It wouldn't be moot if all the Spurs needed to give up was a 1st round pick.
well to be honest, RJ is probably gay...and you would be too, if you were able to sign a multi million dollar contract for a legit contender and play with 2-3 future HOFers and a future HOF coach. plus he gets to live in such a low key city, where he can come and go as he pleases without being hassled by the masses at every turn. Yep, RJ is as gay as a beastly looking fellow who scores a swimsuit model girlfriend. You just cannot measure that kind of gayness.
I rather wait a little to see how good Anderson is before throwing away a lot of money and a great asset to get Chandler.
If Chandler gets more than RJ, then you can bump this post and we can discuss it some more.
For Parker's contract, you get Parker in his prime, and signing him is a foregone conclusion; there's no way you DON'T sign Parker if you have an opportunity. The Spurs spent more money on RJ to have him for three extra years rather than have him as an expiring this season and they still don't know if he can be effective with this team. So the difference between the two contracts is huge.
It doesn't matter how good Anderson is or will be, he's likely NOT going to transform himself into an above-average defender - which Chandler most certainly is.
Normally, I would agree with your point about taking a wait-and-see approach. However, we know the Spurs are playing for THIS year.
I've been a strong advocate of retaining assets, like 1st round picks -especially when you're burning them for older players. Because of their perennial draft position, the Spurs have not been able secure a talented SF-type in the past few drafts, dating back to the Batum miss. If they can get a young, athletic, SF now, and all it would cost is next year's 1st, count me in.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...chandwi01.html
Wilson Chandler - his best defensive rating in the last three years is 110 and above .. while RJ's worst in his entire career is 112 once and 110 once. Last year when he sucked his rating was 106.
Not saying RJ is good, but WC sucks.
How would that possibly be all they needed to give up?
Sobering info.
12 pages on Wilson Chandler
It's a strange mania that strikes spurfan when presented with the possibility of acquiring a player 6'7" or taller. The NBA player is always a better defender when he is on another team.
Ain't that the truth.
Pop and RC are both on record as indicating how the Spurs have needed to "get better" defensively at that position. When a team is as poor defensively on the perimeter and woefully "unathletic" as the Spurs have been at that spot, it's easy to understand the fascination with a young, athletic, SF.
fwiw, Brandon Rush has fallen out of the Pacer rotation
On a related note, the Pacers are reported by their beat guy to be trying to dump a two for one to get the roster to 15, speculation amongst the fans is that it's to keep Magnum Rolle. The two reported to be offered around the league are Dahntay Jones and Solomon Jones. Obviously neither of those two are worthwhile with DJ being a zero-threat from long range."We have three guys -- Mike, Danny and Paul -- who are our top three guys at the wing spots," O'Brien said. "Unless something happens, he's going to have to find a way to move above those three guys in order to get the type of playing time he got in the past."
But if Rush is out and they want to trim the roster?
Rush if extended before the end of October wouldn't be a one-year rental. And he can stick the 3. And likes to party.
It's also easy to understand how such a player can be automatically overrated here as well.
Okay, I looked it up.
Unsurprisingly, Chandler's been on terrible defensive teams. The Knicks as a team have had DRtgs the past three seasons as 4th worst last year, 8th worst in 09, and 2nd worst in 08 as a rookie.
RJ's teams the last 5 years have been going backwards 8th, 15th, 20th, 15th, and 3rd. As an aside, the Spurs starting in 06 until last year were 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th (1st year without Bowen as the main guy) and 8th.
And a further look at the numbers:
Chandler's rating each of the last 3 years has been worse than his team's in 10, but slightly better than his team's rating in 09 and 08.
RJ's rating each of the last 5 years has been worse than his team's rating.
What are we to make of that?
What would RJ's rating be on these Knicks teams?
EDIT : fixed the numbers, got WC's 10-stats wrong.
EDIT 2 : Mixed up Bowen's retirement with his demotion by Pop
Last edited by objective; 10-15-2010 at 07:00 PM.
Touche'
Point taken.
The Spurs were 2 points better defensively with Jefferson on the floor last year..he obviously benefited from spending time with the best Spurs lineups for most of the season..
The Knicks were 5 points worse defensively with Chandler off the floor, which was #1 on their team, better than Jeffries, the player with the best defensive reputation on the team..
Using defensive ratings to compare perimeter defenders when their teams are levels apart defensively doesn't make any sense..defensive rating is a team stat more than any other advanced stat..
I have the scouting stats that show Chandler is a better defender, I'll post them when I get home..
I would rather trade Jerrells+Temple+Gee for Rush than the same package and a first round pick for Chandler.
If Spurs do some creative financing than can do this trade for Rush without going over the tax.
ok but what about defensive win shares? W chandler is down in that as well (same link). I knew the bad team argument would pop up. But honestly based on all this, again, im not saying RJ is good, all im saying is WC is not really battier or bowen or even close. So assuming WC is better than RJ, on offense he is not really a knock down shooter and i would still say RJ is hte better offensive player (@ driving and one on one situations). We need a really good Defensive wing player with size and i just feel WC is not that person.
Why should we "settle" for more or less the same RJ (ill even grant slightly better on D and slightly worse on O). I would rather get it right this time, and find a true fit, else change the game plan.
With his repeated off court problem (I know Chandler got caught once, too), I doubt the Spurs would trade for Rush. At least at this juncture.
Why would the Pacers make that trade? I understand he's somewhat fallen out of favor or worn out his welcome and they have a glut of wings, but he's still young, is a decent player and is inexpensive. Why trade him for three fringe players? Let's face it, it would likely take the 1st round pick to get it done.
If the Spurs view him or someone in that class (Chandler, etc.) as the potential missing piece and as a useful piece going forward, then they should surrender their 1st. This team has four young, talented players now, they'd be acquiring a fifth in the trade and right now, it's more important to improve their chances at winning one last championship in the Duncan era, then holding out hope of landing a decent prospect picking 20-25. People get so caught up in 1st round picks a lot of the time, but in reality, picking where the Spurs are likely to be picking, you're just hoping to get a player like Chandler or Rush. Only, they've already got some experience and don't need to be developed as much.
re: the bolded parts
You posted that WC sucked. I looked at your numbers, dug marginally deeper, and came away completely unconvinced by your own stats, as opposed to finding them sobering.
RJ has played with . . .
A. Better defensive players, especially in the post having his back and even on the wing. Tim Duncan's DRtg numbers are amazing. Andrew Bogut for MIL last year, without even having to look up his numbers, was a good defensive center. Manu Ginobili, statistically by DRtg, I believe was just as good or even better than Bowen.
Who was out there having Chandler's back? David Lee and Danilo Galinari?
B. RJ has had defensive minded coaches who had systems. Pop, Skiles, Frank.
Chandler spent the last two years with D'Antoni. What was he supposed to do?
So no, I don't think anyone is arguing that Chandler is Bowen or Battier.
But is it really such a stretch to think he's an upgrade over RJ defensively?
Shouldn't the Spurs want an upgrade option?
He's not much of an improvement over RJ in the 3pt department, though he's looked good in the games I've watched this pre-season. But unlike RJ, he can play the 4, something RJ either can't or won't, as evidenced by the stories last year about RJ being removed from the role of smallball 4.
I've posted most recently on Chandler that I didn't think it was realistic because he'd be a one year rental, as the Spurs likely wouldn't/couldn't fork out the money to keep him.
But today I was recalling how they dumped 1 first round pick for what at the time was a 1/2 year rental of Kurt Thomas because they were in the desperate 'win now' mode.
Maybe that could happen again?
EDIT: confused the # of picks of the Thomas trade for the Nazr trade, fixed it to only 1 first rounder
Last edited by objective; 10-15-2010 at 07:21 PM.
As for why the Pacers would dump Rush, I don't know. Right now in the media the only player they're trying to dump is Dahntay Jones (I'm not even counting Solomon Jones who is just a fringe roster guy).
Dahntay Jones is more unmovable than Rush with his longer contract, and he hasn't caused Larry Bird any headaches.
Rush has no future in Indiana. Not that they're really keen to keep Dunleavy, but Paul George is the future and Fightin' Lance Stephenson was their most promising, exciting summer leaguer and 2nd round pick until he had to act like Lance Stephenson.
Brandon Rush getting suspended for the 5 games isn't his first offense, I think it's the third time he's been popped. He's not a good enough player for them to jerk around with him.
Getting a first for Rush might be the best they can do.
Not that I'm saying they will dump Rush, I don't even expect them to.
But he's in his coaches doghouse, his GM's doghouse, behind other young players in the rotation, and they've so far refused to decide to pick up his option, unlike their beloved Hibbert.
From Rush to Jones, then drafting George. Honestly, I never understood why the Pacers loaded up on some many wings.
I should add, regarding Brandon Rush and the doghouse he's in:
In the article I linked to, Jim O'Brien says that not only is he not in the rotation, but that O'Brien isn't even going to play him in the remaining pre-season games because there's no point in giving him minutes when he's going to be suspended anyway.
Now that's some doghouse. He's only going to be out 5 games, why effectively suspend him for the rest of the pre-season? Wouldn't you want to see his effort and commitment to finish the pre-season?
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