special exceptions to sign second round picks. Like for other FA, Spurs can use the minimum salary exception, the LLE or the MLE.

Teams mainly use the minimum salary exception on second round picks. With it, they can sign the player to a 1 or 2 years contract with a min salary. If Spurs wants to give more money per year and/or more years to a second round picks, they will have to use a part of the MLE or LLE (LLE contracts are 1 or 2 years long).

It will be interesting what kind of contracts Blair will get. He is better than the traditional second round picks but his knees are a timebomb. If Spurs don't use the full MLE on other FA(s), I wouldn't be surprised to see Spurs giving him a 3 years contract with a team option on the third year.

[Phila_Chamberlain]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Teams don't have special exceptions to sign second round picks. Like for other FA, Spurs can use the minimum salary exception, the LLE or the MLE.

Teams mainly use the minimum salary exception on second round picks. With it, they can sign the player to a 1 or 2 years contract with a min salary. If Spurs wants to give more money per year and/or more years to a second round picks, they will have to use a part of the MLE or LLE (LLE contracts are 1 or 2 years long).

It will be interesting what kind of contracts Blair will get. He is better than the traditional second round picks but his knees are a timebomb. If Spurs don't use the full MLE on other FA(s), I wouldn't be surprised to see Spurs giving him a 3 years contract with a team option on the third year.

On that note, is it possible to get a 2 year team option on second round draft picks or is that only for first round draft picks as of now?

[Mel_13]

Originally Posted by Phila_Chamberlain

On that note, is it possible to get a 2 year team option on second round draft picks or is that only for first round draft picks as of now?

It is possible. The Celtics signed Bill Walker to a 4yr/3M contract last year. The last two years are fully unguaranteed. The Celtics can waive him after the second year and be off the hook for the last two years.

Edit: Team must use cap space or part of the MLE to do this.