Page 122 of 161 FirstFirst ... 2272112118119120121122123124125126132 ... LastLast
Results 3,026 to 3,050 of 4001
  1. #3026
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    I will be citing the Bible in this work. They did some great work about the great flood in there.
    Only because the Sons of God saw that the Daughters of man were beautiful.
    Wild Cobra is offline

  2. #3027
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    41,654


    I was reading Darrin's post until it came up with a 15 year temp record. Same old , different day.
    Then you missed




    When looking at the historic temperature record, skeptics today tend to focus more on the fact that temperatures have leveled off over the last 10-15 years. Both sides of the debate play annoying games with cherry-picked end-points and graph scales to try to support their arguments, but most reasonable people look at the graph above of the last 15 years and will agree temperatures have been relatively flat. Even more important for scientists (since the oceans are a much larger heat reservoir than the atmosphere) is the fact that the new ARGO floating temperature stations have measured little or no increase in ocean heat content since they were put in service in 2003.

    These facts actually lead to one of my favorite examples of the two sides in the debate talking past each other (this example actually played out in the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal over the past several weeks). Skeptics will say, “temperatures have been flat for 10-15 years.” Global warming advocates will respond, “the last decade has seen some of the hottest temperatures in the last 100 years.” Both statements are actually correct.
    DarrinS is offline

  3. #3028
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    41,654
    All insurers in all 50 states have to present their claims and actuarial data to the state in which they want to do business. Rates are determined on a per capita basis. they cannot just raise rates without justifying it to the insurance committee.
    Like I said, they may be using AGW to JUSTIFY raising rates, even though their increased property damage claims are simply due to more coastal property.

    I also think any data on hurricane/tornado frequency and intensity are suspect because we NOW have better technology to detect and measure these storms.
    DarrinS is offline

  4. #3029
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    25,372
    Well, Yonivore? Is that a reasonable skeptic's position?
    Yes.

    Now, which theory costs me the most money, right now?
    Yonivore is offline

  5. #3030
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,830
    Like I said, they may be using AGW to JUSTIFY raising rates, even though their increased property damage claims are simply due to more coastal property.

    I also think any data on hurricane/tornado frequency and intensity are suspect because we NOW have better technology to detect and measure these storms.
    Claims are claims and rates are determined on a policy by policy basis. If there is more property then there are going to be more insurance policies for said property. when they raise rates its because they are saying per policy claims are higher. Its also not going to see them pull out of the market because their bogus hikes are denied.

    And who gives a about the latter part? I know you are going to parrot your blog arguments but science not being able to properly measure the power of a storm that blew somone's house down 10 years ago does not mean he isn't going to put in a claim for it.

    Its interesting to see that when your stock arguments as told by your overlords do not fit you lack the critical thinking skills to think of anything else.

    Scientist are conspiracists and they couldn't measure storms properly. So must be insurers.

    This major industry is bad but the mining and energy industries, those guys we can trust.

    DIAF
    FuzzyLumpkins is offline

  6. #3031
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    41,654
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...lick=pm_latest


    Relates to some poll results Manny posted and defended earlier in this thread.

    And it sucks that Gavin Schmidt is on PM's Editorial Board of Advisers. Oh well, at least he gave some candid answers to these questions.


    Americans Connecting 2012's Extreme Weather to Climate Change
    Yesterday The New York Times covered a new poll showing that an increasing number of Americans are linking the extreme weather events of the past few years—including the extremely warm March 2012, droughts, and hurricanes—to climate change. We asked Gavin Schmidt, a climate researcher at NASA’s Goddard Ins ute and a member of PM’s Editorial Board of Advisers, why he thinks this shift is happening, and if it means that policy changes could be on the horizon.


    Q: What’s your first reaction to these polling numbers?


    A: I am not really surprised. Most people don’t have a very sophisticated grasp of what climate change is, which is completely understandable. But people do have a visceral connection to weather; they talk about it, understand it, and they’re very fond of extremes in weather (in a conversational way.)


    Q: What’s it like to see these recent extreme events as a climate scientist? You look at the long term, but it’s these short- and medium-term events that seem to be swaying the public.


    A: The psychology is that people know climate change is out there, and they’re trying to make it real to them. So you have a situation where there’s all this talk about climate change, and then seemingly weird things happen like a huge heat wave or a big snow dump, and I think people just naturally associate these things. They want to be able to see something that they can point to and say, "Ah, that’s what these people are talking about." We experience weather all the time. It’s harder to have a good grasp of what climate is.


    Q: Do you agree with the researchers’ "close to home" idea—that is, these extreme events are making climate change and its effects more real for Americans, who previously viewed it as something off in the future or something for other countries to worry about?


    A: Yes, this is a very normal psychological thing that we do — we see things and then we associate them. So when there’s a weird heat wave, like we had here in March, people will naturally gravitate toward thinking that’s what climate change looks like. It’s not that anybody’s telling them that, but these things just become associated.

    People can tell us general things, but we always look for specific things to make them more concrete. People are not being told the wrong thing; they’re just trying to make connections between the general and the specific.


    Q: The last few years have certainly felt strange, in an anecdotal sense. But is it possible to quantify how strange it’s actually been to have all these things together—warmest March ever, so many early tornadoes, droughts, etc.?


    A: We often talk about extreme weather events like they’re all one thing—that they’re all increasing or decreasing. But the physics of why you get a tornado or a drought or a hurricane are completely different, and the idea that they all are touched by climate change equally is very wrong.

    We’ve done more work in the last 10 years on how climate change gets expressed in weather extremes—as seen in the number of heat waves that are clearly increasing in number and intensity all over the world—and we expect this as we shift the mean toward warmer conditions. But when people talk about ice storms or a single hurricane—there the connection to climate change is much more tenuous. A lot of times the science hasn’t been done on any specific extreme, and because they’re all unique, we need to have more serious data. (we need to have more serious data -- I like that)


    Q: Do you think the public’s misunderstanding of weather versus climate is a good or bad thing?


    (this answer was a little revealing)
    A: Obviously as a scientist, you want the public to know as much as you do, but I think realistically that’s impossible. So . . . it’s not, "Oh my God, people are confused." It’s more about, "Does this provide an opening? Does this provide a way to talk about the science and have people get a better understanding of what’s going on?"

    And I think the answer is yes. These poll results provide an opportunity to talk about how climate science is related to weather extremes and where we’re going and where the difficulty is—this notion of science as a process. There are good things here, because whether or not people are convinced or agree or disagree on climate change, it opens up a space for communication.


    Q: There’s an interesting note in the Times story that public acceptance of climate change hit a high point just before the recession, then waned, but now is on the rise again. How big of a factor do you think the economy is in the public’s acceptance of climate change and particularly in moving climate policy forward?


    A: The question presumes that climate policy is predicated on the idea that individual people have to make individual sacrifices for climate change, which is not the case at all. The best climate policy is one that nobody notices. If we have to rely on everybody to think about every action they make, it will never happen, so any climate policy has to address the problem without having people think about it.


    Q: Do you think more weird weather events in the U.S. will continue to increase public acceptance of human-induced climate change?


    A: Probably, yes. If you look at some of the previous polling, the other big e when people felt climate change was happening was in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. And it wasn’t because scientists were telling them that Katrina was caused by climate change—it was just an obvious demonstration that we are vulnerable to weather events and therefore to climate change.
    DarrinS is offline

  7. #3032
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...lick=pm_latest


    Relates to some poll results Manny posted and defended earlier in this thread.

    And it sucks that Gavin Schmidt is on PM's Editorial Board of Advisers. Oh well, at least he gave some candid answers to these questions.
    Is Gavin actually starting to back down from his hysterical cries?

    Wow...
    Wild Cobra is offline

  8. #3033
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    50,681
    Yes.

    Now, which theory costs me the most money, right now?
    Doing nothing. Net Present Value of doing nothing far, far outweighs any costs of limiting CO2 emissions.

    The problem is those costs will not be readily apparent to you. They will be hidden in all the goods and services you buy, at every moment going forward from this day until you die.

    Those costs will continue to be borne by your kids and their kids, and by people in other countries who you have never met. Every year we wait, the cost of doing nothing goes up. You shift the costs of your standard of living to them.

    I guess if "right now, how does it affect me" is how you want to make your decisions, then I can't really argue with that, as myopic and immoral as it strikes me.

    "Doing nothing" represents, in a very real sense, a theft.
    RandomGuy is offline

  9. #3034
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117

    "Doing nothing" represents, in a very real sense, a theft.
    So you are convinced that CO2 is a serious threat.

    What about those of us who disagree?

    I'll tell you what. You and all your like minded buddies pay for it.
    Wild Cobra is offline

  10. #3035
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,830
    At least we have gotten to the point to where they admit they're cheap and selfish.

    lol conservative.
    FuzzyLumpkins is offline

  11. #3036
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    41,654
    Doing nothing. Net Present Value of doing nothing far, far outweighs any costs of limiting CO2 emissions.

    The problem is those costs will not be readily apparent to you. They will be hidden in all the goods and services you buy, at every moment going forward from this day until you die.

    Those costs will continue to be borne by your kids and their kids, and by people in other countries who you have never met. Every year we wait, the cost of doing nothing goes up. You shift the costs of your standard of living to them.

    I guess if "right now, how does it affect me" is how you want to make your decisions, then I can't really argue with that, as myopic and immoral as it strikes me.

    "Doing nothing" represents, in a very real sense, a theft.


    The envirochondriacs of California have done something -- ruin their economy.



    Joel Kotkin: The Great California Exodus A leading U.S. demographer and 'Truman Democrat' talks about what is driving the middle class out of the Golden State.

    'California is God's best moment," says Joel Kotkin. "It's the best place in the world to live." Or at least it used to be.

    Mr. Kotkin, one of the nation's premier demographers, left his native New York City in 1971 to enroll at the University of California, Berkeley. The state was a far-out paradise for hipsters who had grown up listening to the Mamas & the Papas' iconic "California Dreamin'" and the Beach Boys' "California Girls." But it also attracted young, ambitious people "who had a lot of dreams, wanted to build big companies." Think Intel, Apple and Hewlett-Packard.

    Now, however, the Golden State's fastest-growing en y is government and its biggest product is red tape. The first thing that comes to many American minds when you mention California isn't Hollywood or tanned girls on a beach, but Greece. Many progressives in California take that as a compliment since Greeks are ostensibly happier. But as Mr. Kotkin notes, Californians are increasingly pursuing happiness elsewhere.

    Nearly four million more people have left the Golden State in the last two decades than have come from other states. This is a sharp reversal from the 1980s, when 100,000 more Americans were settling in California each year than were leaving. According to Mr. Kotkin, most of those leaving are between the ages of 5 and 14 or 34 to 45. In other words, young families.

    The scruffy-looking urban studies professor at Chapman University in Orange, Calif., has been studying and writing on demographic and geographic trends for 30 years. Part of California's dysfunction, he says, stems from state and local government restrictions on development. These policies have artificially limited housing supply and put a premium on real estate in coastal regions.

    "Basically, if you don't own a piece of Facebook or Google and you haven't robbed a bank and don't have rich parents, then your chances of being able to buy a house or raise a family in the Bay Area or in most of coastal California is pretty weak," says Mr. Kotkin.

    While many middle-class families have moved inland, those regions don't have the same allure or amenities as the coast. People might as well move to Nevada or Texas, where housing and everything else is cheaper and there's no income tax.

    And things will only get worse in the coming years as Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown and his green cadre implement their "smart growth" plans to cram the proletariat into high-density housing. "What I find reprehensible beyond belief is that the people pushing [high-density housing] themselves live in single-family homes and often drive very fancy cars, but want everyone else to live like my grandmother did in Brownsville in Brooklyn in the 1920s," Mr. Kotkin declares.

    "The new regime"—his name for progressive apparatchiks who run California's government—"wants to destroy the essential reason why people move to California in order to protect their own lifestyles."

    Housing is merely one front of what he calls the "progressive war on the middle class." Another is the cap-and-trade law AB32, which will raise the cost of energy and drive out manufacturing jobs without making even a dent in global carbon emissions. Then there are the renewable portfolio standards, which mandate that a third of the state's energy come from renewable sources like wind and the sun by 2020. California's electricity prices are already 50% higher than the national average.

    Oh, and don't forget the $100 billion bullet train. Mr. Kotkin calls the runaway-cost train "classic California." "Where [Brown] with the state going bankrupt is even thinking about an expenditure like this is beyond comprehension. When the schools are falling apart, when the roads are falling apart, the bridges are unsafe, the state economy is in free fall. We're still doing much worse than the rest of the country, we've got this growing permanent welfare class, and high-speed rail is going to solve this?"

    Mr. Kotkin describes himself as an old-fashioned Truman Democrat. In fact, he voted for Mr. Brown—who previously served as governor, secretary of state and attorney general—because he believed Mr. Brown "was interesting and thought outside the box."

    But "Jerry's been a big disappointment," Mr. Kotkin says. "I've known Jerry for 35 years, and he's smart, but he just can't seem to be a paradigm breaker. And of course, it's because he really believes in this green stuff."

    In the governor's dreams, green jobs will replace all of the "tangible jobs" that the state's losing in agriculture, manufacturing, warehousing and construction. But "green energy doesn't create enough energy!" Mr. Kotkin exclaims. "And it drives up the price of energy, which then drives out other things." Notwithstanding all of the subsidies the state lavishes on renewables, green jobs only make up about 2% of California's private-sector work force—no more than they do in Texas.

    Of course, there are plenty of jobs to be had in energy, just not the type the new California regime wants. An estimated 25 billion barrels of oil are sitting untapped in the vast Monterey and Bakersfield shale deposits. "You see the great tragedy of California is that we have all this oil and gas, we won't use it," Mr. Kotkin says. "We have the richest farm land in the world, and we're trying to strangle it." He's referring to how water restrictions aimed at protecting the delta smelt fish are endangering Central Valley farmers.

    Meanwhile, taxes are harming the private economy. According to the Tax Foundation, California has the 48th-worst business tax climate. Its income tax is steeply progressive. Millionaires pay a top rate of 10.3%, the third-highest in the country. But middle-class workers—those who earn more than $48,000—pay a top rate of 9.3%, which is higher than what millionaires pay in 47 states.


    And Democrats want to raise taxes even more. Mind you, the November ballot initiative that Mr. Brown is spearheading would primarily hit those whom Democrats call "millionaires" (i.e., people who make more than $250,000 a year). Some Republicans have warned that it will cause a millionaire march out of the state, but Mr. Kotkin says that "people who are at the very high end of the food chain, they're still going to be in Napa. They're still going to be in Silicon Valley. They're still going to be in West L.A."

    That said, "It's really going to hit the small business owners and the young family that's trying to ac ulate enough to raise a family, maybe send their kids to private school. It'll kick them in the teeth."

    A worker in Wichita might not consider those earning $250,000 a year middle class, but "if you're a guy working for a Silicon Valley company and you're married and you're thinking about having your first kid, and your family makes 250-k a year, you can't buy a closet in the Bay Area," Mr. Kotkin says. "But for 250-k a year, you can live pretty damn well in Salt Lake City. And you might be able to send your kids to public schools and own a three-bedroom, four-bath house."

    According to Mr. Kotkin, these upwardly mobile families are fleeing in droves. As a result, California is turning into a two-and-a-half-class society. On top are the "entrenched in bents" who inherited their wealth or came to California early and made their money. Then there's a shrunken middle class of public employees and, miles below, a permanent welfare class. As it stands today, about 40% of Californians don't pay any income tax and a quarter are on Medicaid.

    It's "a very scary political dynamic," he says. "One day somebody's going to put on the ballot, let's take every penny over $100,000 a year, and you'll get it through because there's no real restraint. What you've done by exempting people from paying taxes is that they feel no responsibility. That's certainly a big part of it.

    And the welfare recipients, he emphasizes, "aren't leaving. Why would they? They get much better benefits in California or New York than if they go to Texas. In Texas the expectation is that people work."

    California used to be more like Texas—a jobs magnet. What happened? For one, says the demographer, Californians are now voting more based on social issues and less on fiscal ones than they did when Ronald Reagan was governor 40 years ago. Environmentalists are also more powerful than they used to be. And Mr. Brown facilitated the public-union takeover of the statehouse by allowing state workers to collectively bargain during his first stint as governor in 1977.

    Mr. Kotkin also notes that demographic changes are playing a role. As progressive policies drive out moderate and conservative members of the middle class, California's politics become even more left-wing. It's a classic case of natural selection, and increasingly the only ones fit to survive in California are the very rich and those who rely on government spending. In a nuts , "the state is run for the very rich, the very poor, and the public employees."

    So if California's no longer the Golden land of opportunity for middle-class dreamers, what is?

    Mr. Kotkin lists four "growth corridors": the Gulf Coast, the Great Plains, the Intermountain West, and the Southeast. All of these regions have lower costs of living, lower taxes, relatively relaxed regulatory environments, and critical natural resources such as oil and natural gas.

    Take Salt Lake City. "Almost all of the major tech companies have moved stuff to Salt Lake City." That includes Twitter, Adobe, eBay and Oracle.

    Then there's Texas, which is on a mission to steal California's tech hegemony. Apple just announced that it's building a $304 million campus and adding 3,600 jobs in Austin. Facebook established operations there last year, and eBay plans to add 1,000 new jobs there too.


    Even Hollywood is doing more of its filming on the Gulf Coast. "New Orleans is supposedly going to pass New York as the second-largest film center. They have great incentives, and New Orleans is the best bargain for urban living in the United States. It's got great food, great music, and it's inexpensive."

    What about the Midwest and the Rust Belt? Can they recover from their manufacturing losses?

    "What those areas have is they've got a good work ethic," Mr. Kotkin says. "There's an established skill base for industry. They're very affordable, and they've got some nice places to live. Indianapolis has become a very nice city." He concedes that such places will have a hard time eclipsing California or Texas because they're not as well endowed by nature. But as the Golden State is proving, natural endowments do not guarantee permanent prosperity.
    DarrinS is offline

  12. #3037
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,830
    That article talked about people not being able to afford housing and then concludes that its social and environmental issues driving thejob exodus. Talk about a knockoff of a partisan nonsequitor.

    I sure that the CA food stamps program is just jacking up those housing prices in San Jose....

    What are the relative tax rates in CA? To national averages?
    FuzzyLumpkins is offline

  13. #3038
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    41,654
    'Gaia' scientist James Lovelock: I was 'alarmist' about climate change

    http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news...climate-change


    By Ian Johnston, msnbc.com

    James Lovelock, the maverick scientist who became a guru to the environmental movement with his “Gaia” theory of the Earth as a single organism, has admitted to being “alarmist” about climate change and says other environmental commentators, such as Al Gore, were too.

    Lovelock, 92, is writing a new book in which he will say climate change is still happening, but not as quickly as he once feared.

    He previously painted some of the direst visions of the effects of climate change. In 2006, in an article in the U.K.’s Independent newspaper, he wrote that “before this century is over billions of us will die and the few breeding pairs of people that survive will be in the Arctic where the climate remains tolerable.”

    However, the professor admitted in a telephone interview with msnbc.com that he now thinks he had been “extrapolating too far."

    The new book, due to be published next year, will be the third in a trilogy, following his earlier works, “Revenge of Gaia: Why the Earth Is Fighting Back – and How We Can Still Save Humanity,” and “The Vanishing Face of Gaia: A Final Warning: Enjoy It While You Can.”

    The new book will discuss how humanity can change the way it acts in order to help regulate the Earth’s natural systems, performing a role similar to the harmonious one played by plants when they absorb carbon dioxide and produce oxygen.

    Climate's 'usual tricks'
    It will also reflect his new opinion that global warming has not occurred as he had expected.

    “The problem is we don’t know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago. That led to some alarmist books – mine included – because it looked clear-cut, but it hasn’t happened,” Lovelock said.

    “The climate is doing its usual tricks. There’s nothing much really happening yet. We were supposed to be halfway toward a frying world now,” he said.

    “The world has not warmed up very much since the millennium. Twelve years is a reasonable time… it (the temperature) has stayed almost constant, whereas it should have been rising -- carbon dioxide is rising, no question about that,” he added.

    He pointed to Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth” and Tim Flannery’s “The Weather Makers” as other examples of “alarmist” forecasts of the future.

    In 2007, Time magazine named Lovelock as one of 13 leaders and visionaries in an article on “Heroes of the Environment,” which also included Gore, Mikhail Gorbachev and Robert Redford.

    “Jim Lovelock has no university, no research ins ute, no students. His almost unparalleled influence in environmental science is based instead on a particular way of seeing things,” Oliver Morton, of the journal Nature wrote in Time. “Humble, stubborn, charming, visionary, proud and generous, his ideas about Gaia have started a change in the conception of biology that may serve as a vital complement to the revolution that brought us the structures of DNA and proteins and the genetic code.”

    NYT: Most tie extreme weather to global warming, poll finds

    Lovelock also won the U.K.’s Geological Society’s Wollaston Medal in 2006. In a posting on its website, the society said it was “rare to be able to say that the recipient has opened up a whole new field of Earth science study” – referring to the Gaia theory of the planet as single complex system.

    However Lovelock, who works alone at his home in Devon, England, has fallen out with the green movement in the past, particularly after saying countries should build nuclear power stations to help reduce the greenhouse gas emissions caused by coal and oil.

    'Perfect recipe' for wildfires as season starts early

    Asked if he was now a climate skeptic, Lovelock told msnbc.com: “It depends what you mean by a skeptic. I’m not a denier.”

    He said human-caused carbon dioxide emissions were driving an increase in the global temperature, but added that the effect of the oceans was not well enough understood and could have a key role.

    “It (the sea) could make all the difference between a hot age and an ice age,” he said.

    He said he still thought that climate change was happening, but that its effects would be felt farther in the future than he previously thought.

    “We will have global warming, but it’s been deferred a bit,” Lovelock said.

    'I made a mistake'
    As “an independent and a loner,” he said he did not mind saying “All right, I made a mistake.” He claimed a university or government scientist might fear an admission of a mistake would lead to the loss of funding.

    Lovelock -- who has previously worked with NASA and discovered the presence of harmful chemicals (CFCs) in the atmosphere but not their effect on the ozone layer -- stressed that humanity should still “do our best to cut back on fossil fuel burning” and try to adapt to the coming changes.

    Peter Stott, head of climate monitoring and attribution at the U.K.’s respected Met Office Hadley Centre, agreed Lovelock had been too alarmist with claims about people having to live in the Arctic by 2100.

    And he also agreed with Lovelock that the rate of warming in recent years had been less than expected by the climate models.

    However, Stott said this was a short-term trend that could be within the natural range of variation and it would need to continue for another 10 years or so before it could be considered evidence that something was missing from climate models.

    ...
    DarrinS is offline

  14. #3039
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,830
    Well, Darrin, its difficult to tell whether you are a denier of the whole thing or just skeptical of the impacts as much as you vacillate between positions. I see that more of you being an intellectually lazy that doesn't read what you post and a lack of accountability or responsibility in telling the truth. Minion.
    FuzzyLumpkins is offline

  15. #3040
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    21,547
    I watched the entire "Frozen Planet" series on Discovery and it had some pretty interesting information regarding global warming and that at some time in the near future there will be parts of the Arctic Ocean that will not be frozen for the first time in recorded history.
    JoeChalupa is offline

  16. #3041
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    I watched the entire "Frozen Planet" series on Discovery and it had some pretty interesting information regarding global warming and that at some time in the near future there will be parts of the Arctic Ocean that will not be frozen for the first time in recorded history.
    I went to see if that was available on Netflix. Didn't find it. Oh well...
    Wild Cobra is offline

  17. #3042
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    50,681
    Yes.

    Now, which theory costs me the most money, right now?
    Persistently high oil prices would clearly lead to subs ution (electric cars, natural-gas-powered trucks) but the transition costs could be significant.
    http://www.economist.com/node/21553034

    As stated before, the cost in terms of present value is greater doing nothing.

    This is a very clear, certain market trend.

    You have asked the wrong question, and one that seems to me to be irrational.


    At this point we have gotten to:

    Yoni has doubts about the dangers of CO2, but admits he could be wrong.
    RG has doubts about the economic catastrophe of limiting CO2, but hey, I could be wrong.

    So we are left with the reasoning of this guy, yet again:



    We must choose which, if true, would be worse. The potential worst-case scenarios for AGW far exceed even the worst-case alarmism of people who claim limiting CO2 would send our economy into a tizzy.

    Add in economic data that says we will be incurring some pretty substantial transition costs even if we do nothing, we will not be avoiding any of the bad aspects of limiting CO2.

    Even if the world can find more oil—in the Arctic or tar sands, say—the longer-term question is whether the era of “cheap energy” is over and how the world can adjust if it is. Developed economies are built on easy access to cheap energy, importing goods that are transported from around the world, with consumers driving many miles to work in air-conditioned offices and then flying off to sunny climes for their annual holidays. Persistently high oil prices would clearly lead to subs ution (electric cars, natural-gas-powered trucks) but the transition costs could be significant.
    http://www.economist.com/node/21553034

    This cost will be the same between scenarios. As such, it becomes logically irrelevant.

    Do nothing, and you still will be limiting your CO2 emissions, WHATEVER effects that has.

    The only logical solution I see is to prudently start mitigating your emissions now, while energy is cheaper, and the costs are lower.
    RandomGuy is offline

  18. #3043
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    50,681
    The "free-market" capitalism doesn't tend to think very long term, and focuses on short-term profits.

    That may be all well and good for this quarters' shareholder dividend, but when it comes to finding solutions for long-term problems where costs down the road are looming, it is a piss-poor way to run a country, IMO.
    RandomGuy is offline

  19. #3044
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    Random.

    There is no need to act now, especially if the rest of the world isn't on board, especially Asia. There isn't enough evidence to show that CO2 is a problem. We currently do not have the technology in large availability, especially at an affordable price.

    The AGW community has made a mockery of the scientific process. They claim CO2 is the culprit, yet cannot rule out other causes for what see in climate change. There are also those studies that make the claim CO2 is far less a warming gas, and those that show at the levels it is in the atmosphere actually cools as well.

    In science, if there really was good evidence, you would not have other scientists claiming the opposite.
    Wild Cobra is offline

  20. #3045
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    50,681
    Random.

    There is no need to act now, especially if the rest of the world isn't on board, especially Asia. There isn't enough evidence to show that CO2 is a problem. We currently do not have the technology in large availability, especially at an affordable price.

    The AGW community has made a mockery of the scientific process. They claim CO2 is the culprit, yet cannot rule out other causes for what see in climate change. There are also those studies that make the claim CO2 is far less a warming gas, and those that show at the levels it is in the atmosphere actually cools as well.

    In science, if there really was good evidence, you would not have other scientists claiming the opposite.
    Logically irrelevant.

    I have explained to you why it is logically irrelevent.

    You have, illogically, claimed that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, to a degree of certainty that strains credulity, and certainly one to which no credible scientist will ever lay hands on.

    Real scientists always admit for the possibility of error. You don't.

    The logical problem is that if you do admit the possibility that you are wrong, you have to admit the possibility that the scientists are right.

    You have then fully accepted the logic in that video.

    So, either you are 100% without a doubt certain, and therefore not credible, or you have accepted that we must take action.

    There are no logical alternatives.

    Take your pick.
    RandomGuy is offline

  21. #3046
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Post Count
    97,518
    "piss-poor way to run a country"

    and since stock-price-driven UCA runs the country, the USA is run piss poor.

    Ethanol industry now pushing the 10% ethanol "mandate" (a Repug mandate) to 15%.

    In a huge reversal, more corn is turned into 200 proof moonshine than is fed to cows.
    boutons_deux is offline

  22. #3047
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    Logically irrelevant.

    I have explained to you why it is logically irrelevent.

    You have, illogically, claimed that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, to a degree of certainty that strains credulity, and certainly one to which no credible scientist will ever lay hands on.
    That's not true. I have only stated that I know that AGW is not as severe as it is being claimed to be. I suspect CO2 is only around 10% of the claim. i do not set any specific levels, because I know I would not be able to.
    Real scientists always admit for the possibility of error. You don't.
    Example please.
    The logical problem is that if you do admit the possibility that you are wrong, you have to admit the possibility that the scientists are right.
    That's your biased assumption.
    You have then fully accepted the logic in that video.
    I don't know if that's the same one, or a new one. I know where they guy's coming from, and I think he did a good job before. I did not watch that video because of the length, and figured it's the same one one I already saw. If there is a relevant point you wish me to see, give me a time index. I have better things to do that waste 10 minutes of my day.
    So, either you are 100% without a doubt certain, and therefore not credible, or you have accepted that we must take action.

    There are no logical alternatives.

    Take your pick.
    Third option.

    You're assuming out your ass.
    Wild Cobra is offline

  23. #3048
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    "piss-poor way to run a country"

    and since stock-price-driven UCA runs the country, the USA is run piss poor.

    Ethanol industry now pushing the 10% ethanol "mandate" (a Repug mandate) to 15%.

    In a huge reversal, more corn is turned into 200 proof moonshine than is fed to cows.
    I think the ethanol as a fuel is stupid, but anything we do in that regard, all subsidies need to be removed.

    If it's mandated, why worry about the cost? There's a captive market for it.
    Wild Cobra is offline

  24. #3049
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    50,681
    That's not true. I have only stated that I know that AGW is not as severe as it is being claimed to be. I suspect CO2 is only around 10% of the claim. i do not set any specific levels, because I know I would not be able to.
    So, you suspect the scientists are wrong, but cannot provide any alternate figures.

    So you allow for the possibility that you are wrong.

    Again, you are taking the first steps along the logical chain established by the guy in the funny hat, playing devils advocate.

    That logical chain allows for decision making in the face of ambiguity. One does not have to be certain either way to make a decision about what to do.

    Indeed, since we are in the testtube, the experiment runs no matteer what we think the value for CO2 is.
    RandomGuy is offline

  25. #3050
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trailblazers
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    43,117
    So, you suspect the scientists are wrong, but cannot provide any alternate figures.

    So you allow for the possibility that you are wrong.

    Again, you are taking the first steps along the logical chain established by the guy in the funny hat, playing devils advocate.

    That logical chain allows for decision making in the face of ambiguity. One does not have to be certain either way to make a decision about what to do.

    Indeed, since we are in the testtube, the experiment runs no matteer what we think the value for CO2 is.
    No...

    Read that again.

    I know the warming caused by CO2 cannot be as much as the alarmists claim. I believe the alarmists claims about as much as I believe in pink unicorns. I can't help it that you believe in pink unicorns.

    You continually disregard things I say that don't fit your biased opinion of me.

    Must I repeat myself?

    Yes... CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Yes, it causes warming. That does not mean it is dangerous.

    My God....

    You are worried about a glass overflowing by adding a few drops. There are more serious reasons why the earth has been warming, and it isn't CO2.

    Just because of the nature of solubility of a gas in water alone, if we were to some how, magically stop all man made CO2, the levels will not decrease back to pre 1800 levels. Warmer ocean equals more atmospheric CO2. Period. Proven known science. Unless you can somehow reduce the oceans temperature, CO2 levels will not decrease. The 0.18% solar increase since the 1700's is a tremendous amount of extra energy in the earth's energy budget.
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 04-26-2012 at 04:05 PM.
    Wild Cobra is offline

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •