Consumer reports "Volt doesn't really make sense"

[Wild Cobra]

Ever drive or work on a KIA...

No, never wanted one. Too small for my taste.

[RandomGuy]

Well, if I take 15,000 annual miles for 5 years, that's 75,000 miles. 75,000 miles is 3,000 gallons at 25 MPG and 750 gallons at 100 MPG. The difference is 2,250 gallons which would need to be at $8.89 per gallon to make it work.

I use 5 years because of my expected lifespan of the batteries. Have different numbers?

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

[Wild Cobra]

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

Yes, and who knows. Maybe within 5 years, batteries will be more reliable and cheaper. Some of them have toxic waste issues during development, recycling, and/or disposal. Funny how as expensive they are, we buy the batteries from other countries. How much would they be if they were manufactures under OSHA and EPA requirements? What type of ecological damage are we encouraging other countries to take?

[RandomGuy]

First off, to quantify it? Too many variables.

As for the 2%... Doesn't matter. When you are at the edge of supply vs. demand, a very small change in either make a relatively large change in price.

As for government limiting our production... Come on. Don't tell me you don't believe that.

Your assertion, your burden of proof.

I have no doubt that environmental regulations limit the amount of energy we dig up/drill to some small degree.

You imply that degree is very large, and use that for the underlying assumption of your question.

I'm not asking for a down to the joule measurement, but a rough %.

How much higher would our fossil fuel production be in your mind if the big bad government would just get out of the way, as you advocate? 10%, 20%, etc?

What strains credibility is your seeming assertion that a country holding reserves of 2% of global supply could ever increase production enough to make a dent in overall global oil supplies.

As I said, either you can start to flesh out your assertion, or you can't prove it to some reasonable degree.

The burden is yours.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, and who knows. Maybe within 5 years, batteries will be more reliable and cheaper. Some of them have toxic waste issues during development, recycling, and/or disposal. Funny how as expensive they are, we buy the batteries from other countries. How much would they be if they were manufactures under OSHA and EPA requirements? What type of ecological damage are we encouraging other countries to take?

A lot. We do similar for lead-acid batteries we use in our cars now, and for oil spills in all the places that drill for oil for the global market.

[MannyIsGod]

I would have thought it was common sense that if your main goal is to save money then a 40k vehicle is not your best option. That might just be my amazing analytical skills at work though.

[boutons_deux]

"40k vehicle is not your best option"

TCO is the calculation, not purchase price

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, if I take 15,000 annual miles for 5 years, that's 75,000 miles. 75,000 miles is 3,000 gallons at 25 MPG and 750 gallons at 100 MPG. The difference is 2,250 gallons which would need to be at $8.89 per gallon to make it work.

I use 5 years because of my expected lifespan of the batteries. Have different numbers?

Whoops...my bad. I was using a Purchase price differential of $10,000 instead of $20,000.

[Sportcamper]

Purchasing a Volt has nothing to do about saving money…It is about saving the planet…Getting a leg up on electric vehicles which are here to stay…Not to mention cashing in on the 7500 Federal tax credit…

[coyotes_geek]

Purchasing a Volt has nothing to do about saving money…It is about saving the planet…Getting a leg up on electric vehicles which are here to stay…Not to mention cashing in on the 7500 Federal tax credit…

That's the biggest problem with the Volt. It costs taxpayers another $7,500 everytime GM sells one.

[TeyshaBlue]

Woof. Figure in that tax credit and my initial estimate was not too far off.

[Sportcamper]

Someone at work purchased the Nissan version…And there is nowhere to plug it in once he gets here…At least the Volt has more range…

[Drachen]

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

What is being missed here is that in practice, most people are going to get better than 100 mpg. I know that if I owned one, It would be extremely rare that I use gas, if at all. So the gasoline costs would fall dramatically. However there would be an increase in electricity costs so one would need to find out the difference THERE, then use that difference to calculate the difference between the volt and an internal combustion engine.

Also, I read an environmental impact study on the life cycle impact of an electric car with a Lithium Ion battery that said the only way an internal combustion vehicle could compete in that area would be to get about 70 mpg.

I do, however agree with the premise of the article and I think the Leaf is a much better option anyway since it makes more fiscal and environmental sense. Leading to this truism. . .

I would have thought it was common sense that if your main goal is to save money then a 40k vehicle is not your best option. That might just be my amazing analytical skills at work though.

They teach you that in New Mexico? Their standards must be rising!

[RandomGuy]

No.

They went by regulations. Consumer needs to always be aware. The free market I'm talking about is that of actual tangible material and design. One that there are actual buyers and sellers.

You can find bad examples in any system. That doesn't make it the norm for all.

Unless of course the system you are talking about is related to a social safety net, then one bad example means the whole system is wrong.

Cognitive, meet dissonance.

[RandomGuy]

Stop making the corporation [sic] reliant on government incentives and subsidies.

Tariffs are in the constitution for a reason, [like protecting domestic firms from superior or cheaper foriegn products with incentives to be inefficient]

Dissonance, meet cognitive

[Wild Cobra]

Purchasing a Volt has nothing to do about saving money…It is about saving the planet…Getting a leg up on electric vehicles which are here to stay…Not to mention cashing in on the 7500 Federal tax credit…

Well, considering who makes the batteries and the environmental impact that likely occurs, seems to me it's more of a "feel good" thing rather than reality.

Am I wrong?

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, you are wrong.

[Drachen]

Well, considering who makes the batteries and the environmental impact that likely occurs, seems to me it's more of a "feel good" thing rather than reality.

Am I wrong?

yes

link

And remember that these are essentially first (or second if you consider the Rav4e and the GM EV1) generation electric vehicles vs. the what, 100th gen internal combustion vehicles.

[RandomGuy]

What is being missed here is that in practice, most people are going to get better than 100 mpg. I know that if I owned one, It would be extremely rare that I use gas, if at all. So the gasoline costs would fall dramatically. However there would be an increase in electricity costs so one would need to find out the difference THERE, then use that difference to calculate the difference between the volt and an internal combustion engine.

Very good point, and one that should be noted in the debate. Since electricity in the US is supplied in no small part (51% or so, if memory serves) you are burning coal to power your car. Not the most eco-friendly trade off, if CO2 is a concern for the consumer.

Another interesting thing that one has to consider, is how easy it would be to steal electricity.

All you have to do is find a parking spot near some building with one of those little ubiquitous external outlets and hitch up.

Or, for example, bribing an electrician to bypass your home meter for the one circuit your car happens to charge on.

A ground level apartment with utilities included would also make for a cheap "fill up".

If all you need is an extension cord to do this, yikes.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah we discussed all of this. We talked about how the average person rarely drives more than the range on a daily basis, we talked about how it would be smarter to buy a 12k compact car if you're trying to save money on gas, and pretty much everything that has been brought up.

Spurstalk is nothing if not redundant.

[TeyshaBlue]

Very good point, and one that should be noted in the debate. Since electricity in the US is supplied in no small part (51% or so, if memory serves) you are burning coal to power your car. Not the most eco-friendly trade off, if CO2 is a concern for the consumer.

Another interesting thing that one has to consider, is how easy it would be to steal electricity.

All you have to do is find a parking spot near some building with one of those little ubiquitous external outlets and hitch up.

Or, for example, bribing an electrician to bypass your home meter for the one circuit your car happens to charge on.

A ground level apartment with utilities included would also make for a cheap "fill up".

If all you need is an extension cord to do this, yikes.

Yeah, but your charging times on 120V are pretty long...so the chances of getting a full 10 hour charge that way approach zero. Even then, using 120v, a full charge on the Volt costs about $1.60 per Car and Driver. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...test-road_test

That's pretty small change to even think about policing.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah we discussed all of this. We talked about how the average person rarely drives more than the range on a daily basis, we talked about how it would be smarter to buy a 12k compact car if you're trying to save money on gas, and pretty much everything that has been brought up.

Spurstalk is nothing if not redundant.

You lie!

[Wild Cobra]

Lithium mining: cleaner than coal, but….

Now don't believe a blogger's compilation of information. How about this:

The Trouble with Lithium; Implications of Future PHEV Production for Lithium Demand; part of the executive summary:

Lithium Ion batteries are rapidly becoming the technology of choice for the next generation of Electric Vehicles - Hybrid, Plug In Hybrid and Battery EVs. The automotive industry is committed increasingly to Electrified Vehicles to provide Sustainable Mobility in the next decade. LiIon is the preferred battery technology to power these vehicles.

To achieve required cuts in oil consumption, a significant percentage of the world automobile fleet of 1 billion vehicles will be electrified in the coming decade. Ultimately all production, currently 60 Million vehicles per year, will be replaced with highly electrified vehicles – PHEVs and BEVs.

Analysis of Lithium's geological resource base shows that there is insufficient economically recoverable Lithium available in the Earth's crust to sustain Electric Vehicle manufacture in the volumes required, based solely on LiIon batteries. Depletion rates would exceed current oil depletion rates and switch dependency from one diminishing resource to another. Concentration of supply would create new geopolitical tensions, not reduce them.

The trouble with Lithium 2; Under the Microscope

Now as green vehicles go, the volt is #12 of 12:

Greenest Vehicles of 2011

Now I had a source reference for the 2/3rds freshwater thing, but closed it. Not going through my history to find it again.

[Wild Cobra]

yes

link

And remember that these are essentially first (or second if you consider the Rav4e and the GM EV1) generation electric vehicles vs. the what, 100th gen internal combustion vehicles.

Hmmmm.....

So using up 2/3rds a nations regional freshwater to be the largest supplier of lithium is not a large environmental impact?

I'll bet the fish think otherwise.

[MannyIsGod]

Its too bad you can't find that source. Searching your history would likely take less time than the reply you make to this post.

[DarrinS]

They will probably sell well in California.

[RandomGuy]

Lithium mining: cleaner than coal, but….

Now don't believe a blogger's compilation of information. How about this:

The Trouble with Lithium; Implications of Future PHEV Production for Lithium Demand; part of the executive summary:

The trouble with Lithium 2; Under the Microscope

Now as green vehicles go, the volt is #12 of 12:

Greenest Vehicles of 2011

Now I had a source reference for the 2/3rds freshwater thing, but closed it. Not going through my history to find it again.

Lithium is not depleted when used to make batteries, unlike burning oil. That statement about depletion is spurious. Not sure where the author was going.

I think the "using 2/3 water" was probably a reference to ethanol production, or possibly to that of using water at power plants.

Since 75% of the US population lives within 100 miles of coastline or something like that, I think we can probably invest some in desalinisation, or will be forced to do that.

[RandomGuy]

Bioractor units working prototypes.

Mass. company making diesel with sun, water, CO2

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A Massachusetts biotechnology company says it can produce the fuel that runs Jaguars and jet engines using the same ingredients that make grass grow.

Joule Unlimited has invented a genetically-engineered organism that it says simply secretes diesel fuel or ethanol wherever it finds sunlight, water and carbon dioxide.

The Cambridge, Mass.-based company says it can manipulate the organism to produce the renewable fuels on demand at unprecedented rates, and can do it in facilities large and small at costs comparable to the cheapest fossil fuels.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110228/...s_growing_fuel

Found that bit. They are taking a slightly different approach, read the full article for details. Not using algae but rather a different bug, with different charactoristics.

[Wild Cobra]

Yeah, but your charging times on 120V are pretty long...so the chances of getting a full 10 hour charge that way approach zero. Even then, using 120v, a full charge on the Volt costs about $1.60 per Car and Driver. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...test-road_test

That's pretty small change to even think about policing.

Yes, but that 16 kwh capacity only has a 45 mile range at optimum driving conditions, city. After that 45 miles, only gets 35 MPG... Now freeway is worse, at only 2.76 miles/kwh. How many people travel farther than maybe a 40 mile round trip, or any day. The IC engine surely kicks in before the battery is drained.

Lets just look at it the way. The Volt is rated at 2.81 miles per kwh. Many vehicles are rated at 28 MPG, so 10 kwh at 10 cents a kwh is $1.00 vs the price of a gallon of gas.

Does paying $1 per gallon equivalent work for most people when limited to 45 miles the first month, and capacity gets smaller and smaller as the battery life diminishes?

How many people have houses that can charge the thing at any decent rate anyway? What is the efficiency? The ratings above are what the car uses. Howver, it probably costs 12 KWHs or more to get a 10 KWH charge. A daily 12 KWH usage for 5 hours at 220 volts would require an 11 amp draw. Hope you turn your water heater and dryer off while charging, or rewire your house.

[ElNono]

Toyota has also had their own market and other Asian markets to develop their electrical vehicles in. They do pay more for energy there, hence, they have been able to market it better, as it makes better economic sense.

Toyota sells the bulk of their cars in the US. GM produces and sells cars in other markets as well. Car makers compete globally.