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  1. #1676
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I understand conservation of energy. I am not claiming any violation of such physics. Do you believe that regardless of the shortwave and longwave energy the ocean absorbs, it maintains a constant temperature?
    You act like they do not understand the theory of others that you poorly explain about the heat exchange with the ocean and ocean currents.

    You really are mindnumbingly stupid.
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  2. #1677
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I understand conservation of energy. I am not claiming any violation of such physics.
    No, you don't. If you did you wouldn't say the ocean is causing the heating and then follow it up with you don't know whether or not the ocean is gaining or losing energy.

    Do you believe that regardless of the shortwave and longwave energy the ocean absorbs, it maintains a constant temperature?
    Of course not. Because of the additional downward radiation caused by GHG increases it is gaining energy. This is seen in thermal expansion and increased oceanic heat content. Because it is gaining energy, it cannot be the cause increased atmospheric heating.
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  3. #1678
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    No, you don't. If you did you wouldn't say the ocean is causing the heating and then follow it up with you don't know whether or not the ocean is gaining or losing energy.



    Of course not. Because of the additional downward radiation caused by GHG increases it is gaining energy. This is seen in thermal expansion and increased oceanic heat content. Because it is gaining energy, it cannot be the cause increased atmospheric heating.
    We have a misunderstanding, and instead of being a man, you want to make accusations rather than get to the bottom of our misunderstanding. I have to either conclude you are clueless, or you have no desire to debate an argument you will lose.
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  4. #1679
    Veteran Halberto's Avatar
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    Another contributor of GHG:

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  5. #1680
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Another contributor of GHG:

    What's worse is the hot air our politicians spew on a regular basis.
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  6. #1681
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I'm going to go way back to this post to try to get a point across that you fail to see.


    I specifically said outgoing LW radiation in each post and somehow you still didn't get it but you understand EVERYTHING sooooooooooooooooo well. You're amazing.
    Yes, I understand these theories, believe it or not. However, you are also taking about longwave being seen by satellites. I do understand that the general dynamics include when less energy leaves the system, the earth warms. However, you still have to look at the entire spectra. Not just CO2, and not just longwave.

    How far would you say the spectra of CO2 can be seen? To explain my point, I will compare it to fog. The thicker fog is, the less distance we see through it. At some point, you cannot discern anything. Same thing with the IR spectral imaging. At this point, from a satellite view, we are only seeing the uppermost atmosphere. Not into the troposphere. Looking at any specific spectra, you can only see so far before it appears opaque. Then... how in do you determine just how deep you were looking? Any stereoscopic method that helps determining distance also reduces accuracy to the point of being useless date. Upper atmospheric temperatures do not coincide with lower atmosphere temperatures. Seeing less power emitted from the CO2 bands can mean it is blocking more, or it can mean the CO2 in the upper atmosphere is cooling. It can mean the surface is cooling. Seeing less LW spectra can mean the same thing. More blocking, cooler upper atmosphere, or cooler surface. These chances can also be natural oscillations we are not yet aware of. Maybe if we had 1,000 years of satellite data, we could theorize something more solid, right now, it's still just hypothetical and poorly understood theoretical.

    Now what about addressing shortwave? If more shortwave is being reflected or refracted, there is less energy to change to LW. After all, nearly all the longwave energy we measure originates from the shortwave.

    What about the small amount of SW being emitted by oxygen, nitrogen, ozone, etc? You have to look at the whole package. Not just shortwave or CO2.

    The atmospheric mix is primarily nitrogen, followed by oxygen, argon, and then CO2. It is only about 0.04% of the atmosphere, and even though per molecule, the the spectral emissions are small for the other three, by shear volume alone, they cannot be discounted. H2O is in there too, but primarily stays below 10 km in al ude.

    There is so much going on. Varying humidity, varying clouds, varying solar output, varying earth distance to the sun by time of year, etc. Eventually, any warming that occurs with CO2 or H2O, is transmitted to the Nitrogen, oxygen, and argon. Same holds true with them. Solar activity has seen decreasing for some time now, probably reducing the higher energy spectra that heats the upper atmosphere, the same way the aurora australis and aurora borealis change with the solar cycles. Can you convince me that this obvious change in uppermost atmosphere temperature changes will not affect the long wave spectra, after the heat transfer takes place between the molecules? Do you think they someone magically segregate themselves?

    About 25% to 28% of the solar energy is absorbed in the atmosphere, mostly from shortwave energy. This energy will have an effect on the CO2 and H2O heat also. It works both ways.

    Changes in cloud density and coverage likely have the largest effect on atmospheric heat. CO2 is a minor player for so many reasons. H2O is pretty effective at blocking all but one CO2 spectral band, and partially blocks another. The one band can be determined to see CO2 vibration, but again. It can only be seen so deep before the error becomes too much for any accuracy, because it is mixed with other gasses, heating or cooling it as they do in any fluid/gas system.

    When you talk about only longwave, with no talk about incoming energy, or shortwave levels, it is pointless.

    Back to temperature in the upper atmosphere. With such a variance in temperature vs. al ude, they are bound to be some pretty big swings:

    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 10-22-2011 at 09:28 PM.
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  7. #1682
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I'm going to go way back to this post to try to get a point across that you fail to see.

    Yes, I understand these theories, believe it or not. However, you are also taking about longwave being seen by satellites. I do understand that the general dynamics include when less energy leaves the system, the earth warms. However, you still have to look at the entire spectra. Not just CO2, and not just longwave.

    How far would you say the spectra of CO2 can be seen? To explain my point, I will compare it to fog. The thicker fog is, the less distance we see through it. At some point, you cannot discern anything. Same thing with the IR spectral imaging. At this point, from a satellite view, we are only seeing the uppermost atmosphere. Not into the troposphere. Looking at any specific spectra, you can only see so far before it appears opaque. Then... how in do you determine just how deep you were looking? Any stereoscopic method that helps determining distance also reduces accuracy to the point of being useless date. Upper atmospheric temperatures do not coincide with lower atmosphere temperatures. Seeing less power emitted from the CO2 bands can mean it is blocking more, or it can mean the CO2 in the upper atmosphere is cooling. It can mean the surface is cooling. Seeing less LW spectra can mean the same thing. More blocking, cooler upper atmosphere, or cooler surface. These chances can also be natural oscillations we are not yet aware of. Maybe if we had 1,000 years of satellite data, we could theorize something more solid, right now, it's still just hypothetical and poorly understood theoretical.

    Now what about addressing shortwave? If more shortwave is being reflected or refracted, there is less energy to change to LW. After all, nearly all the longwave energy we measure originates from the shortwave.

    What about the small amount of SW being emitted by oxygen, nitrogen, ozone, etc? You have to look at the whole package. Not just shortwave or CO2.

    The atmospheric mix is primarily nitrogen, followed by oxygen, argon, and then CO2. It is only about 0.04% of the atmosphere, and even though per molecule, the the spectral emissions are small for the other three, by shear volume alone, they cannot be discounted. H2O is in there too, but primarily stays below 10 km in al ude.

    There is so much going on. Varying humidity, varying clouds, varying solar output, varying earth distance to the sun by time of year, etc. Eventually, any warming that occurs with CO2 or H2O, is transmitted to the Nitrogen, oxygen, and argon. Same holds true with them. Solar activity has seen decreasing for some time now, probably reducing the higher energy spectra that heats the upper atmosphere, the same way the aurora australis and aurora borealis change with the solar cycles. Can you convince me that this obvious change in uppermost atmosphere temperature changes will not affect the long wave spectra, after the heat transfer takes place between the molecules? Do you think they someone magically segregate themselves?

    About 25% to 28% of the solar energy is absorbed in the atmosphere, mostly from shortwave energy. This energy will have an effect on the CO2 and H2O heat also. It works both ways.

    Changes in cloud density and coverage likely have the largest effect on atmospheric heat. CO2 is a minor player for so many reasons. H2O is pretty effective at blocking all but one CO2 spectral band, and partially blocks another. The one band can be determined to see CO2 vibration, but again. It can only be seen so deep before the error becomes too much for any accuracy, because it is mixed with other gasses, heating or cooling it as they do in any fluid/gas system.

    When you talk about only longwave, with no talk about incoming energy, or shortwave levels, it is pointless.

    Back to temperature in the upper atmosphere. With such a variance in temperature vs. al ude, they are bound to be some pretty big swings:

    So let me get this straight. Your same brain likes the ocean current model and the methodology behind that but think the satellite's millions upon millions of points of data are worthless?

    Do you even have any notion what they are talking about when they say confirmation bias? You really do disgust me. Hes keeping a list of your stupid like a mark of shame and you just blithely saunter right back in.

    At least the warming has become serious enough lately that risk assessment takes over for the subterfuge of the shills you parrot.

    We don't need shill minions.
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  8. #1683
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight. Your same brain likes the ocean current model and the methodology behind that but think the satellite's millions upon millions of points of data are worthless?
    Both have merit, but the accuracy is lacking unless you can see defined areas.
    Do you even have any notion what they are talking about when they say confirmation bias?
    Yes.
    You really do disgust me. Hes keeping a list of your stupid like a mark of shame and you just blithely saunter right back in.
    That is his confirmation bias, and yours if you agree.
    At least the warming has become serious enough lately that risk assessment takes over for the subterfuge of the shills you parrot.
    Assigning a risk assessment is one thing, but determining the root cause for what reason has what effect is not accurate, at least to date.
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  9. #1684
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    RG,

    As an accountant, if you "cooked the books" to give your boss (or client) a result they wanted, as opposed to the actual result, could you get into any legal trouble?

    Just curious.
    That depends. There is more leeway to some things than one might think in terms of which estimates or starting assumptions you want to use.

    There is a line though, past which it moves from optimistic to outright fraud.

    Legal trouble would be had if such cooked books were relied on by a third party. Depending on the scope/party, it would be criminal, or at the least civil, yes.
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  10. #1685
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10...erature_study/


    Massive study concludes: 'Global warming is real'
    Climate skeptics dealt 'clear and rigorous' blow
    ....
    The BEST team, however, had a stated goal of neither proving nor disproving global temperature increases. As expressed by project cofounder Elizabeth Muller, Richard's daughter, the goal was to conduct an analysis so data-rich and objective that it would "cool the debate over global warming by addressing many of the valid claims of the skeptics in a clear and rigorous way."

    The "valid claims" didn't survive.

    For one, skeptics have charged that previous studies were done with selective data sets, but BEST lead scientist Robert Rhode points out that his team's analysis "is the first study to address the issue of data selection bias, by using nearly all of the available data, which includes about five times as many station locations as were reviewed by prior groups."

    The data set was large, indeed: temperature data was gathered from 39,028 sites, collected by 10 different sources, resulting in 1.6 billion data points.

    Another objection that has been raised is that temperature observations over the decades have been influenced by sensors being encroached upon by human development – the "urban heat island" (UHI) effect. The BEST analysis, however, found this effect to be negligible at best.

    Enter überskeptic Anthony Watts
    Finally, some skeptics have questioned the accuracy of the data used in earlier studies – notably Anthony Watts of Watts Up With That?, a leading climate-skeptic blog.

    Watts argues that poorly performing temperature sensors in the US have skewed climate analysis, but the BEST analysis concludes that although readings from the stations Watts identifies as "poor" may be both higher and less accurate, the overall global warming trend is the same.

    Watts has some strong criticisms of the BEST report – which, of course, is as it should be: science is enriched by objective debate. Equally true, however, is that it's crippled by arguments that seek to merely prove a pre-decided point rather than be informed by observeable data.

    To help in that debate, the BEST team is sharing both its 1.6 billion temperature data points and the code used to analyze them.

    Project cofounder Richard Muller is a fervent believer in data sharing and peer review – and an equally fervent critic of how journals such as Science and Nature stifle broad-ranging peer analysis, debate, and collaboration.

    When contacted by The Reg, Muller responded in an email that he believes scientific papers should be widely circulated in "preprint" form before their publication. "It has been traditional throughout most of my career to distribute preprints around the world," he writes. "In fact, most universities and laboratories had 'preprint libraries' where you could frequently find colleagues."

    This preprint system, he told us, is being stifled by major journals. "This traditional peer-review system worked much better than the current Science/Nature system, which in my mind restricts the peer review to 2 or 3 anonymous people who often give a cursory look at the paper."

    While this more tightly controlled review method may enhance the prestige of major journals, Muller told us, it does nothing for the advancement of science.

    "I think this abandonment of the traditional peer review system is responsible, in part, for the fact that so many bad papers are being published," he writes. "These papers have not be vetted by the true peers, the large scientific world."

    And so the BEST data and code is out there, available to one and all, in the hope that the "large scientific world" will dig into it, and find out the truth. Because there is, after all, truth to be found – the earth is either warming or it isn't.

    Muller also believes there is more work to be done before the data is complete – a glance at the map, above, shows the paucity of ocean-based sensor stations. According to Muller, that's BEST's next project.

    Muller also cautions that observers should not take the BEST results and use them to prove something that they can't. When we asked him if it were possible to extrapolate from his team's results and predict whether the temperature increase will continue, he told us: "I don't think that is possible. The key issue is what fraction of the observed change is anthropomorphic. We don't shed much light on that."

    But the BEST project did come up with another finding that may influence the development of climate-variation models. "We do show that decadal variations (peaks and dips lasting 3-15 years) are driven much more by the north Atlantic variability (e.g. the Gulf Stream) than they are by El Niño," he told us. "We need to include this effect in the models to see if it changes the part that the models attribute to humans."

    The development of those models will require sober analysis of data and cooperation among scientists, technicians, and mathematicians, both from supporters and skeptics of predominantly accepted climate-change science.

    And during those discussions, The Reg humbly suggests that we keep two things in mind. One, that although "predominantly accepted" means neither true nor false, automatic contrarianism is of value only when its proponents remain open to data-fueled persuasion.

    And, two, that calling a scientist with whose results you disagree a "hockey puck" is hardly helpful.
    Hopefully we can move the debate forward a bit.

    I am for improvements to peer-review processes and making data/analysis more transparent.
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  11. #1686
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Muller also cautions that observers should not take the BEST results and use them to prove something that they can't. When we asked him if it were possible to extrapolate from his team's results and predict whether the temperature increase will continue, he told us: "I don't think that is possible. The key issue is what fraction of the observed change is anthropomorphic. We don't shed much light on that."

    But the BEST project did come up with another finding that may influence the development of climate-variation models. "We do show that decadal variations (peaks and dips lasting 3-15 years) are driven much more by the north Atlantic variability (e.g. the Gulf Stream) than they are by El Niño," he told us. "We need to include this effect in the models to see if it changes the part that the models attribute to humans."

    Hmmm
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  12. #1687
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I am for improvements to peer-review processes and making data/analysis more transparent.
    Until it is, and because of the amount of lying done, the AGW crowd will continue to lose credibility.
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  13. #1688
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    NOAA Bombs : Human-Caused Climate Change Already a Major Factor in More Frequent Mediterranean Droughts

    Wintertime droughts are increasingly common in the Mediterranean region, and human-caused climate change is partly responsible, according to a new analysis by NOAA scientists and colleagues at the Cooperative Ins ute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES). In the last 20 years, 10 of the driest 12 winters have taken place in the lands surrounding the Mediterranean Sea.

    “The magnitude and frequency of the drying that has occurred is too great to be explained by natural variability alone,” said Martin Hoerling, Ph.D. of NOAA’s Earth System Research Laboratory in Boulder, Colo., lead author of a paper published online in the Journal of Climate this month. “This is not encouraging news for a region that already experiences water stress, because it implies natural variability alone is unlikely to return the region’s climate to normal.”

    http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/1...nean-droughts/
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  14. #1689
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Until it is, and because of the amount of lying done, the AGW crowd will continue to lose credibility.




    This from a guy who has done more than his share to destroy the credibility of the skeptic arguments.
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  15. #1690
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Because I believe in intellectual honesty, and one of the key requirements of this is to admit the failings and weaknesses in your own arguments:

    An array of errors
    Investigations into a case of alleged scientific misconduct have revealed numerous holes in the oversight of science and scientific publishing

    ANIL POTTI, Joseph Nevins and their colleagues at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, garnered widespread attention in 2006. They reported in the New England Journal of Medicine that they could predict the course of a patient’s lung cancer using devices called expression arrays, which log the activity patterns of thousands of genes in a sample of tissue as a colourful picture (see above). A few months later, they wrote in Nature Medicine that they had developed a similar technique which used gene expression in laboratory cultures of cancer cells, known as cell lines, to predict which chemotherapy would be most effective for an individual patient suffering from lung, breast or ovarian cancer.

    At the time, this work looked like a tremendous advance for personalised medicine—the idea that understanding the molecular specifics of an individual’s illness will lead to a tailored treatment. The papers drew adulation from other workers in the field, and many newspapers, including this one (see article), wrote about them. The team then started to organise a set of clinical trials of personalised treatments for lung and breast cancer. Unbeknown to most people in the field, however, within a few weeks of the publication of the Nature Medicine paper a group of biostatisticians at the MD Anderson Cancer Centre in Houston, led by Keith Baggerly and Kevin Coombes, had begun to find serious flaws in the work.

    Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes had been trying to reproduce Dr Potti’s results at the request of clinical researchers at the Anderson centre who wished to use the new technique. When they first encountered problems, they followed normal procedures by asking Dr Potti, who had been in charge of the day-to-day research, and Dr Nevins, who was Dr Potti’s supervisor, for the raw data on which the published analysis was based—and also for further details about the team’s methods, so that they could try to replicate the original findings.

    A can of worms

    Dr Potti and Dr Nevins answered the queries and publicly corrected several errors, but Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes still found the methods’ predictions were little better than chance. Furthermore, the list of problems they uncovered continued to grow. For example, they saw that in one of their papers Dr Potti and his colleagues had mislabelled the cell lines they used to derive their chemotherapy prediction model, describing those that were sensitive as resistant, and vice versa. This meant that even if the predictive method the team at Duke were describing did work, which Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes now seriously doubted, patients whose doctors relied on this paper would end up being given a drug they were less likely to benefit from instead of more likely.

    Another alleged error the researchers at the Anderson centre discovered was a mismatch in a table that compared genes to gene-expression data. The list of genes was shifted with respect to the expression data, so that the one did not correspond with the other. On top of that, the numbers and names of cell lines used to generate the data were not consistent. In one instance, the researchers at Duke even claimed that their work made biological sense based on the presence of a gene, called ERCC1, that is not represented on the expression array used in the team’s experiments.

    Even with all these alleged errors, the controversy might have been relegated to an arcane debate in the scientific literature if the team at Duke had not chosen, within a few months of the papers’ publication (and at the time questions were being raised about the data’s quality) to launch three clinical trials based on their work. Dr Potti and his colleagues also planned to use their gene-expression data to guide therapeutic choices in a lung-cancer trial paid for by America’s National Cancer Ins ute (NCI). That led Lisa McShane, a biostatistician at the NCI who was already concerned about Dr Potti’s results, to try to replicate the work. She had no better luck than Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes. The more questions she asked, the less concrete the Duke methods appeared.

    In light of all this, the NCI expressed its concern about what was going on to Duke University’s administrators. In October 2009, officials from the university arranged for an external review of the work of Dr Potti and Dr Nevins, and temporarily halted the three trials. The review committee, however, had access only to material supplied by the researchers themselves, and was not presented with either the NCI’s exact concerns or the problems discovered by the team at the Anderson centre. The committee found no problems, and the three trials began enrolling patients again in February 2010.

    Finally, in July 2010, matters unravelled when the Cancer Letter reported that Dr Potti had lied in numerous do ents and grant applications. He falsely claimed to have been a Rhodes Scholar in Australia (a curious claim in any case, since Rhodes scholars only attend Oxford University). Dr Baggerly’s observation at the time was, “I find it ironic that we have been yelling for three years about the science, which has the potential to be very damaging to patients, but that was not what has started things rolling.”

    A bigger can?

    By the end of 2010, Dr Potti had resigned from Duke, the university had stopped the three trials for good, scientists from elsewhere had claimed that Dr Potti had stolen their data for inclusion in his paper in the New England Journal, and officials at Duke had started the process of retracting three prominent papers, including the one in Nature Medicine. (The paper in the New England Journal, not one of these three, was also retracted, in March of this year.) At this point, the NCI and officials at Duke asked the Ins ute of Medicine, a board of experts that advises the American government, to investigate. Since then, a committee of the ins ute, appointed for the task, has been trying to find out what was happening at Duke that allowed the problems to continue undetected for so long, and to recommend minimum standards that must be met before this sort of work can be used to guide clinical trials in the future.

    At the committee’s first meeting, in December 2010, Dr McShane stunned observers by revealing her previously unpublished investigation of the Duke work. Subsequently, the committee’s members interviewed Dr Baggerly about the problems he had encountered trying to sort the data. He noted that in addition to a lack of unfettered access to the computer code and consistent raw data on which the work was based, journals that had readily published Dr Potti’s papers were reluctant to publish his letters critical of the work. Nature Medicine published one letter, with a rebuttal from the team at Duke, but rejected further comments when problems continued. Other journals that had carried subsequent high-profile papers from Dr Potti behaved in similar ways. (Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes did not approach the New England Journal because, they say, they “never could sort that work enough to make critical comments to the journal”.) Eventually, the two researchers resorted to publishing their criticisms in a statistical journal, which would be unlikely to reach the same audience as a medical journal.

    Two subsequent sessions of the committee have included Duke’s point of view. At one of these, in March 2011, Dr Nevins admitted that some of the data in the papers had been “corrupted”. He continued, though, to claim ignorance of the problems identified by Dr Baggerly and Dr Coombes until the Rhodes scandal broke, and to support the overall methods used in the papers—though he could not explain why he had not detected the problems even when alerted to anomalies.

    At its fourth, and most recent meeting, on August 22nd, the committee questioned eight scientists and administrators from Duke. Rob Califf, a vice-chancellor in charge of clinical research, asserted that what had happened was a case of the “Swiss-cheese effect” in which 15 different things had to go awry to let the problems slip through unheeded. Asked by The Economist to comment on what was happening, he said, “As we evaluated the issues, we had the chance to review our systems and we believe we have identified, and are implementing, an improved approach.”

    The university’s lapses and errors included being slow to deal with potential financial conflicts of interest declared by Dr Potti, Dr Nevins and other investigators, including involvement in Expression Analysis Inc and CancerGuide DX, two firms to which the university also had ties. Moreover, Dr Califf and other senior administrators acknowledged that once questions arose about the work, they gave too much weight to Dr Nevins and his judgment. That led them, for example, to withhold Dr Baggerly’s criticisms from the external-review committee in 2009. They also noted that the internal committees responsible for protecting patients and overseeing clinical trials lacked the expertise to review the complex, statistics-heavy methods and data produced by experiments involving gene expression.

    That is a theme the investigating committee has heard repeatedly. The process of peer review relies (as it always has done) on the goodwill of workers in the field, who have jobs of their own and frequently cannot spend the time needed to check other people’s papers in a suitably thorough manner. (Dr McShane estimates she spent 300-400 hours reviewing the Duke work, while Drs Baggerly and Coombes estimate they have spent nearly 2,000 hours.) Moreover, the methods sections of papers are supposed to provide enough information for others to replicate an experiment, but often do not. Dodgy work will out eventually, as it is found not to fit in with other, more reliable discoveries. But that all takes time and money.

    The Ins ute of Medicine expects to complete its report, and its recommendations, in the middle of next year. In the meantime, more retractions are coming, according to Dr Califf. The results of a misconduct investigation are expected in the next few months and legal suits from patients who believe they were recruited into clinical trials under false pretences will probably follow.

    The whole thing, then, is a mess. Who will carry the can remains to be seen. But the episode does serve as a timely reminder of one thing that is sometimes forgotten. Scientists are human, too.



    Correction: This article originally stated that by the end of 2010 officials at Duke University began the process of retracting five papers. That should have been three papers. This was corrected on September 8th.

    http://www.economist.com/node/21528593
    ----------------------------------------------------------


    The peer review process is not without its faults, and "groupthink" is a possibility in any field. This is why I give some moderately small chance that the "skeptics" repeated claims that they are shut out of this process from the get go may have a grain of truth to them.

    That said, the overall quality of assertions about the science that I have seen here and elsewhere from skeptics is very damning. Bad science, ty logic, and obvious political motivation do not make for papers that would stand up to any fair, competant review.

    I am for any improvements to the peer review process that encourage openness and transparency as a way to both address the legitimate skeptics, as well as more clearly show the political hacks like the ones who post here for what they are, i.e. unfair dogmatics.

    After having read the above article, I am a bit more inclined to give some credence to the criticisms of peer review leveled by the legitimate skeptics of AGW. I am, however, very mindful of the way the political hacks will attempt to magnify anything that they think proves their case beyond all reasonable weight, the "climategate" emails come immediately to mind as an example.

    In the end, I am still left with a very large amount of credible scientific evidence pointing to one firm conclusion, that we are markedly affecting our climate through our emissions of GHG. I don't think the ultimate results will be the doomsday that some posit, although the ultimate affects will be unpleasant and negative. By the same token, I have seen absolutely no evidence that any attempts we might make to stave off these affects would have any real damaging affects to our economy, as the political hacks like to claim.

    Perhaps as time passes, this will change, but given that we are learning more and more about our climate each year, and the vast majority of that appears to supports AGW, I would not give that very good odds of happening.
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  16. #1691
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    He is saying that prediction methods are inaccurate but the point of the study was to find out the cause of the warming. You read all that and couldn't figure out the point of the study?

    More proof of your overwhelming stupidity. Its like Paris Hilton somehow got an engineering degree. That takes some very basic reading skills to glean even from the two sentences. Its doubly sad because Manny already pointed out similar stupid thinking in this thread along those exact same lines.

    This goes beyond willful ignorance into the realm of stupid. I can just see you staring off into space trying to figure out the logic expressions for sequences and just *durrrrrrr*.
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  17. #1692
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    He is saying that prediction methods are inaccurate but the point of the study was to find out the cause of the warming. You read all that and couldn't figure out the point of the study?
    I don't see anything about "causation" here.

    http://berkeleyearth.org/objectives.php


    The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project has the following objectives:

    1. To merge existing surface station temperature data sets into a new comprehensive raw data set with a common format that could be used for weather and climate research

    2. To review existing temperature processing algorithms for averaging, genization, and error analysis to understand both their advantages and their limitations

    3. To develop new approaches and alternative statistical methods that may be able to effectively remove some of the limitations present in existing algorithms

    4. To create and publish a new global surface temperature record and associated uncertainty analysis

    5. To provide an open platform for further analysis by publishing our complete data and software code as well as tools to aid both professional and amateur exploration of the data

    More proof of your overwhelming stupidity. Its like Paris Hilton somehow got an engineering degree. That takes some very basic reading skills to glean even from the two sentences. Its doubly sad because Manny already pointed out similar stupid thinking in this thread along those exact same lines.

    This goes beyond willful ignorance into the realm of stupid. I can just see you staring off into space trying to figure out the logic expressions for sequences and just *durrrrrrr*.

    Ok there, captain insult.
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  18. #1693
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I don't see anything about "causation" here.

    http://berkeleyearth.org/objectives.php


    OK there, captain insult.
    Wow, you're right. i can admit it.

    That being said i do not get your hmm statement especially after you just linked their missions statement. it makes no sense. Its funny when you correct an erroneous statement and then debase your original argument.

    Oh and i insult you all the time because you say incredibly stupid all the time and show a definite penchant for not thinking for yourself. i will continue to do so because those you allow to think for you are a bunch of selfish pricks. Do not mistake my introspection for contrition. I can just admit when I am wrong. You should try it.
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  19. #1694
    Believe.
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    Of course mankind has effected the Earth.
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  20. #1695
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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  21. #1696
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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  22. #1697
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    This certainly helps "the cause".

    Just so I understand this correctly: Scientists from other disciplines are allowed to throw their weight behind the "consensus", but their bona fides are called into question if they are skeptics? The whole thing is very cult-like.
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  23. #1698
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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  24. #1699
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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  25. #1700
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I'll bet Darrin has the same thoughts I do.

    Thank God for Global Warming or it would really be cold!
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