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  1. #1301
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    Giving that Madrid last season broke La Liga's record on points and goals scored I say that Madrid fans are pretty pleased with their team and rank them pretty high on the all-time list, tbh. If it wasn't for this once in a lifetime Barca team who knows what else this Madrid team could have done.

    And regarding the Barca thing, sorry I should have said teams that mattered. Either way I was looking to see which team won 7 les on a season and I couldn't find it, all I could find was this:

    http://www.marca.com/2009/12/19/futb...261249352.html

    So if you can provide which team won 7 les on a season I will appreciate it. Thanks in advanced.

    or, this is a historically weak, concentrated la liga and a number of past madrid teams would have wiped the floor with this weak ass team. ask around and see what people think, most I know think the latter.


    Linfield got a septuple twice, in 1921-1922 (7 for 7) and 1961-1962 they lost a final for what would have been an octuple (7 for 8).

    If you are thinking that is irrelevant, thats because it is. In order to win that many les you have to play that many, and the only "serious" leagues that play that many are england and spain and AFAIK they have only begun to play that many " les" in the last 20-30 odd years. It should be telling though that most teams "that matter" dont play that many compe ions in one year, unless you think the italian, german, and south american leagues dont matter. Some of them may not matter NOW, but historically speaking, the ones that dont matter are england and spain.

    so yes, it was obvious you'd go with the teams "that matter" angle. But is beating athletic bilbao and shaktar donetsk in single game / 2 leg cups something that really matters? In any case, tons of other teams have won every tournament they participated in, from Pele's Santos to the egyptian team that went undefeated in every tournament that i referenced earlier. To say NO TEAM IN HISTORY EVAR DID THIS!!1! is bull, unless you start adding the necessary qualifiers, IE, no european team that matters ever won the champions league as well as all other compe ions they participated in totalling at least 6 les in slightly over a calendar year. In that case, yes, 2009 Barca did something no other team did before!

    I agree though that 2009 barca was great, and people will remember them for being great. I just really doubt people will meet in bars in 30 years to discuss that sextuple (half of which came from beating the 13th placed la liga team in two different finals, and one of the lesser turkish teams in another), but rather their style and great offensive play in the tournaments that matter, the CL, WCC, and to a lesser extent the top heavy la liga.

  2. #1302
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    If this current La Liga is weak then I don't want to think how weak the rest of the leagues are giving that the middle table teams from La Liga beat the out of the rest of the teams, including the Champions League champions.

    And please provide a link when arguing something I can't find anything about Linfield winning a "septuple". Anyway you know what I meant when I said that about Barca, there's a reason when Barca won everything in '09 every newspaper said that nobody else accomplished that feat.

  3. #1303
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    In that sense I disagree with Alvarez, I think this barca team if you put it in late 80's Italy it would struggle with the size and power of that era's teams (especially, AC milan). they would at the very least make the barca small ball style sweat bullets. even early 2000 madrid would be a handful for them, do you think they'd get away with playing mascherano as a fullback against Ronaldo and Raul? they'd eat him alive, and they're not the only ones who would. which ever way you slice it, there is no clear rival for barca to overcome beyond madrid and maybe chelsea or man U.
    OK I'm talking Barca of 2 years ago...at their peak, not at the precise moment with more age and injuries. I'm talking a fit Pique, Puyol, Abidal, and Alves. Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets midfield. Messi, Villa, Pedro, all in form. That team that dominated ManU in the CL final and everyone else could definitely play with any team. They have so many fast and skilled players...Xavi, Iniesta, Messi...as far as ball control, passing, and general attacking skills/awareness it doesn't get much better. That team was really strong from top to bottom at their prime.

  4. #1304
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    get your facts straight son

    - he never played amazingly on a WC
    - he is not top 5 without a great WC, we are not talking about a talent lost in the middle of a ty NT, we are talking about Argentina
    - every 100 years yeah because Pele, Maradona, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Cruyff... are from last century
    - yes he is doing amazingly great with NT but not in WC so we don't care
    - son I have no issue with bumping what you want, I'm a fan of Argentina and I will give Messi his due when he will bring a legendary WC or a le to his country. Until that I'm at those who compare him to Maradona

    gob bless you and your family son
    Considering what he has done all over Europe I see no reason for him to not be compared to Maradona, Argentina needs to be collectively well prepared if they want to win the WC, as far as I'm concern they lack one aspect of the game and all of you know which one it is.. I highly doubt Messi ever wins a WC to be honest, the team overall is just not there. What will matter is how far he takes them and how well he does during that process.


    And what do you mean that by the "we don't care?" I think every Argentinian that doubted him in the first place care, don't you think they care how well Messi does? Messi is already legendary in many people's eyes, It's just that you have some blind hate towards him and It's noticeable If you don't wanna hear comparisons between Messi and Maradona than just don't hear them, but you can't change my perspective of him along with other's. My opinion holds little weight just like yours, what I know is that actual "experts" of the game are already comparing him to ONLY Pele and Maradona, I wonder why?
    Last edited by Relevancy; 11-03-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  5. #1305
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    Considering what he has done all over Europe I see no reason for him to not be compared to Maradona, Argentina needs to be collectively well prepared if they want to win the WC, as far as I'm concern they lack one aspect of the game and all of you know which one it is.. I highly doubt Messi ever wins a WC to be honest, the team overall is just not there. What will matter is how far he takes them and how well he does during that process.


    And what do you mean that by the "we don't care?" I think every Argentinian that doubted him in the first place care, don't you think they care how well Messi does? Messi is already legendary in many people's eyes, It's just that you have some blind hate towards him and It's noticeable If you don't wanna hear comparisons between Messi and Maradona than just don't hear them, but you can't change my perspective of him along with other's. My opinion holds little weight just like yours, what I know is that actual "experts" of the game are already comparing him to ONLY Pele and Maradona, I wonder why?
    you should learn to read before quoting and making an answer tbh

  6. #1306
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    I get your point . And I certainly agree, but I don't the opinions here are mutually exclusive. Well...maybe yours and DAFs are almost. But I think it's fair to say Messi appears to be on the way to legend status. He is smashing all of the records at a very young age...he's 25! He's got another decade left. Literally all that's missing is a WC and he would essentially have a PERFECT resume. He would have won everything there is to win, most of things several times (league, champs league, individual awards), and doing so in such convincing fashion. Of course he plays for Barca but he's shattering a lot of individual records, and he's not strictly a one-dimensional CF who is always at the right place at the right time knocking in goals. He scores amazing goals constantly and creates a ton of them as well.

    If he doesn't win a WC but continues to produce similar seasons as he has in the past 3 years (or even a moderate drop), he's still at the very least on Cruyff's level. If he wins a WC, I don't see how he isn't up with Pele and Maradona.
    At the end of the day I think our opinions are quite close tbh

  7. #1307
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    you should learn to read before quoting and making an answer tbh
    I think I answered several of your claims, I didn't answer to all of them because they were stupid to begin with, don't quote me again if your not gonna respond back with an actual answer thb.

  8. #1308
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    I think I answered several of your claims, I didn't answer to all of them because they were stupid to begin with, don't quote me again if your not gonna respond back with an actual answer thb.
    First of all I quote who I want for whatever reason I want. Second, read again the we don't care part and you will realize that your famous answer is totally off target. Finally your blind hate argument is totally stupid, I have no reasons at all to hate him. I'm a big fan of Argentina in general and his NT is particular therefore I wish Messi help his team to win a WC.

  9. #1309
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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  10. #1310
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    And please provide a link when arguing something I can't find anything about Linfield winning a "septuple". Anyway you know what I meant when I said that about Barca, there's a reason when Barca won everything in '09 every newspaper said that nobody else accomplished that feat.
    funny, when i put "linfield septuple" into google, the 2nd link is this:

    http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/champio...-to-do-so.aspx

    and the 4th:

    http://articles.squarefootball.net/s...rebles-qu.html

    though to be fair, the first link is this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ation_football

    which has some discussion that mentions not finding any reference to the Linfield septuples because Linfield is a crap Irish League team, which means you're not the only one not finding them; funny though, the bulk of that link is people arguing about how to define a season, in large part re: the barcelona sextuple.

    I do believe there is another sextuple still, but from an even crappier league (malta).

    and in any case, your original post said nothing about 6 les, it said
    "winning all the tournaments that they have played on a season"
    and other teams "that matter" have done that, in europe and south america for trebles and quadruples, just admit you were stretching out to find another prop for messi with that record, its meaningless. Messi has plenty of other records that matter much more than that one!

    Giving that Madrid last season broke La Liga's record on points and goals scored I say that Madrid fans are pretty pleased with their team and rank them pretty high on the all-time list, tbh. If it wasn't for this once in a lifetime Barca team who knows what else this Madrid team could have done.
    that doesnt give you anything, just that madrid got a lot of points. it doesnt tell you anything about how they got them, and the point you're missing is a record like that says the opposite, not that madrid was great but that the opponents sucked. I know exactly what they could have done "if not for barcelona": be an utterly forgetable champion, much like mou's inter team and to a lesser degree chelsea now.

    The last boca championship in '11, the team went undefeated and set a record for point difference in the history of the arg league. Do you think that makes 2011 undefeated boca a top 5 team in boca history? it sounds good but it doesnt reflect the reality of that team.

    i dont really want to start looking up the point record for random leagues, but I'm confident enough to bet that the teams with those records weren't particularly strong for that teams history or in the context of that season.
    Last edited by diego; 11-04-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  11. #1311
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    When the teams that play in that league dominate the teams from other leagues (Atletico and Bilbao playing the Europa league final, Athletic trashing Manchester United, Atletico beating 4-0 the CL champions, Malaga beating Milan and being perfect on the CL, Valencia tied on first place on its CL group too and well we all know Barca) I think your argument doesn't hold much truth, does it?

    La Liga being weak is a re ed argument that people that aren't paying atention like to repeat.

  12. #1312
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Regarding Barca's place in history I'm going to use your "ask around and see what people think" criteria.

    http://www.espnstar.com/editorial/ne...est-team-ever/
    http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain...eam-in-history
    http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain...eam-in-history
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...team-ever.html
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...rt4/index.html
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Sports/F...#axzz2mx68Xokc

    And there's many more to post. When a team draws this kind of talk from so many people I think it's safe to say that they will be remembered.

  13. #1313
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    La Liga being weak is a re ed argument that people that aren't paying atention like to repeat.
    You make a good point. In reality, La Liga is a weak/boring league to follow simply because the top 2 teams are far better than the rest of the compe ion. Not so much that the league as a whole is made of weak teams, but that the top is extremely strong. Real and Barca are by far the 2 best and most stacked teams in the world.

    Spain produces a lot of great footballers as well, and the Spanish, English, and Italian leagues are unanimously regarded as the top leagues in the world, so it wouldn't make sense if La Liga teams sucked. They could have also just had a good year against European compe ion. But yeah, what's really happening is Real and Barca are better than all (except Spain) national teams, so obviously the rest are going to look bad. I'm sure they would crush the Swansea's and Genoa's on a regular basis as well.

  14. #1314
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    Except Spain not, they are better than Spain. Barcelona is basically Spain plus the best player on the World and the best right back on the World.

    But that's nothing strange tbh, dividing by tiers European clubs tend to be better than the NTs.

  15. #1315
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    Spain has more depth though. Barca, Madrid, Spain...the differences in entire clubs are marginal compared to the differences of those squads vs all other squads in the world.
    The Spanish NT is definitely better than all other big Euro clubs though.

  16. #1316
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    Of course the depth will be better, they have a whole country to choose from

    What I'm saying is that if they were to face each other, Barca beats Spain most of the time.

  17. #1317
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    And yeah, Spain is better than the other teams but Manchester City is better than England, Bayern Munich is better than Germany, Juventus is better than Italy and so on.

  18. #1318
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    OK I'm talking Barca of 2 years ago...at their peak, not at the precise moment with more age and injuries. I'm talking a fit Pique, Puyol, Abidal, and Alves. Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets midfield. Messi, Villa, Pedro, all in form. That team that dominated ManU in the CL final and everyone else could definitely play with any team. They have so many fast and skilled players...Xavi, Iniesta, Messi...as far as ball control, passing, and general attacking skills/awareness it doesn't get much better. That team was really strong from top to bottom at their prime.
    isnt that the team chewy ot started a weak lineup, i think nani was starting from the bench came in late into the game....

    or u talkin about the ronaldo manutd team that made the finals and loss?

  19. #1319
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    Hey midget nuthuggers, come here and this:



    So humble, so nice, there's no evil in that boy, Midget=GOD

  20. #1320
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  21. #1321
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    damn it, I deleted the reply i was making. good thing i found an article that makes my argument, and with "facts" to boot!

    link

    There is a difference between the same two (or three, or four) teams winning the league and the same two teams winning virtually every game. It is not normal for four- or five-goal victories to be more common than one- or two-goal victories, but that is what is happening. Last season, Valencia finished third. They were 39 points behind the champions. The season before the gap was 25 points and the season before that 28. Before that, Sevilla were third. They were 27 points behind.

    That is a reality. It is a footballing and a financial fact. It is also self-perpetuating, it creates an upward spiral for the big two and a downward spiral for the rest. Jordi Alba has signed for Barcelona from Valencia, Luka Modric of Spurs will probably sign for Real. Over the past three seasons, a case can be made to say that the Spanish league has taken the best player from the Premier League (Ronaldo, Fábregas), Serie A (Kaká, Ibrahimovic) and the Bundesliga (Sahin). But that case depends on you treating the Spanish league, Barça and Real as synonymous, acting like they and they alone are the Spanish league. Which is exactly what they do. It is what they do, the TV operators do and the media do. It is what many fans do, too.

    Spain play in Puerto Rico on Wednesday evening. Another transatlantic friendly no one cares about and four days before the season starts. The only debate is whether Real and Barcelona's players will play the same number of minutes. No one cares about the rest.

    The big two keep improving; for the rest, standing still is as much as they can aspire to. This summer Valencia's most expensive player cost €3.7m. Sevilla's cost €3.5m. They are the highest-priced signings outside the big two. Most cannot even do that.

    This summer, Real and Barcelona have spent more money on players for their B teams than half of the league has on players for their first teams. Instead players depart. Even on the Costa del Sol. The one team that could in theory have challenged the big two was Málaga. But a year after spending almost €60m on players, their Qatari owner, Sheikh Al-Thani, has pulled the plug. Santi Cazorla went, Salomon Rondon, too, and there may yet be more leaving.

    The bottom line is that people want to watch the best players and, in that sense, Spain's top league remains the best in the world. If you want to see Messi and Ronaldo play, you have to watch La Liga. But because of their dominance, because of Real and Barcelona's power, other good players are no longer on display.

    ---



    when russian/ukranian teams are winning europa the past couple years does anyone outside of their countries' care?
    you can't say malaga or bilbao or even athletic "dominate" when the first two have at the most a couple of good months, and the second never does anything beyond the europa league (while teams like Lyon have eliminated real madrid teams that cost more than 20 times their roster)
    up until 2010, korea had the exact same best finishes as spain in the WC (4th place, a couple of quarters; they even had some good head to head results). Did anyone EVER consider korea to be NEAR spain on a football field?
    upsets are upsets. having a good tournament is nothing to be ashamed of, but it doesnt make a team a powerhouse.
    just for you, stat man, by country:

    Italy 12 CL finals, 9 UEFA= 21
    Spain 13 CL finals, 7 UEFA= 20
    England 12 CL finals, 6 UEFA = 18
    Germany 6 CL, 6 UEFA = 12

    so is Italy the best or do we have to start adding qualifiers for time periods? what if we add world cups? or what if, there's more to it than ing stats?


    and thanks for the links about this barca team. I much rather you argue with opinions than irrelevant, contrived stats. now if you can show me a link of where *I* said this barca team is forgettable, that will help me understand your post a little better.

    ps.: you still havent acknowledged that other teams have "won all the tournaments that they have played on a season". just in case you don't intentionally want to look like a liar, it wouldn't hurt to recognize the mistake.
    pps: right now its easy to say that the best clubs beat their home NT, but in other eras that was not the case, and I suspect in the future that will change back and forth. This economic model hasnt proven itself to be sustainable to just assume it will continue like this forever, and the next time Brazil has a great generation of players it will go back to being <insert european club here> wishes they could afford the brazilian NT as its roster...

  22. #1322
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    and again, on the subject of legend-
    everyone loves a winner, thats true.
    but nobody likes a pocket book champ, that buys its way to success. Its a large part of the reason people love Maradona's story (instead of going to a stacked team as most soccer stars do, he did the opposite), and hate the "evil empire" of the rich pay-your-way teams- the lakers, the yankees, the real madrids, the ac milans, man city, chelski and modern man utd. are also in that group and malaga too. bandwagoneers love those teams because they win A LOT (supposedly! ), but at the same time most fans of other teams unite in their hatred of them.

    barca historically is not part of that group but the present team is winning with more than just skill and savvy, they are major players in FA.

  23. #1323
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  24. #1324
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    damn it, I deleted the reply i was making. good thing i found an article that makes my argument, and with "facts" to boot!

    link

    There is a difference between the same two (or three, or four) teams winning the league and the same two teams winning virtually every game. It is not normal for four- or five-goal victories to be more common than one- or two-goal victories, but that is what is happening. Last season, Valencia finished third. They were 39 points behind the champions. The season before the gap was 25 points and the season before that 28. Before that, Sevilla were third. They were 27 points behind.

    That is a reality. It is a footballing and a financial fact. It is also self-perpetuating, it creates an upward spiral for the big two and a downward spiral for the rest. Jordi Alba has signed for Barcelona from Valencia, Luka Modric of Spurs will probably sign for Real. Over the past three seasons, a case can be made to say that the Spanish league has taken the best player from the Premier League (Ronaldo, Fábregas), Serie A (Kaká, Ibrahimovic) and the Bundesliga (Sahin). But that case depends on you treating the Spanish league, Barça and Real as synonymous, acting like they and they alone are the Spanish league. Which is exactly what they do. It is what they do, the TV operators do and the media do. It is what many fans do, too.

    Spain play in Puerto Rico on Wednesday evening. Another transatlantic friendly no one cares about and four days before the season starts. The only debate is whether Real and Barcelona's players will play the same number of minutes. No one cares about the rest.

    The big two keep improving; for the rest, standing still is as much as they can aspire to. This summer Valencia's most expensive player cost €3.7m. Sevilla's cost €3.5m. They are the highest-priced signings outside the big two. Most cannot even do that.

    This summer, Real and Barcelona have spent more money on players for their B teams than half of the league has on players for their first teams. Instead players depart. Even on the Costa del Sol. The one team that could in theory have challenged the big two was Málaga. But a year after spending almost €60m on players, their Qatari owner, Sheikh Al-Thani, has pulled the plug. Santi Cazorla went, Salomon Rondon, too, and there may yet be more leaving.

    The bottom line is that people want to watch the best players and, in that sense, Spain's top league remains the best in the world. If you want to see Messi and Ronaldo play, you have to watch La Liga. But because of their dominance, because of Real and Barcelona's power, other good players are no longer on display.

    ---



    when russian/ukranian teams are winning europa the past couple years does anyone outside of their countries' care?
    you can't say malaga or bilbao or even athletic "dominate" when the first two have at the most a couple of good months, and the second never does anything beyond the europa league (while teams like Lyon have eliminated real madrid teams that cost more than 20 times their roster)
    up until 2010, korea had the exact same best finishes as spain in the WC (4th place, a couple of quarters; they even had some good head to head results). Did anyone EVER consider korea to be NEAR spain on a football field?
    upsets are upsets. having a good tournament is nothing to be ashamed of, but it doesnt make a team a powerhouse.
    just for you, stat man, by country:

    Italy 12 CL finals, 9 UEFA= 21
    Spain 13 CL finals, 7 UEFA= 20
    England 12 CL finals, 6 UEFA = 18
    Germany 6 CL, 6 UEFA = 12

    so is Italy the best or do we have to start adding qualifiers for time periods? what if we add world cups? or what if, there's more to it than ing stats?


    and thanks for the links about this barca team. I much rather you argue with opinions than irrelevant, contrived stats. now if you can show me a link of where *I* said this barca team is forgettable, that will help me understand your post a little better.

    ps.: you still havent acknowledged that other teams have "won all the tournaments that they have played on a season". just in case you don't intentionally want to look like a liar, it wouldn't hurt to recognize the mistake.
    pps: right now its easy to say that the best clubs beat their home NT, but in other eras that was not the case, and I suspect in the future that will change back and forth. This economic model hasnt proven itself to be sustainable to just assume it will continue like this forever, and the next time Brazil has a great generation of players it will go back to being <insert european club here> wishes they could afford the brazilian NT as its roster...
    I don't know what you're arguing anymore, tbh. But just in case...

    1- The Spanish is the best league so no it isn't weak, Barca and Real are just THAT good.

    2-Real Madrid doesn't suck or anything remotely close to that, they are a great team that will go down in history as the team with the most points and goals in history, whether you like it or not.

    3- You know what I meant with that Barca claim but if it makes you feel better yeah, in the strict sense of the sentence I was wrong.

    4- Messi and this Barca team will go down in histroy as legends.

    Good night and God bless.

  25. #1325
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    and again, on the subject of legend-
    everyone loves a winner, thats true.
    but nobody likes a pocket book champ, that buys its way to success. Its a large part of the reason people love Maradona's story (instead of going to a stacked team as most soccer stars do, he did the opposite), and hate the "evil empire" of the rich pay-your-way teams- the lakers, the yankees, the real madrids, the ac milans, man city, chelski and modern man utd. are also in that group and malaga too. bandwagoneers love those teams because they win A LOT (supposedly! ), but at the same time most fans of other teams unite in their hatred of them.

    barca historically is not part of that group but the present team is winning with more than just skill and savvy, they are major players in FA.
    That's only 'cause Maradona failed huge time on Barca.

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