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  1. #101
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    It's not as much the personnel as much as it is the way their team is constructed. It's no accident that their team is built to attack San Antonio's weak spots. The Spurs stood in their way and the Mavs focused their efforts on finding their way around the Spurs.

    -The Spurs thrive on cutting down the opposition's assists ... but that doesn't matter against Dallas because the Mavs do most of their damage in isolation sets.

    -The Spurs get easy shots when teams double Duncan ... but the Mavs don't double Duncan and have the bigmen to pull it off without getting torched.

    -The Spurs purposely allow teams to shoot midrange jumpers ... the Mavs have players who can drain midrange jumpers.

    -The Spurs funnel penetration to the baseline ... the Mavs almost always have four players on the court that can penetrate and take advantage.

    -Parker and Ginobili thrive against bigger guards and small frontcourts ... the Mavs have smaller guards and a big frontcourt.

    Etc, etc . . .

    If there's a team in the West that gives the Spurs more matchup problems outside of L.A., I'd like to know of that team.

    You must not check very often. Especially considering that the Mavs rarely double-team him. If other teams used that tactic, Duncan would shred them. Duncan plays well against Dallas usually but no other team gets away with as many single-teams against Duncan than Dallas.



    Huh? Dampier and Haywood are probably two of the top ten post defenders in the NBA. Ignoring that duo would be foolish.

    I'm confident in Duncan but the Mavs have enough holes on defense that they don't have to solely rely on Duncan to produce offense.

    Watch more basketball.

    The Mavs almost always have a player either driving at Duncan or they force Duncan to rotate out on the perimeter. No other team forces Duncan to move as much on the defensive end.

    I don't even understand what you are whining about.

    Anyways, I've already explained Marion and Stevenson vs. Ginobili. Butler is a below average defender and Kidd isn't very good against players who penetrate off the dribble.
    Then you should have specified that your statement was more predicated on the way the team is constructed rather than player personnel. In that case, I agree with you and your points.

    No, you must not check very often. Duncan has historically destroyed Dampier. And how many teams consistently double Duncan now? Not many. That has more to do with the Spurs improved firepower than it does his decline. The Lakers, Cavs, Magic and Celtics all "get away" with more single teams on Duncan. You know less than you think and are often given credit for and because I expose that, you take issue with me. You're not used to people not bowing down to you.

    Dampier is probably not a top ten post defender and even if he was, who cares? Just being big isn't enough. The stats don't lie, Duncan has annihilated Dampier in the past. You have this foolish idea that if someone is big and strong enough, that that means they can automatically guard Duncan. That's why I made the comparison with Ginobili and listed similar sized players, asking you does this automatically means they can guard him. Even though you didn't answer, the answer, of course, is no.

    I agree, the Spurs don't have to rely solely on Duncan. But at the same time the Spurs can't under-utilize him just because the Mavs have two big centers, one of which he's historically owned.

    I watch tons of basketball, maybe you should watch more because I'm less than impressed with your knowledge.

    They force Duncan into awkward positions because the Spurs often play smalls on Nowitzki and that forces Duncan to help frequently, which puts the Spurs in rotation/scramble mode. This would happen in any comparable scenario. Look at that Trail Blazers game where Jefferson guarded Aldridge down the stretch.

  2. #102
    Mr. Dignity Solid D's Avatar
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    The Lakers, Cavs, Magic and Celtics all "get away" with more single teams on Duncan. You know less than you think and are often given credit for and because I expose that, you take issue with me. You're not used to people not bowing down to you.
    Three of the four teams you listed play the Spurs only twice/year. Define more.

  3. #103
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    What do you think I meant by more? When they play, obviously. Not how much they play and I presumed timvp meant it that way as well.

  4. #104
    Veteran AFBlue's Avatar
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    An assumption, by definition, cannot be fact.
    This is exactly my point. When you say "With Hill being out for game 1, I am really concerned" it appears as fact, when it was in fact an assumption. And the reason this continues is because I haven't reached my limit for pointless argument today.

    You could just give up though if you'd like.

  5. #105
    Mr. Dignity Solid D's Avatar
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    TD 21, I would think you mean single-teams per game but I don't think there are any published stats for this to corraborate an argument either way. It's more of an objective opinion based upon observation and recall from both of you. I think the Spurs' ability win will not be founded on whether Duncan is doubled or played man-to-man. I think the Spurs success will come at the other end of the floor.

    An example would be found in a game played in San Antonio between these 2 teams earlier in the season. The Spurs shot 53% from the floor, Duncan went for 31 and 12. Parker had 21 and 6. Ginobili had 12 and 7. Jefferson tallied 15. They had a 10 point lead going into the 4th quarter. They just gave up 2nd chance points and couldn't stay with Nowitzki and Terry as the Mavs sailed past the Spurs.

  6. #106
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    No, you must not check very often. Duncan has historically destroyed Dampier.
    Really? In their last 32 matchups, Duncan averaged 22.5 points on 49% shooting in nearly 40 minutes per game. Not quite "destroyed".

    And how many teams consistently double Duncan now? Not many.
    Almost all teams throw some sort of double-team on Duncan if Duncan gets going. The Mavs rarely do. The only other team who stubbornly doesn't double TD is Houston ... but they were even forced to change that tactic this season a couple of times.

    That has more to do with the Spurs improved firepower than it does his decline.
    I wish that were true. Who exactly was the "improved firepower" early this season when Manu and TP were bad and everyone else was below average? Teams used to be forced to double off of David Robinson in hopes of slowing down Duncan.

    Duncan is still damn good but to pretend he's still in his prime would be dishonest.

    You know less than you think and are often given credit for and because I expose that, you take issue with me. You're not used to people not bowing down to you.
    What exactly have you "exposed"?

    Dampier is probably not a top ten post defender and even if he was, who cares?
    WTF? Dampier's defensive ability should be noted when the Spurs are about to face the Mavs in the playoffs.

    Just being big isn't enough.
    Who said it was?

    The stats don't lie, Duncan has annihilated Dampier in the past.


    You have this foolish idea that if someone is big and strong enough, that that means they can automatically guard Duncan.
    WTF? When have I ever said that?

    They force Duncan into awkward positions because the Spurs often play smalls on Nowitzki and that forces Duncan to help frequently, which puts the Spurs in rotation/scramble mode. This would happen in any comparable scenario. Look at that Trail Blazers game where Jefferson guarded Aldridge down the stretch.
    Duncan isn't usually the player the Spurs send to double on Dirk. Duncan is often forced to rotate to cover the player who is doubling.

  7. #107
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    TD 21, I would think you mean single-teams per game but I don't think there are any published stats for this to corraborate an argument either way. It's more of an objective opinion based upon observation and recall from both of you. I think the Spurs' ability win will not be founded on whether Duncan is doubled or played man-to-man. I think the Spurs success will come at the other end of the floor.

    An example would be found in a game played in San Antonio between these 2 teams earlier in the season. The Spurs shot 53% from the floor, Duncan went for 31 and 12. Parker had 21 and 6. Ginobili had 12 and 7. Jefferson tallied 15. They had a 10 point lead going into the 4th quarter. They just gave up 2nd chance points and couldn't stay with Nowitzki and Terry as the Mavs sailed past the Spurs.
    Yeah, that Terry/Dirk pick-and-roll down the stretch is deadly. If the Spurs can somehow slow down the effectiveness of that play, they should be okay.

  8. #108
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Speaking of Dampier, part of his success against Duncan is he holds him all the time off the ball. On the offensive end, he'll hold Duncan for a second before he goes out to set a screen. He'll also hold him when Duncan is trying to crash the boards.

    On defense, Dampier's holding is even more damaging. He holds Duncan when Duncan is attempting to cover the rim. The small delay from the hold keeps Duncan from getting good position and leads to fouls.

    Whenever Duncan goes against Dampier, watch for Duncan complaining about being held. It'll happen about a half dozen times per game. Dampier will sometimes get caught ... but not often.

    The Dampier holding is the reason why I hope that Haywood plays more even though Haywood is better than Dampier.

  9. #109
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    TD 21, I would think you mean single-teams per game but I don't think there are any published stats for this to corraborate an argument either way. It's more of an objective opinion based upon observation and recall from both of you. I think the Spurs' ability win will not be founded on whether Duncan is doubled or played man-to-man. I think the Spurs success will come at the other end of the floor.

    An example would be found in a game played in San Antonio between these 2 teams earlier in the season. The Spurs shot 53% from the floor, Duncan went for 31 and 12. Parker had 21 and 6. Ginobili had 12 and 7. Jefferson tallied 15. They had a 10 point lead going into the 4th quarter. They just gave up 2nd chance points and couldn't stay with Nowitzki and Terry as the Mavs sailed past the Spurs.

    Corroborate, not corraborate. You're right, there are no published stats for this and it's not like I sit there (and I doubt timvp or anyone does) with a paper and pencil tallying how many times Duncan get's doubled, it's just logic based on personnel. Yeah, last meeting the Lakers doubled Duncan down the stretch because he completely overpowered Gasol on the block. Generally speaking, Jackson hates doubling to begin with and often doesn't have to because of the presence of Bynum. The Celtics have Perkins and Wallace. The Cavs have O'Neal and Ilgauskas and the Magic have Howard and Gortat.

    I agree, the Spurs ability to win isn't based on how frequently Duncan is doubled and neither of us have said that. Timvp is the poster boy for a Spurs fan who overrated and exaggerates the Mavs strengths. They gave up second chance points, exactly and why? Because too often they play smalls on Nowitzki. If they stay with McDyess and don't double frequently, they can protect their own backboard.

    Really? In their last 32 matchups, Duncan averaged 22.5 points on 49% shooting in nearly 40 minutes per game. Not quite "destroyed".

    Almost all teams throw some sort of double-team on Duncan if Duncan gets going. The Mavs rarely do. The only other team who stubbornly doesn't double TD is Houston ... but they were even forced to change that tactic this season a couple of times.



    I wish that were true. Who exactly was the "improved firepower" early this season when Manu and TP were bad and everyone else was below average? Teams used to be forced to double off of David Robinson in hopes of slowing down Duncan.

    Duncan is still damn good but to pretend he's still in his prime would be dishonest.

    What exactly have you "exposed"?

    WTF? Dampier's defensive ability should be noted when the Spurs are about to face the Mavs in the playoffs.

    Who said it was?



    WTF? When have I ever said that?

    Duncan isn't usually the player the Spurs send to double on Dirk. Duncan is often forced to rotate to cover the player who is doubling.
    He's had plenty of games in the 30's against the Mavs since the great Dampier got there. That stretch is roughly past five seasons right? Duncan's basically been a 19 ppg scorer in that stretch, yet he jumps to 22.5 ppg against the Mavs. Increased minutes or not, that's significant.

    I said how many consistently double Duncan anymore; I didn't say most don't ever. Learn to read.

    So you're saying the Spurs don't have more firepower than they've had in the past? Because almost every statistical indicator suggests otherwise. Where did I pretend Duncan was still in his prime? You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I said teams not doubling as frequently as they used to is more based on improved firepower surrounding him than his decline. But I never said he isn't in decline.

    I've exposed the fact that you're arrogant, not nearly as knowledgeable as you think and can't take an ounce of criticism.

    Again, I never said Dampier's defensive ability shouldn't be noted, but Duncan has been very successful against him, so it's not all that relevant. You act like the Spurs should go away from Duncan because the Mavs have two big centers.

    You may not have said it directly, but you certainly inferred it.

    What did I just say? The Spurs are forced into rotation/scramble mode, at times the rim is left unprotected. The point is the rebounding disparity is largely based on the Spurs playing small. You don't think that if the Spurs play McDyess extended minutes on Nowitzki and don't double frequently, that they couldn't protect their own backboard just fine? I'll take Duncan-McDyess over Haywood/Nowitzki on the boards.

  10. #110
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    The point is the rebounding disparity is largely based on the Spurs playing small. You don't think that if the Spurs play McDyess extended minutes on Nowitzki and don't double frequently, that they couldn't protect their own backboard just fine? I'll take Duncan-McDyess over Haywood/Nowitzki on the boards.
    Agreed completely. Second chance points and free throws have haunted the Spurs against the Mavericks.

    Going small will only compound both issues for the reasons I stated in another thread.

    I was discussing this very issue with a couple of buddies of mine.

    I brought it to the attention that McDyess is a VERY underrated factor this series. For these reasons...

    -This Mavs team is different than in the past. If Spurs elect to go small and use Jefferson on the kraut, then that leaves us more vulnerable in the rebound department. The Mavs have above average rebounding at every position from Kidd at PG, Butler at SG, Marion at SF, Haywood and Damp at C. We don't need to compound that negative aspect by playing small when our wings outside of Jefferson are all undersized. We need to limit the Mavs to one shot per possession as much as possible.

    Another point I want to bring up, is something that I quite don't understand. Whenever a team's go to guy gets the whistle as much as Dirk, why do the Spurs choose to go small? Playing a smaller defender on Dirk only makes the defender have to crowd him and play more physical because of the defender being undersized. Which makes it easier for Dirk to create separation by employing his erray of moves from the triple threat position from jab steps and pump fakes, which consequently makes it easier to draw fouls due to the crowding and the quick reflexes necessary to contest.

    Wouldn't you rather play a big man like McDyess on Dirk and play the drive( then closing out quick once he picks up his dribble for the jump-shot* This is when Mavs have Dirk iso at the top of the key*)? Me personally I would much rather Dirk take semi-contested 15-20 footers than going to the line 18 times a game.

    Same theory when Dirk is on the block or with his back to the basket 5-12 feet out. Why play small? When your going to have to double and often leave the basket and the lane often occupied by your smallest and least threatening defenders? This is when second chance opportunities and cuts to the basket by the opposition from the weak side destroy the Spurs.

    Not to mention smaller defenders are going to be more susceptible to fouling Dirk because they are undersized by length and strength. This is another way getting Dirk to the line when Dirk tries to establish his inside game.

    McDyess' value is huge this series. IMO

  11. #111
    Mr. Dignity Solid D's Avatar
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    Corroborate, not corraborate.
    Thank you. Exactly.

  12. #112
    uups stups! Cant_Be_Faded's Avatar
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    Speaking of Dampier, part of his success against Duncan is he holds him all the time off the ball. On the offensive end, he'll hold Duncan for a second before he goes out to set a screen. He'll also hold him when Duncan is trying to crash the boards.

    On defense, Dampier's holding is even more damaging. He holds Duncan when Duncan is attempting to cover the rim. The small delay from the hold keeps Duncan from getting good position and leads to fouls.

    Whenever Duncan goes against Dampier, watch for Duncan complaining about being held. It'll happen about a half dozen times per game. Dampier will sometimes get caught ... but not often.

    The Dampier holding is the reason why I hope that Haywood plays more even though Haywood is better than Dampier.

    Why wouldn't Carlisle just tell Haywood to hold Duncan, too?

  13. #113
    George Hill: 2-Guard NewJerSpur's Avatar
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    I'm just glad we're relatively healthy this time around going into the playoffs....seems like forever and a day (more like 2 years) since that hasn't been the most prevailing question mark approaching Game 1 of the opening series, though we're all obviously holding our breadth with regard to Hill's ankle. Having Parker in the second unit should help keep us out of those offesnive scoring droughts.

  14. #114
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    4. Make Dirk Work
    ....The coaching staff is going to have to be inventive with gimmicky schemes to overcome the gaping hole in the personnel.

    3. Pop and Common Sense
    In 2006 and 2009, Pop made glaring mistakes in the playoffs against the Mavs. Too much small ball doomed the Spurs in 2006; Pop overreacted to the mismatches and had the Spurs playing a then uncharted brand of basketball. Last postseason, Pop inexplicably buried Hill on the bench to begin the series. Additionally, Pop's rotations neglected the defensive end of the court until it was too late.

    The teams are too evenly matched for Pop to author another blunder and the Spurs come out on top. Rather than trying to be the hero, Pop needs to rely on common sense. Don't try to fit a square peg (a struggling player) into a round hole (playing time). Don't overreact to matchups that don't favor the Spurs (See: Nowitzki, Dirk). Don't be afraid to play those who have performed well all season (See: Blair, DeJuan). In other words, don't out-think things.

    2. Rebounding
    .. the coaching staff must resist small ball as much as possible, find minutes for Blair and urge each and every player to gang rebound. (By the way, if Jefferson is searching for an area where he can most help, rebounding is the answer.)

    1. Manu Ginobili
    the play of Manu Ginobili.
    timvp notice how 3 of your top 4 involve Pop? (and staff if they truly have any say, which we doubt).
    I'd rather Lord Poppy be kidnapped for a month then hope he will do what's best for the team but here we go.....

    Manu. Averaging 25/7/6 for 7 games i do not think is gonna happen but i do agree he's gotta do it for 3-4 wins minimal to win the series. In 2008 Barrdog filled in admirably for injured GNob (sans the failure to shot attempt the game ender and would-be game winner vs Derek Swisher), but this year there is no true fill in for GNob. Unless Mase just astounds and am not going to bank on that.

  15. #115
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    Defending the high screen and roll will be the key imho. The Spurs have struggled with that the past few years.

  16. #116
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    What's been pissing me off among other things is the free throw percentage. It's been awful...we really need to step up and concentrate on the foul line.

  17. #117
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    If Manu can play well then all the team is a better team, Manu don't need to score on every match to win the game.

  18. #118
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    A combination of Manu beasting, role players stepping up, Timmy and TP being themselves and above all rebounding the ball and playing Spurs caliber D. Could do the trick against the Mavs.

  19. #119
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  20. #120
    Veteran kace's Avatar
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    i won't go in the debate between timvp and TD21, but still i think TD21 is quite right when he says he thinks that tim role shouldn't be "underrated".

    i mean in the 10 keys, you've got TP at n°9, and TD at n°8 when Manu is a "clear" n°1 for timvp.

    i think that's just a classic overreaction about manu.

    Having the super manu we had lately is just huge. no doubt. and i hope we'll see this manu for all the serie and PO.

    but this team is still about the big three on offense (and of course a big team defense). so, tp and tim at 9 and 8 and manu at n°1 is kind of excessive IMHO.

  21. #121
    Ruffy RuffnReadyOzStyle's Avatar
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    Thanks, LJ, great summary.

    6. and 3. worry me most - our transition defence this year has been a level below any time in the past decade, and I'm concerned that Pop might suc b to his benophobia and do something stupid like sit Grizzly. He needs to have a big series keeping Haywood/Dampier busy.

    It really feels like Manu time to me, and if he goes for 25/5 that'll go along way to winning the series, all other things being equal.

    It's also a weird feeling to go into a series with question marks over both Tony and Tim, although the way Timmy always steps up for the real season means there's less of a question about him.

    Should be a fascinating series.

  22. #122
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    Speaking of Dampier, part of his success against Duncan is he holds him all the time off the ball. On the offensive end, he'll hold Duncan for a second before he goes out to set a screen. He'll also hold him when Duncan is trying to crash the boards.

    On defense, Dampier's holding is even more damaging. He holds Duncan when Duncan is attempting to cover the rim. The small delay from the hold keeps Duncan from getting good position and leads to fouls.

    Whenever Duncan goes against Dampier, watch for Duncan complaining about being held. It'll happen about a half dozen times per game. Dampier will sometimes get caught ... but not often.

    The Dampier holding is the reason why I hope that Haywood plays more even though Haywood is better than Dampier.
    man uhh, guess what is the weakest line with the Mavs? their perimeter defense. umm... so I think it would be a waste of Duncan's all-round skills if he's only used head-2-head against Dampier in offense. ahh, man the Spurs play team ball and that is what won them 4 championships. ehhh, in contrast, the Mavs pay much more money but haven't reaped anything worth the money paid, and they never brewed good chemistry which is one necessary factor for a championship contender.

    uhh, I mean Spurs just need to play p&r at perimeter every chance they get, then the Mavs are killed on their side of court. as to the defensive end, Spurs just need to hold those sofe asses outside of the 3-sec zone then the Mavs will have to bet their lives on luck by jump shooting.

    uhhh, if i remember correctly, the Spurs were convincingly deluged by Mavs in paint in the previous match ups between the two teams, in which it was always the spurs than ended as the loser. Man bonner doesn't have the shape to play near the basket. If the Spurs want to win the series they will have to give more minutes to tougher dudes like Blair, McDyess, etc., with the paint well controlled it should be easy for Spurs to cut off Mavs supply of offensive rebounds, which crank out about 10pts/game for them on season's average.

  23. #123
    Fuck Stern sefant77's Avatar
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    man uhh, guess what is the weakest line with the Mavs? their perimeter defense. umm... so I think it would be a waste of Duncan's all-round skills if he's only used head-2-head against Dampier in offense. ahh, man the Spurs play team ball and that is what won them 4 championships. ehhh, in contrast, the Mavs pay much more money but haven't reaped anything worth the money paid, and they never brewed good chemistry which is one necessary factor for a championship contender.
    Caught the guy that didnt watch the Mavs this season.

  24. #124
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Game 1:

    10. George Hill's Health
    Fail. Hill was ineffective in his 18 minutes.

    9. Tony Parker vs. Jason Terry
    Pass. TP had 18 points and four assists while Jason Terry had five points.

    8. Tim Duncan and Foul Trouble
    Pass. Tim Duncan played well and was never in foul trouble.

    7. Shooters Stepping Up
    Fail. No shooter stepped up.

    6. Transition Defense
    Fail. Mostly due to turnovers, the Spurs struggled to set their defense.

    5. Limiting Turnovers
    Fail. The Spurs turned it over 17 times.

    4. Make Dirk Work
    Fail. Dirk did whatever he wanted on his way to 36 points on 14 shots.

    3. Pop and Common Sense
    Fail. Too much small ball. Too much RMJ and Bogans. Not enough Blair.

    2. Rebounding
    Fail. Spurs got out-rebounded 45-37. The Mavs have now outrebounded the Spurs in 12 of the last 13 playoff games between the two teams.

    1. Manu Ginobili
    Pass. He played well. Sloppy yet good.



    The Spurs failed 7 of 10. The only three they passed involved the Big 3

  25. #125
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    What about them?

    The dogs

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