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  1. #3701
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I am still waiting to hear his response to UW and NSF's corrections to the satellite temperature readings. He accuses other people of ignoring points but what do you want to bet within the next month or so he posts more of the uncorrected satellite data?

    If there's something wrong with it, they should correct it. That applies to satellite data and land data.
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  2. #3702
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Oh, by the way

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/0...-temperatures/



    by John R. Christy and Roy W. Spencer
    University of Alabama in Huntsville

    A new paper by Stephen Po-Chedley and Quang Fu (2012) (hereafter PCF) was sent to us at the end of April 2012 in page-proof form as an article to appear soon in the Journal of Atmospheric and Oceanic Technology. The topic of the paper is an analysis of a single satellite’s impact on the rarely-used, multi-satellite deep-layer global temperature of the mid-troposphere or TMT. Some of you have been waiting for our response, but this was delayed by the fact that one of us (J. Christy) was out of the country when the UW press release was issued and just returned on Tuesday the 8th.

    There are numerous incorrect and misleading assumptions in this paper. Neither one of us was aware of the paper until it was sent to us by Po-Chedley two weeks ago, so the paper was written and reviewed in complete absence of the authors of the dataset itself. In some cases this might be a normal activity, but in a situation where complicated algorithms are involved, it is clear that PCF did not have a sufficient understanding of the construction methodology.

    By way of summary, here are our main conclusions regarding the new PCF paper:

    1) the authors’ methodology is qualitative and irreproducible

    2) the author’s are uninformed on the complexity of the UAH satellite merging algorithm



    3) the authors use the RSS (Remotes Sensing Systems) satellite dataset as “verification” for their proposed UAH NOAA-9 calibration target adjustment for TMT, but barely mention that their TLT (lower tropospheric) results are insignificant and that trends are essentially identical between UAH and RSS without any adjustment in the NOAA-9 calibration coefficient

    4) the authors neglected the main TMT differences among the datasets – and instead try to explain the UAH v. RSS trend difference by only two years of NOAA-9 data, while missing all of the publications which do ent other issues such as RSS problems with applying the diurnal correction.

    The paper specifically claims to show that a calibration target coefficient of one satellite, NOAA-9, should be a value different than that calculated directly from empirical data in UAH’s version of the dataset. With an adjustment to the time series guesstimated by PCF, this increases the UAH overall global trend by +0.042 °C/decade. Their new UAH trend, being +0.042 warmer, then becomes the same as the TMT trend from RSS. This, they conclude, indicates a verification of their exercise.

    More importantly, with regard to the most publicized UAH dataset, the temperature of the lower troposphere (TLT), there was no similar analysis done by PCF – an indication that their re-calculations would not support their desired outcome for this dataset, as we shall demonstrate below.

    All of this will soon be moot, anyway. Since last year we have been working on v6.0 of the UAH datasets which should be ready with the tropospheric temperature datasets before summer is out. These will include (1) a new, more defensible objective empirical calculation to correct for the drift of the satellites through the diurnal cycle, and (2) a new hot calibration target effective emissivity adjustment which results in better agreement between simultaneously operating satellites at the calibration step, making the post-calibration hot-target adjustment PCF criticizes unnecessary. So, since our new v6.0 dataset is close to completion and submission for publication, we have chosen this venue to do ent PCF’s misinformation in a rather informal, but reproducible, way rather than bother to submit a journal rebuttal addressing the older dataset. However, to show that version 5.4 of our datasets was credible, we discuss these issues below.

    The Lower Tropospheric Temperatures (TLT)

    We shall return to TMT below, but most of the research and popular use of the UAH datasets have focused on the lower tropospheric temperature, or TLT (surface to about 300 hPa, i.e. without stratospheric impact). Thus, we shall begin our discussion with TLT because it is rightly seen as a more useful variable because it do ents the bulk heat content of the troposphere with very little influence from the stratosphere. And [this is important in the TMT discussion] the same hot-target coefficients for NOAA-9 were used in TLT as in TMT.

    PCF focused on the deep layer TMT, i.e. temperature of the surface to about 75 hPa, which includes quite a bit of signal above 300 hPa. As such, TMT includes a good portion of the lower stratosphere – a key weakness when utilizing radiosondes which went through significant changes and adjustments during this time. [This was a period when many stations converted to the Vaisala 80 radiosonde which introduced temperature shifts throughout the atmosphere (Christy and Norris 2004).]

    As indicated in their paper, it seems PCF’s goal was to explain the differences in trend between RSS and UAH, but the history of this effort has always been to find error with UAH’s products rather than in other products (as we shall see below). With us shut out of the peer-review cycle it is easy to assume an underlying bias of the authors.

    Lord Kelvin told us that “All science is numbers”, so here are some numbers. First, let’s look at the “global” trends of UAH and RSS for TLT (70S to 82.5N) for Jan 1979 to Apr 2012:

    +0.137 °C/decade UAH LT (70S-82.5N)
    +0.134 °C/decade RSS LT (70S-82.5N)

    These trends are, for all practical purposes, identical. This, however, hides the fact that there are indeed differences between the two time series that, for one reason or another, are balanced out when calculating the linear trend over the entire 30+ year period. As several papers have do ented (see Christy et al. 2011, or C11, for the list – by the way, C11 was not cited by PCF) the evidence indicates RSS contains a spurious warming in the 1990’s then a spurious cooling from around 2002 onward (note that the RSS temperature anomaly for last month, April, 2012, was 0.08°C cooler than our UAH anomaly).

    This behavior arises, we believe, from an over-correction of the drift of the satellites by RSS (in the 1990’s the satellites drifted to cooler times of day, so the correction must add warming, and in the 2000’s the satellites drifted to warmer times of day so a correction is needed to cool things down.) These corrections are needed (except for the Aqua satellite operating since 2002, which has no diurnal drift and which we use as an anchor in the UAH dataset) but if not of the right magnitude they will easily affect the trend.

    In a single paragraph, PCF admit that the UAH TLT time series has no significant hot-target relationship with radiosonde comparisons (which for TLT are more robust) over the NOAA-9 period. However, they then utilize circular reasoning to claim that since RSS and UAH have a bit of disagreement in that 2-year period, and RSS must be correct, that then means UAH has a problem. So, this type of logic, as stated by PCF, points to their bias – assume that RSS is correct which then implies UAH is the problem. This requires one to ignore the many publications that show the opposite.

    Note too that in their press release, PCF claim that observations and models now are closer together for this key parameter (temperature of the bulk troposphere) if one artificially increases the trend in UAH data. This is a questionable claim as evidence shows TLT for CMIP3 and CMIP5 models averages about +0.26 °C/decade (beginning in 1979) whereas UAH *and* RSS datasets are slightly below +0.14 °C/decade, about a factor of 2 difference between models and observations. We shall let the reader decide if the PCF press-release claim is accurate.

    The key point for the discussion here (and below) is that TLT uses the same hot-target coefficients as TMT, yet we see no problem related to it for the many evaluation studies we have published. Indeed this was the specific result found in Christy and Norris 2004 – again, work not cited by PCF.

    The Mid-Tropospheric Temperature (TMT)

    About 12 years ago we discovered that even though two different satellites were looking at the same globe at the same time, there were differences in their measurements beyond a simple bias (time-invariant offset). We learned that these were related to the variations in the temperature of the instrument itself. If the instrument warmed or cooled (differing solar angles as it orbited or drifted), so did the calculated temperature. We used the thermistors embedded in the hot-target plate to track the instrument temperature, hence the metric is often called the “hot target temperature coefficient.”

    To compensate for this error, we devised a method to calculate a coefficient that when multiplied by the hot target temperature would remove this variation for each satellite. Note that the coefficients were calculated from the satellite data, they were not estimated in an ad hoc fashion.

    The calculation of this coefficient depends on a number of things, (a) the magnitude of the already-removed satellite drift correction (i.e. diurnal correction), (b) the way the inter-satellite differences are smoothed, and (c) the sequence in which the satellites are merged.

    Since UAH and RSS perform these processes differently, the coefficients so calculated will be different. Again recall that the UAH (and RSS) coefficients are calculated from a system of equations, they are not invented. The coefficients are calculated to produce the largest decrease in inter-satellite error characteristics in each dataset.

    To make a long story short, PCF focused on the 26-month period of NOAA-9 operation, basically 1985-86. They then used radiosondes over this period to estimate the hot-target coefficient as +0.048 rather than UAH’s calculated value of +0.0986. [Note, the language in PCF is confusing, as we cannot tell if they conclude our coefficient is too high by 0.051 or should actually be 0.051. We shall assume they believe our coefficient is too high by 0.051 to give them the benefit of the doubt.]

    Recall, radiosondes were having significant shifts with the levels monitored by TMT primarily with the switch to Vaisala 80 sondes, and so over small, 26-month periods, just about any result might be expected. [We reproduced PCF’s Fig. 2 using only US VIZ sondes (which had no instrument changes in the 26-month period and span the globe from the western tropical Pacific to Alaska to the Caribbean Sea) and found an explained variance of less than 4% - an insignificant value.]

    Another problematic aspect of PCF’s methodology is that when looking at the merged time series, one does not see just NOAA-9’s influence, but the impact of all of the other satellites which provided data during 1985-86, i.e. NOAA-6, -7 and -8 as well. So, it is improper to assume one may pick out NOAA-9’s impact individually from the merged satellite series.

    That PCF had little understanding of the UAH algorithm is demonstrated by the following simple test. We subs uted the PCF value of +0.048 directly into our code. The increase in trend over our v5.4 TMT dataset was only +0.022 °C/decade for 1979-2009 (not 0.042), and +0.019 °C/decade for 1979-2012.

    To put it another way, PCF overestimated the impact of the NOAA-9 coefficient by a factor of about 2 when they artificially reconstructed our dataset using 0.048 as the NOAA-9 coefficient. In fact, if we use an implausible target coefficient of zero, we still can’t return a trend difference greater than +0.037 °C/decade. Thus PCF have incorrectly assumed something about the construction methodology of our time series that gave them a result which is demonstrated here to be faulty.

    In addition, by changing the coefficient to +0.048 in an ad hoc fashion, they create greater errors in NOAA-9’s comparisons to other satellites. Had they contacted us at any point about this, we would have helped them to understand the techniques. [There were 4 emails from Po-Chedley in Aug and Sep 2011, but this dealt with very basic facts about the dataset, not the construction methodology. Incidently, these emails were exchanged well after C11 was published.]

    PCF brought in a third dataset, STAR, but this one uses the same diurnal corrections and sequential merging methodology as RSS, so it is not a truly independent test. As shown in C11, STAR is clearly the outlier for overall trend values due to a different method of debiasing the various satellite data and a differing treatment of the fundamental brightness temperature calibration.

    We have additional information regarding UAH’s relatively low error statistics. Using radiosondes to evaluate microwave temperatures requires great care. In our tests, we concentrated on sondes which had do ented characteristics and a high degree of consistency such as the US VIZ and Australian sondes. These comparisons have been published a number of times, but most recently updated in C11.

    Here are the comparisons for the US VIZ radiosonde network (stretching from the western tropical Pacific to Alaska down across the conterminous US and to the Caribbean.) As you can see, UAH MT provides the lowest error magnitudes and highest reproducibility of the three data sets. Similar results were found for the Australian comparisons.



    For data through April 2012 we have the following global TMT trends: UAH +0.045, RSS +0.079 and STAR +0.124 °C/decade. So, RSS, in the middle, is closer to UAH than STAR, yet PCF chose to examine UAH as the “problem” dataset. Had PCF wanted to pick some low-hanging fruit regarding the differences between UAH, RSS and STAR, they would have (a) looked at the diurnal differences between UAH and RSS (see publications) or (b) looked at a simple time series of differences between the three datasets (below). One thing that pops out is a spurious upward shift in STAR TMT relative to UAH and RSS of about +0.06 °C on precisely 1 Jan 2001 – an obvious beginning-of-year glitch. Why not look there?


    The Bottom Line

    In conclusion, we believe that the result in PCF was a rather uninformed attempt to find fault with the UAH global temperature dataset, using an ad hoc adjustment to a single, short-lived satellite while overlooking the greater problems which have been do ented (published or as demonstrated in the figure above) regarding the other datasets.

    And think about this. If PCF is correct that we should be using a revised NOAA-9 coefficient, and since we use the same coefficient in both TMT and TLT, then the near perfect agreement currently between RSS and UAH for TLT will disappear; our TLT trend will become warmer, and then RSS will have the lowest warming trend of all the satellite datasets. The authors of the new study cannot have it both ways, claiming their new adjustment brings RSS and UAH closer together for TMT (a seldom used temperature index), but then driving the UAH and RSS trends for TLT farther apart, leaving RSS with essentially the same warming trend that UAH had before.

    Since it is now within 3 months of the publication cutoff for research to be included in the IPCC AR5, one is tempted to conclude that PCF will be well-received by the Lead Authors (some of whom are closely associated with the RSS dataset) without critical evaluation such as briefly performed here. However, we cannot predict what the AR5 outcome will be or, for that matter, what waning influence the IPCC might still exert.

    That PCF brushed aside the fact that the UAH and RSS trends for the LOWER troposphere are essentially identical (for which the UAH NOAA-9 coefficient is the same) seems to us to be a diversionary tactic we have seen before: create a strawman problem which will allow the next IPCC report to make a dismissive statement about the validity of an uncooperative dataset with a minimum of evidence. We hope that rationality instead prevails.

    References

    Christy, J.R. and W. B. Norris, 2004: What may we conclude about global tropospheric temperature trends? Geophys. Res. Lett. 31, No. 6.

    Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer and W.B Norris (deceased), 2011: The role of remote sensing in monitoring global bulk tropospheric temperatures. Int. J. Remote Sens. 32, 671-685, DOI:10.1080/01431161.2010.517803.

    Po-Chedley, S. and Q. Fu, 2012: A bias in the midtropospheric channel warm target factor on the NOAA-9 Microwave Sounding Unit. J. Atmos. Oceanic Tech. DOI: 10.1175/JTECH-D-11-00147.1.
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  3. #3703
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    You realize that your video contradicts the paper linked by Manny, right?
    No it does not you lazy sophist piece of . It accounts for M-cycles stating that the contribution due to increased exposure to radiation does not explain the historical temperature increase.

    It discusses your lag and distinguishes between internal and external contributors. It also talks about empirical records of feedback mechanisms ie that when it gets hotter the ice melts which releases CO2, an internal factor, versus external anthropogenic sources.
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  4. #3704
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    So then the record is disputed?

    Since UAH and RSS perform these processes differently, the coefficients so calculated will be different. Again recall that the UAH (and RSS) coefficients are calculated from a system of equations, they are not invented. The coefficients are calculated to produce the largest decrease in inter-satellite error characteristics in each dataset.
    Thats the salient point and UAH does not really argue superiority he just moves onto other things.
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  5. #3705
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    That didn't really answer my question.

    How do you, Darrin, generally decide what is a reasonable argument or claim, and what is not?

    What is your process?

    Not trying to be snarky or anything, I just wonder if you have ever given any thought to it.
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  6. #3706
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    No it does not you lazy sophist piece of . It accounts for M-cycles stating that the contribution due to increased exposure to radiation does not explain the historical temperature increase.

    It discusses your lag and distinguishes between internal and external contributors. It also talks about empirical records of feedback mechanisms ie that when it gets hotter the ice melts which releases CO2, an internal factor, versus external anthropogenic sources.
    We both seem to understand this. Darrin does not.

    Personally I think he looked at the le of the video, and that was it. If that was all he did Darrin's statement makes sense.
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  7. #3707
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    No it does not you lazy sophist piece of .
    Nice

    It accounts for M-cycles stating that the contribution due to increased exposure to radiation does not explain the historical temperature increase.
    ok


    It discusses your lag and distinguishes between internal and external contributors. It also talks about empirical records of feedback mechanisms ie that when it gets hotter the ice melts which releases CO2, an internal factor, versus external anthropogenic sources.
    My lag?
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  8. #3708
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I don't know how much simpler I can put it but the output of a feedback is not necessarily linear to the input from the sun.
    Some are and some aren't.
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  9. #3709
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    And Manny would also think that video is re ed because it talks a lot about Milankovitch cycles causing ice ages.
    No, it talks about Milankovitch triggering ice ages that would not otherwise be possible without FEEDBACKS. You know, the thing you discount completely.
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  10. #3710
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Yeah it was nice. After looking at Poptech's climate database, I got a new appreciation for just how much sophistry denial science is. He categorizes the arguments and his broken brain just spews out the header.

    You do a lot of the same thing. How many times have we watched you just look at an article or video le and just paste that up. We have watched you go through the exact same headers that he does. You cite Poptech constantly and participate with his characterizations and sophistry along with him.

    That's just how you roll.
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  11. #3711
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    No, it talks about Milankovitch triggering ice ages that would not otherwise be possible without FEEDBACKS. You know, the thing you discount completely.

    I don't discount them completely.
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  12. #3712
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Yeah it was nice. After looking at Poptech's climate database, I got a new appreciation for just how much sophistry denial science is. He categorizes the arguments and his broken brain just spews out the header.

    You do a lot of the same thing. How many times have we watched you just look at an article or video le and just paste that up. We have watched you go through the exact same headers that he does. You cite Poptech constantly and participate with his characterizations and sophistry along with him.

    That's just how you roll.

    I posted Poptech's list exactly once in response to a question from Manny. Why must you lie?
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  13. #3713
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Darrin focuses on the science. No really.
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  14. #3714
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Darrin focuses on the science. No really.

    I've was working in science back when you and FuzzyTurd where sitting in your own e diapers.
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  15. #3715
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I posted Poptech's list exactly once in response to a question from Manny. Why must you lie?
    How many times have you brought up the picture of the cartoonist or discounted his input with that picture from Poptech's smear article?

    That was hardly the first time you cited him. Unfortunately, its often hard to tell where you get stuff from because you omit or lie about the source.
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  16. #3716
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I don't discount them completely.
    You do. You say there is no evidence for strong feedback yet the glaciation cycles are compete evidence for strong feedbacks that are a reaction to nothing more than a reorganization of insolation on a monthly basis. The crazy thing is that we're talking huge swings in temp based on nothing more than a swing of 100 ppm regarding CO2 (from ~190 to ~280). There is huge evidence for strong feedbacks through out the entire paleoclimate record. The Younger Dryas is a more recent example of how feedbacks can cause sudden huge changes in the climate system.

    Maybe you do and you don't discount them completely at the same time because you simply have no idea what you're talking about.
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  17. #3717
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I've was working in science back when you and FuzzyTurd where sitting in your own e diapers.
    You think you might have learned something in that time. Then again, incorrect practice just makes for incorrect perfection.

    The next time you actually are about the science in this thread will be the ffirst time.
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  18. #3718
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    This whole soot idea is such bull is an example of WC simply grasping at straws in an abject refusal to admit scientists actually know more than him.
    Really?

    What about the studies around it that explicitly state that is is causing arctic ice to melt faster?

    What about the IPCC revising their number to a forcing of about three times stronger than in the AT4?
    You would think the ice was black the way he talks about it.
    It doesn't need to be black to melt faster. It only takes a light disting that is invisible to the naked eye to make large changes in the solar energy absorbed rather than reflected. Change the albedo from 90% to 80% and you just doubled the absorbed energy, however, you really don't notice the 11% reduction in reflected light.
    Its not soot thats melting the Artic Sea Ice, its the god damn warm waters underneath it. SSTs in the Arctic ocean are normally higher than those of the Southern Ocean but they've been at record levels in recent years. This is what drove all the melting last season.
    Yes, it takes time for the energy from increased solar irradiance to build up. It takes time for the ocean currents to move. The last major increase in the sun's output leveled off about 1950.
    Furthermore, the ice volume has dropped off consistently every single year. You may get recovery to a higher level of areal extent, but the new ice is thinner than each previous year which is why the total volume is a much better representation of how much ice there actually is.
    Yes, and isn't geothermal activity increasing? You have slightly warmer air which when still above freezing doesn't melt the ice. You have a light dusting of soot which is known beyond doubt to increase ice melt. You have geothermal factors
    And yes, research has been done into quantifying the soot contribution. Its not negligible at all, but to act as if it is a greater player than GHG is ridiculous.
    When I claim it's the 2nd largest contributor, it's because when you account for solar forcing, you either have to have so much more cooling from some factors, or the levels called for by CO2 simply are too high. There is no proper study to make the claim CO2 has the warming capacity claimed, and some studies claim it cools.
    PS My last final was earlier this week and I have a few weeks to do some "fun" reading before I start summer classes. Its probably going to consist of scientific papers. FML.
    Well, good luck. For your sake I hope I'm wrong, but I'll lay odds that much of what they teach you will be found incorrect over this next decade or two.
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  19. #3719
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    There is a vast gulf between not wanting to waste one's time putting together something worthwhile, only to have it ignored or dismissed completely, and being unable to put together something worthhwhile.

    I am unwilling, not unable.

    I have long ago made the case for the OP, in the way that people who want to deny that we are having any affect on our global climate approach the science.

    If I feel I have made my case that the majority of people who call themselves skeptics are not approaching the subject with any objectivity or fairness, why continue to talk about the science with people who won't change their mind no matter what?
    But that's your problem, isn't it.

    We are not denying AGW.

    We are only denying the level to which the AGW alarmists claim, and want their evidence proven before we believe them.

    Any paper that shows they could be wrong should be taken serious, but it isn't. You have two good competing studies that show different things, and the alarmists have zero skepticism when it should be a clear red flag.

    No...

    The AGW community believes the Dogma of AGW instead of seeking the truth.
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  20. #3720
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I bet you could find a header for each of WC's arguments in the crazy's database. Geothermal, lag, solar, etc.
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  21. #3721
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Geo ingthermal? REALLY? Have you learned nothing about the north pole?


    Look at a god damn map.

    Jesus Christ talking to you and Darrin is like talking to a couple of re ed kids.
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  22. #3722
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Geo ingthermal? REALLY? Have you learned nothing about the north pole?


    Look at a god damn map.

    Jesus Christ talking to you and Darrin is like talking to a couple of re ed kids.
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  23. #3723
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I bet you could find a header for each of WC's arguments in the crazy's database. Geothermal, lag, solar, etc.
    He's just throwing against a wall and trying to see what sticks. He just ing tried geothermal in a conversation about northern sea ice. I mean what the flying ? Really?
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  24. #3724
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    This bit addresses WC's ocean/CO2 bits as well.

    This series is good because he goes to the science used by deniers, and (gasp) actually reads it, and, in this case, talks directly to the climate scientist involved.

    Nifty.
    Wow...

    Just like all alarmists, they focus on CO2 and completely disregard the major greenhouse has...

    Water vapor... To what effect would the minor increase in temperature play in global humidity? My God people... WAKE UP!

    Have you noticed the assumption built upon assumptions...

    Notice the words they use like "might," "could," "probably," etc...

    I see nothing definitive about this video. Just more smooth manipulation of data and words.
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  25. #3725
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    You realize you are wrong about that, right?


    (edit)

    You didn't watch the whole thing, did you?
    I watched the whole thing. Another real good piece of propaganda by a charlatan.
    Wild Cobra is offline

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