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  1. #2126
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Your 'reality' portion was long on generalities and very short on specifics. I am noticing a trend with you. Oh btw did you compile that yourself or where did you get it from? You have a bit of Darrin in you as well?
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  2. #2127
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Your 'reality' portion was long on generalities and very short on specifics. I am noticing a trend with you. Oh btw did you compile that yourself or where did you get it from? You have a bit of Darrin in you as well?
    I don't live here like some of you, so I don't now Darrin. Obviously it's someone you think you have discredited. You'd like to associate me with him, and discredit me by association. You guys are pathetically predictable. Sorry, I'm not swimming in your pool of logical fallacies.

    As for specifics - the water reservoirs and catchments that were supposed to be permanently dry are now flooded to overflowing. You people claim predictive science, but your predictions are proving wrong at an alarming and increasing rate. As such, you are forced to modify the science. As in, "We never, ever said 'Global Warming'. It's been 'Global Climate Change' from the very beginning."

    Too many of you are just like Boutons - the facts don't matter, because you have "right" on your side. You are absolute carbon copies of religious fanatics.
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  3. #2128
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Find me the place in the IPCC reports where it said those reservoirs would be dry at this time. Thanks.

    PS When you're done with that tell us all again how adiabatic processes don't work in saturated air. x 30498349038
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  4. #2129
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Find me the place in the IPCC reports where it said those reservoirs would be dry at this time. Thanks.
    Interesting.

    You only believe your side if the IPCC said it?

    How many times have they revised their own statements?

    Manny... You are a fool.
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  5. #2130
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    A good take on warmistas, skeptics, and deniers


    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...#ixzz1nssN7mLR


    February 29, 2012
    Climate Deniers Are Giving Us Skeptics a Bad Name


    Gallia omnia est divisa in partes tres. This phrase from Julius Gaius Caesar about the division of Gaul nicely illustrates the universe of climate scientists -- also divided into three parts. On the one side are the "warmistas," with fixed views about apocalyptic man-made global warming; at the other extreme are the "deniers." Somewhere in the middle are climate skeptics.

    In principle, every true scientist must be a skeptic. That's how we're trained; we question experiments, and we question theories. We try to repeat or independently derive what we read in publications -- just to make sure that no mistakes have been made.

    In my view, warmistas and deniers are very similar in some respects -- at least their extremists are. They have fixed ideas about climate, its change, and its cause. They both ignore "inconvenient truths" and select data and facts that support their preconceived views. Many of them are also quite intolerant and unwilling to discuss or debate these views -- and quite willing to think the worst of their opponents.

    Of course, these three categories do not have sharp boundaries; there are gradations. For example, many skeptics go along with the general conclusion of the warmistas but simply claim that the human contribution is not as large as indicated by climate models. But at the same time, they join with deniers in opposing drastic efforts to mitigate greenhouse (GH) gas emissions.

    I am going to resist the temptation to name names. But everyone working in the field knows who is a warmista, skeptic, or denier. The warmistas, generally speaking, populate the U.N.'s IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) and subscribe to its conclusion that most of the temperature increase of the last century is due to carbon-dioxide emissions produced by the use of fossil fuels. At any rate, this is the conclusion of the most recent IPCC report, the fourth in a series, published in 2007. Since I am an Expert Reviewer of IPCC, I've had an opportunity to review part of the 5th Assessment Report, due in 2013. Without revealing deep secrets, I can say that the AR5 uses essentially the same argument and evidence as AR4 -- so let me discuss this "evidence" in some detail.

    IPCC-AR4 uses only the global surface temperature (GST) record (shown in fig. 9.5 on page 648). It exhibits a rapid rise in 1910-1940, a slight decline in 1940-1975, a sharp "jump" around 1976-77 -- and then a steady increase up to 2000 (except for the temperature " e" of the 1998 Super-El Niño). No increase is seen after about 2001.

    Most everyone seems to agree that this earlier increase (1910-1940) is caused by natural forces whose nature the IPCC does not specify. Clearly, the decline of 1940-1975 does not fit the picture of an increasing level of carbon dioxide, nor do the "jump" and " e." So the IPCC uses the increase between 1978 and 2000 as evidence for human (anthropogenic) global warming (AGW).

    Their argument is somewhat strained, and their evidence is questionable. They claim that their models simulating the temperature history of the 20th century show no warming between 1970 and 2000 -- when they omit the warming effect of the steady, slow CO2 increase. But once they add the CO2 increase into the models, they claim good agreement with the reported global surface temperature record. Ergo evidence for AGW.

    There are three things wrong with the IPCC argument. It depends very much on detailed and somewhat arbitrary choices of model inputs -- e.g., the properties and effects of atmospheric aerosols, and their temporal and geographic distribution. It also makes arbitrary assumptions about clouds and water vapor, which produce the most important greenhouse forcings. One might therefore say that the IPCC's evidence is nothing more than an exercise in curve-fitting. According to physicist Freeman Dyson, the famous mathematician John von Neumann stated: "Give me four adjustable parameters and I can fit an elephant. Give me one more, and I can make his trunk wiggle."

    The second question: can the IPCC fit other climate records of importance besides the reported global surface record? For example, can they fit northern and southern hemisphere temperatures using the same assumptions in their models about aerosols, clouds, and water vapor? Can they fit the atmospheric temperature record as obtained from satellites, and also from radiosondes carried in weather balloons? The IPCC report does not show such results, and one therefore suspects that their curve-fitting exercise may not work, except with the global surface record.

    The third problem may be the most important and likely also the most contested one. But first let me parse the IPCC conclusion, which depends crucially on the reported global surface warming between 1978 and 2000. As stated in their Summary for Policymakers (IPCC-AR4, vol 1, page 10): "Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations."

    But what if there is little to no warming between 1978 and 2000? What if the data from thousands of poorly distributed weather stations do not represent a true global warming? The atmospheric temperature record between 1978 and 2000 (both from satellites and, independently, from radiosondes) doesn't show a warming. Neither does the ocean. And even the so-called proxy record -- from tree rings, ice cores, ocean sediments, corals, stalagmites, etc. -- shows mostly no warming during the same period.

    Now let me turn to the deniers. One of their favorite arguments is that the greenhouse effect does not exist at all because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics -- i.e., one cannot transfer energy from a cold atmosphere to a warmer surface. It is surprising that this simplistic argument is used by physicists, and even by professors who teach thermodynamics. One can show them data of downwelling infrared radiation from CO2, water vapor, and clouds, which clearly impinge on the surface. But their minds are closed to any such evidence.

    Then there is another group of deniers who accept the existence of the greenhouse effect but argue about the cause and effect of the observed increase of atmospheric carbon dioxide. One subgroup holds that CO2 levels were much higher in the 19th century, so there really hasn't been a long-term increase from human activities. They even believe in a conspiracy to suppress these facts. Another subgroup accepts that CO2 levels are increasing in the 20th century but claims that the source is release of dissolved CO2 from the warming ocean. In other words, they argue that oceans warm first, which then causes the CO2 increase. In fact, such a phenomenon is observed in the ice-core record, where sudden temperature increases precede increases in CO2. While this fact is a good argument against the story put forth by Al Gore, it does not apply to the 20th century: isotopic and other evidence destroys their case.

    Another subgroup simply says that the concentration of atmospheric CO2 is so small that they can't see how it could possibly change global temperature. But laboratory data show that CO2 absorbs IR radiation very strongly. Another subgroup says that natural annual additions to atmospheric CO2 are many times greater than any human source; they ignore the natural sinks that have kept CO2 reasonably constant before humans started burning fossil fuels. Finally, there are the claims that major volcanic eruptions produce the equivalent of many years of human emission from fossil-fuel burning. To which I reply: OK, but show me a step increase in measured atmospheric CO2 related to a volcanic eruption.

    I have concluded that we can accomplish very little with convinced warmistas and probably even less with true deniers. So we just make our measurements, perfect our theories, publish our work, and hope that in time the truth will out.

    •"The data doesn't matter. We're not basing our recommendations on the data. We're basing them on the climate models." -Prof. Chris Folland, Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

    •"The models are convenient fictions that provide something very useful." -Dr David Frame, Climate modeler, Oxford University

    •"It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true." -Paul Watson, Co-founder of Greenpeace

    •"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen." -Sir John Houghton, First chairman of the IPCC

    •"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony ... climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world." -Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment
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  6. #2131
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I don't live here like some of you, so I don't now Darrin. Obviously it's someone you think you have discredited. You'd like to associate me with him, and discredit me by association. You guys are pathetically predictable. Sorry, I'm not swimming in your pool of logical fallacies.

    As for specifics - the water reservoirs and catchments that were supposed to be permanently dry are now flooded to overflowing. You people claim predictive science, but your predictions are proving wrong at an alarming and increasing rate. As such, you are forced to modify the science. As in, "We never, ever said 'Global Warming'. It's been 'Global Climate Change' from the very beginning."

    Too many of you are just like Boutons - the facts don't matter, because you have "right" on your side. You are absolute carbon copies of religious fanatics.
    You need to learn what association implies. The association that i made was on the basis of behavior ie you do the same actions he does not that you are him or that you hang out with him.

    And as i have pointed out, you are long on generalities and short on facts. NASA, NIST, BEST etc all say that its warming. You try to frame this bull as if we are claiming that the temperature is not going up. You accuse people of trying to frame the debate and then try and fixate completely on a specific locality and once again refuse to talk in anything other than generalities. Similar to the mailer that you quoted a couple of days ago.

    How about you answer the question though its quite specific: where did you get the compilation of the news reports because it reads very much like a Guardian mailer. I equated that to Darrin because him quoting said mailers and then not attributing then to the source is something he does. That is a very specific behavior and not a general association.
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  7. #2132
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Other articles on the main page of Darrin's blog:

    Obama and the End of American Exceptionalism

    Ten Indications That Obama Is Scared

    Socialism without Guns

    Strangling American Capitalism with the Zuckerberg Tax

    Infanticide on Demand

    That last one is awesome as it of course evokes Nazis.
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  8. #2133
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    You need to learn what association implies. The association that i made was on the basis of behavior ie you do the same actions he does not that you are him or that you hang out with him.

    And as i have pointed out, you are long on generalities and short on facts. NASA, NIST, BEST etc all say that its warming. You try to frame this bull as if we are claiming that the temperature is not going up. You accuse people of trying to frame the debate and then try and fixate completely on a specific locality and once again refuse to talk in anything other than generalities. Similar to the mailer that you quoted a couple of days ago.

    How about you answer the question though its quite specific: where did you get the compilation of the news reports because it reads very much like a Guardian mailer. I equated that to Darrin because him quoting said mailers and then not attributing then to the source is something he does. That is a very specific behavior and not a general association.


    Where do you get your information? Lol "mailers".


    Yes, the surface temp (as measured by land stations) does show a small increase. The stations are not well distributed and are mostly in the US and Western Europe. If those stations represent the entire globe (land is only 30% of the Earth), then I suppose the entire globe has warmed.
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  9. #2134
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Other articles on the main page of Darrin's blog:

    Obama and the End of American Exceptionalism

    Ten Indications That Obama Is Scared

    Socialism without Guns

    Strangling American Capitalism with the Zuckerberg Tax

    Infanticide on Demand

    That last one is awesome as it of course evokes Nazis.

    None of those articles are written by Fred Singer. You fail -- again.


    http://www.americanthinker.com/s_fred_singer/
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  10. #2135
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Where do you get your information? Lol "mailers".


    Yes, the surface temp (as measured by land stations) does show a small increase. The stations are not well distributed and are mostly in the US and Western Europe. If those stations represent the entire globe (land is only 30% of the Earth), then I suppose the entire globe has warmed.
    BEST wrote a nice refutation to that old denier schtick where they quantified your assertions and found the claim unfounded but by all means repeat it. Additionally the BEST data was not only from those stations as you damn well know and yes mailers ie those things the Guardian sends you and you are kind enough to quote and 'borrow' from yet often fail to link.

    an example would be the one that you got and quoted a graph from claiming was from BEST when in fact it was numbers compiled using unknown methods from the Guardian but you claimed came from BEST anyway.

    You refused to link the source and kept on repeating that it was from BEST until someone else linked the mailer and you just went away.

    its pretty obvious that you get your 'science' from places like the American Thinker who is a blatant political blog and oil and mining interests ie Heritage, Koch and the Guardian. Your a ing tool and a lying one to boot.

    Bravo!
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  11. #2136
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    None of those articles are written by Fred Singer. You fail -- again.


    http://www.americanthinker.com/s_fred_singer/
    I cited the type of material your blog also puts out so people can have context. If they want context on that guy then why didn't you link his works too:

    Climate Deniers Are Giving Us Skeptics a Bad Name
    Obama Skins the Cat
    The Heartland Ins ute Flap
    Hormuz Hysteria
    Fake! Fake! Fake! Fake!
    Durban Climate Conference: The Dream Fades
    Why BEST Will Not Settle the Climate Debate
    Cain's Valuable 9-9-9 Plan
    EPA's CO2 Endangerment Finding is Endangered
    A World Food Crisis?
    Science and Smear Merchants

    Yeah he seems like a really objective source doesn't he?

    You call me fail. I call you a deceptive piece of .
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  12. #2137
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    Arctic Death Spiral Continues: Thick, Multi-Year Sea Ice Melting Faster, NASA Study Finds

    “The average thickness of the Arctic sea ice cover is declining because it is rapidly losing its thick component, the multi-year ice. At the same time, the surface temperature in the Arctic is going up, which results in a shorter ice-forming season,”





    http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/0...elting-faster/
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  13. #2138
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I cited the type of material your blog also puts out so people can have context. If they want context on that guy then why didn't you link his works too:

    Climate Deniers Are Giving Us Skeptics a Bad Name
    Obama Skins the Cat
    The Heartland Ins ute Flap
    Hormuz Hysteria
    Fake! Fake! Fake! Fake!
    Durban Climate Conference: The Dream Fades
    Why BEST Will Not Settle the Climate Debate
    Cain's Valuable 9-9-9 Plan
    EPA's CO2 Endangerment Finding is Endangered
    A World Food Crisis?
    Science and Smear Merchants

    Yeah he seems like a really objective source doesn't he?

    You call me fail. I call you a deceptive piece of .


    I posted a link, you stupid .

    "Yeah he seems like a really objective source doesn't he?"

    Would he be objective if he agreed with the IPCC?
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  14. #2139
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I posted a link, you stupid .

    "Yeah he seems like a really objective source doesn't he?"

    Would he be objective if he agreed with the IPCC?
    That has nothing to do with it. The point is that with his Obama jab and the obvious political rightwing rhetoric of the rest of his fellow bloggers its obvious where he comes from. He is a political commentator and not anything science related.

    By linking his actual blog les I demonstrated clearly that Flinger is obviously the same as the rest of the blog. WUWWT, Guardian, American Thinker, Guardian, Heritage et al is where you get your ideology from.

    You know its ed up and frowned upon so you try obfuscation rather then get ridiculed. Your methods are now transparent just as my methods of an off the cuff adversarial asshole are transparent.

    Deal with it.
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  15. #2140
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    BEST wrote a nice refutation to that old denier schtick where they quantified your assertions and found the claim unfounded but by all means repeat it. Additionally the BEST data was not only from those stations as you damn well know and yes mailers ie those things the Guardian sends you and you are kind enough to quote and 'borrow' from yet often fail to link.
    http://berkeleyearth.org/faq/#about


    It appears that Berkeley Earth's analysis shows a temperature rise greater than others had previously published. Is this so? Can you explain?

    Berkeley Earth has not yet begun to analyze ocean temperatures (we hope to do this in the next year), so the plotted data is land only. Land warms more than oceans, so when we include the ocean we expect the total global warming to be less.

    ...

    They also don't include satellite data.
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  16. #2141
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    You refused to link the source and kept on repeating that it was from BEST until someone else linked the mailer and you just went away.

    its pretty obvious that you get your 'science' from places like the American Thinker who is a blatant political blog and oil and mining interests ie Heritage, Koch and the Guardian. Your a ing tool and a lying one to boot.

    Bravo!

    http://berkeleyearth.org/donors/



    The Lee and Juliet Folger Fund ($20,000)
    William K. Bowes, Jr. Foundation ($100,000)
    Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research (created by Bill Gates) ($100,000)
    Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation ($150,000) The Ann & Gordon Getty Foundation ($50,000)
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  17. #2142
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    That has nothing to do with it. The point is that with his Obama jab and the obvious political rightwing rhetoric of the rest of his fellow bloggers its obvious where he comes from. He is a political commentator and not anything science related.

    By linking his actual blog les I demonstrated clearly that Flinger is obviously the same as the rest of the blog. WUWWT, Guardian, American Thinker, Guardian, Heritage et al is where you get your ideology from.

    You know its ed up and frowned upon so you try obfuscation rather then get ridiculed. Your methods are now transparent just as my methods of an off the cuff adversarial asshole are transparent.

    Deal with it.



    As opposed to the VERY objective, and non-partisan, non-activist, James Hansen







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  18. #2143
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    http://berkeleyearth.org/faq/#about




    They also don't include satellite data.
    You conveniently left out the rest of the FAQ bullet point that went right to the heart of your assertion that initially had me bring up BEST:

    We started with the land data for several reasons:

    It is the data that is most greatly affected by the most contentious issues: data selection bias, urban heat island, and station integrity issues. These are major concerns that we wanted to address.
    The temperature rise on land is greater than in the oceans, greatly due to the oceans distribution of heat over the mixed layer thereby reducing the temperature rise. Because land keeps the heat mostly on the surface, the land temperature is actually more sensitive to greenhouse gases than is the world temperature.
    With 1.6 billion measurements, culling land temperature data was a major effort. It made sense to divide the project into two stages.
    And address them they did. Noone questions the ocean surface temperatures its only dip s like WC that claim that the ehat is coming from the deep ocean and not from the sun.

    OTOH, you did not address their rebuttal but instead simply restated the original refutation. Its always the same from you.
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  19. #2144
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    As opposed to the VERY objective, and non-partisan, non-activist, James Hansen







    You should have included an Al Gore pic too. Same different day.
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  20. #2145
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    http://berkeleyearth.org/donors/



    The Lee and Juliet Folger Fund ($20,000)
    William K. Bowes, Jr. Foundation ($100,000)
    Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research (created by Bill Gates) ($100,000)
    Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation ($150,000) The Ann & Gordon Getty Foundation ($50,000)
    Yeah remember when it was big news because of what BEST eventually concluded. Shall we look at the material from the rest of what they sponsor or you just going to try and frame it more like this?

    You don't even want to discuss science and Im bored. Later, liar.
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  21. #2146
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    You conveniently left out the rest of the FAQ bullet point that went right to the heart of your assertion that initially had me bring up BEST:
    I was the first person to bring up BEST in this entire thread. I like what they are doing, but they have only used LAND DATA to date. You fail -- again.
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  22. #2147
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Yeah remember when it was big news because of what BEST eventually concluded. Shall we look at the material from the rest of what they sponsor or you just going to try and frame it more like this?

    You don't even want to discuss science and Im bored. Later, liar.

    Later self-pwnage.
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  23. #2148
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I was the first person to bring up BEST in this entire thread. I like what they are doing, but they have only used LAND DATA to date. You fail -- again.
    Do you know what BEST stands for?
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  24. #2149
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Find me the place in the IPCC reports where it said those reservoirs would be dry at this time. Thanks.

    PS When you're done with that tell us all again how adiabatic processes don't work in saturated air. x 30498349038

    Again, typical of you religious zealots. Re-write what someone says, and then tell them it's wrong.

    You wanted to pretend that a huge mass of extra-warm (because of AGW), saturated air being pushed up the Himalayas would not cause additional snow melt. And the reason, you said, was because of adiabatic cooling. As if the magic of adiabatic cooling could account for all that localized heat. That's absolutely juvenile.

    Of course adiabatic cooling works in saturated air. But you siezed on adiabatic cooling because there is no heat transfer. I think you're smart enough to know that it can't account for everything that would happen in the scenario you described - especially with fully saturated air. You just didn't expect anyone to call you on it.

    I never said the process doesn't work... did I? Just that you trying to use that to explain the "disappearance" of all that heat was ridiculously stupid. And I don't think you're stupid - just disingenuous.

    So instead, you also chose the logical fallacy route, just like FuzzyLump. (Who could have guessed.) You created a straw man, and proceeded to knock it down. But it's your own argument you knocked down, not mine. I laughed at your use of "adiabatic process" like it's some kind of magic that makes all the heat in the world just disappear. You want to use warming when it suits you, and disregard it when it's inconvenient. Just like all the other religious zealots.
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  25. #2150
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Do you know what BEST stands for?
    Yes. Are oceans part of the Earth's surface?
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