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  1. #31
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    From what I have read Officers in the military are largely Conservative for obvious reasons (think; big military budgets), but a majority of the grunts that do the dangerous work continue to lean more Progressive - after their parents political inclinations.
    From what I saw, military from top to bottom of the pay scale were mostly conservative. The civilians working for the military, however, were majority liberal.
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  2. #32
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    yeah, i'd say most of the military leans towards the republicans... bigger defense budgets equal higher pay...

    and recruiters have been lying since the beginning of time... nothing new there.

  3. #33
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    and recruiters have been lying since the beginning of time... nothing new there.
    I wasn't saying it's new, I'm saying it's bad.
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  4. #34
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    but everyone knows recruiters lie and if it is not in the contract, you are not getting it...

  5. #35
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    No, everyone doesn't know that recruiters lie. How the hell are you going to excuse a liar either way? These kids look up to the recruiters as someone who knows whats best for them. I don't mind what recrutiers do as long as they are honest with the kids. I had recruiters tell me all kinds of bullshit stories while badmouthing every other service. I knew better, but many people don't. They're so wide eyed at the shit thats told it's messed up.

    Either way, I don't know if there's much that people can do about it other than be aware and understand what you're getting yourself into.

  6. #36
    SW: Hot As Hell
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    No, everyone doesn't know that recruiters lie. How the hell are you going to excuse a liar either way? These kids look up to the recruiters as someone who knows whats best for them. I don't mind what recrutiers do as long as they are honest with the kids. I had recruiters tell me all kinds of bullshit stories while badmouthing every other service. I knew better, but many people don't. They're so wide eyed at the shit thats told it's messed up.

    Either way, I don't know if there's much that people can do about it other than be aware and understand what you're getting yourself into.
    Try out ROTC. If you don't like that then there is no point of thinking about military service. And guess what, there's not a commitment!
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  7. #37
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Try out ROTC. If you don't like that then there is no point of thinking about military service. And guess what, there's not a commitment!
    Thats great, so then we have no need for recruiters right? Because thats what ROTC is for?

  8. #38
    point it at ED209... mookie2001's Avatar
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    thats why its so fucking hilarious when they show the red/blue map and then sean hannity goes "well look at all that red!!, youre telling me this wasnt a mandate!!"
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  9. #39
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    no, ROTC is for officers.. recruiters focus on getting enlisted soldiers in...

    also, when you sign up for the military you are 17 or 18... you are not a kid anymore...

  10. #40
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    no, ROTC is for officers.. recruiters focus on getting enlisted soldiers in...

    also, when you sign up for the military you are 17 or 18... you are not a kid anymore...
    Right, Right, 18 year olds have great judgements. Especially when presented with lies.

  11. #41
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    according to you manny, no one is responsible for their own actions...

  12. #42
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I always advocate responsibilty. I just don't think things are always black and white.

    But while we're on the subject of responsibility, what do you think should happen to recruiters who lie?

  13. #43
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    nothing...they have a job to do... also, many times before you actually sign the contract you are told about recruiters lying and if it is not in your contract you most likely will not get it.. also, before you sign, you speak with a counselor who says, that many recruiters say shit and if you want to add anything to your contract you can do so now... your contract has many blank pages where you are allowed to put things in...

  14. #44
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    nothing...they have a job to do... also, many times before you actually sign the contract you are told about recruiters lying and if it is not in your contract you most likely will not get it.. also, before you sign, you speak with a counselor who says, that many recruiters say shit and if you want to add anything to your contract you can do so now... your contract has many blank pages where you are allowed to put things in...
    Let me just get this straight. You find a recruiter lying to a potential recruit an acceptable behavior, right?

  15. #45
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Let me just get this straight. You find a recruiter lying to a potential recruit an acceptable behavior, right?
    i guess you could say yes... same way car salesman bullshit you, and people in other professions.. mechanics, etc... it is up to you not to get taken...

  16. #46
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    Right, Right, 18 year olds have great judgements. Especially when presented with lies.
    Manny, I've never seen someone more confident that the nation is one big conspiracy.

    OK. I'm a veteran. I started out enlisted. Why? Because I wanted to escape the poverty of the small Minnesota town I grew up in. The Army offered me a way out and a chance to do more than just farm or work in the meat processing plant that employed most of the non-farmers in the area.

    But, I found that the military gave me something more than I expected. I went to college (funded by the military), earned a degree and became a commissioned officer.

    Did I do it based on politics? Nope.

    I did it for the dinero.

    Never once did I think that I'd been had.

    Are there bad recruiters?

    Damn straight there are!

    Recruiters are a cross section of society at large (just like nearly every group in the world). There are good ones, bad ones, ethical ones and ethically challenged ones.

    But in your world - it seems, there's a big conspiracy to screw the little guy, the minority guy and the liberal guy.

    Take off the blinders. Dump the hate. Get a clue.

  17. #47
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Steve Gilliard provides some insight on this topic...

    <snip>

    We have a volunteer army with fewer and fewer volunteers, and people reenlisting only to save their friends. There is a time limit to their ability to be in combat. They cannot serve forever. They will have to be replaced. And fewer and fewer are willing to replace them,

    What I want people to do is be honest.

    If you will not serve in Iraq, and no one you know will serve, stop expecting someone else to do what you will not.

    Therefore, it is time to stop calling for more troops, or the US to make Iraq safe. We cannot do this and even Americans are refusing to join the fight. It is time to look at your actions and realize, that despite your ideals, you oppose continuing this war. In practical terms, you have decided that this war is not worth your life or anyone you know. And million of Americans have joined you in this decision.

    So, with this fact evident, it is time to call for US troops to withdraw from Iraq. Not save it, not add more boots on the ground. You have already voted by your actions. It is time that you match it with your words.
    Steve Gilliard

  18. #48
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    And another great article from Harold Meyerson of the Washington Post about why a lack of anti-war movement is ultimately hurting the WH...

    Wednesday, June 22, 2005; Page A21

    "In the absence of an antiwar movement, the American people have turned against the war in Iraq. Those two facts, I suspect, are connected...There was a very real antiwar movement early on. In the months before, during and immediately after our invasion, hundreds of thousands of Americans took to the streets to oppose the intervention. Then chaos, followed by insurgency, enveloped Iraq, and the need for a constable to restore some order became indisputable. Those who had opposed the war -- this columnist included -- argued that the occupation would be less of a lightning rod if conducted by an international force under U.N. aegis. But the Bush administration insisted on U.S. control (a decision that grows less explicable with each passing day), and other nations with real armies made clear that they wanted no part of what was becoming a bloody occupation.


    Confronted with a choice between U.S. occupation and chaos, millions of Americans -- chiefly liberals and Democrats -- who'd been against the war decided to give occupation a chance. In the streets, demonstrations dwindled; in Congress, Democrats (save for a handful) did not call for withdrawal. With unprecedented discipline, Democrats who had opposed the war lined up behind the candidacy of John Kerry, whose position on the war was muddled at best. The question of the occupation fell off the liberal agenda. At the Take Back America conference, a national gathering of liberals held this month, the issue barely came up at all....

    ....disapproval was key to Nixon's political strategy. He didn't so much defend the war as attack its critics, making common cause with what he termed the "silent majority" against a mainstream movement with a large, raucous and sometimes senseless fringe. When Nixon won reelection in a landslide, it was clear that the strategy had worked -- and it has been fundamental Republican strategy ever since. Though the public sides with the Democrats on more key issues than it does with Republicans, it's Republicans who have won more elections, in good measure because the GOP has raised its ad hominem attacks on Democrats' character and patriotism to a science.

    Which is why, however perverse this may sound, the absence of an antiwar movement is proving to be a huge political problem for the Bush administration, and why the Republicans are reduced to trying to turn Dick Durbin, who criticized our policies at Guantanamo Bay, into some enemy of the people. The administration has no one to demonize. With nobody blocking the troop trains, military recruitment is collapsing of its own accord. With nobody in the streets, the occupation is being judged on its own merits...Unable to distract people from his own performance, Bush is tanking in the polls. And with congressional Democrats at least partly muting their opposition to an open-ended occupation, it's Bush's fellow Republicans -- most prominently, North Carolina's Walter Jones -- who are now calling our policy into question...."

  19. #49
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Manny, I've never seen someone more confident that the nation is one big conspiracy.

    OK. I'm a veteran. I started out enlisted. Why? Because I wanted to escape the poverty of the small Minnesota town I grew up in. The Army offered me a way out and a chance to do more than just farm or work in the meat processing plant that employed most of the non-farmers in the area.

    But, I found that the military gave me something more than I expected. I went to college (funded by the military), earned a degree and became a commissioned officer.

    Did I do it based on politics? Nope.

    I did it for the dinero.

    Never once did I think that I'd been had.

    Are there bad recruiters?

    Damn straight there are!

    Recruiters are a cross section of society at large (just like nearly every group in the world). There are good ones, bad ones, ethical ones and ethically challenged ones.

    But in your world - it seems, there's a big conspiracy to screw the little guy, the minority guy and the liberal guy.

    Take off the blinders. Dump the hate. Get a clue.
    And I've never seen someone so unadept at reading. Where did the word conspiracy even come up? In fact, I talked about something that has no chance of being labeled a conspiracy because it's only about the goals of one person: a recruiter.

    Now, I understand that you aren't a very smart person and that you simply regurgitate what you've been fed by society your entire life, but I don't see how even you could reach a conclusion that I was talking about a conspiracy at any point in any post in this thread.

    I acknowledge that recrutiers have a place and that my beef was only with those who lied. You go on to say things I agreed with in my very first post.

    What hate? You want me to dump the hate of recruiters he lie? Well, I won't do it. And I think anyone in here who thinks recruiters lying to kids - or 18 year olds if you want to be technical about it - is ok, I think thats bullshit.

    I need to take off the blinders? Please, YOU are the one with red white and blue blinders on your head. The US is a great place but that doesn't give it a free pass on its faults with me. That doesn't mean I am trying to fight a conspiracy, that simply means I'm not going to get complacent and thats far from a bad thing.

    Get a fucking grip man.

  20. #50
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    i guess you could say yes... same way car salesman bullshit you, and people in other professions.. mechanics, etc... it is up to you not to get taken...
    Really? Because there are laws that protect you against liars, and perjury happens to be illegal as well.

    Don't ever try to tell me shit about responsibility anymore. You're willing to give anyone who does something you agree with a free pass.

    I have a question for the parents in here. I always get the proverbial "You will understand when you have kids" card played on me, so answer this for me.

    How would you feel if a recruiter lied to your child?

  21. #51
    point it at ED209... mookie2001's Avatar
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    I always get the proverbial "You will understand when you have kids" card played on me, so answer this for me.

    yes me too! like no other, jesus youd think if you didnt have kids you have no right to have an opinion on anything but microwave dinners, marijuana and jam bands

  22. #52
    Believe.
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    And I've never seen someone so unadept at reading. Where did the word conspiracy even come up? In fact, I talked about something that has no chance of being labeled a conspiracy because it's only about the goals of one person: a recruiter.

    Now, I understand that you aren't a very smart person and that you simply regurgitate what you've been fed by society your entire life, but I don't see how even you could reach a conclusion that I was talking about a conspiracy at any point in any post in this thread.

    I acknowledge that recrutiers have a place and that my beef was only with those who lied. You go on to say things I agreed with in my very first post.

    What hate? You want me to dump the hate of recruiters he lie? Well, I won't do it. And I think anyone in here who thinks recruiters lying to kids - or 18 year olds if you want to be technical about it - is ok, I think thats bullshit.

    I need to take off the blinders? Please, YOU are the one with red white and blue blinders on your head. The US is a great place but that doesn't give it a free pass on its faults with me. That doesn't mean I am trying to fight a conspiracy, that simply means I'm not going to get complacent and thats far from a bad thing.

    Get a fucking grip man.

    The conspiracy that you're seeing everywhere doesn't have to be named, Manny. It's clear that you see everything as one big plot (we call that a conspiracy in the multi-syllabic world) to hose the little guy.

    Now, I know that your inability to find meaningful employment has likely made you bitter at The Man, but it has more to do with your butt being stuck to the couch during Jerry Springer than it does with anything else.


  23. #53
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    The conspiracy that you're seeing everywhere doesn't have to be named, Manny. It's clear that you see everything as one big plot (we call that a conspiracy in the multi-syllabic world) to hose the little guy.

    Now, I know that your inability to find meaningful employment has likely made you bitter at The Man, but it has more to do with your butt being stuck to the couch during Jerry Springer than it does with anything else.



    You know I'm at work right now right?

  24. #54
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    The conspiracy that you're seeing everywhere doesn't have to be named, Manny. It's clear that you see everything as one big plot (we call that a conspiracy in the multi-syllabic world) to hose the little guy.

    Now, I know that your inability to find meaningful employment has likely made you bitter at The Man, but it has more to do with your butt being stuck to the couch during Jerry Springer than it does with anything else.

    Translation:

    I can't explain what I'm talking about so I'll just say you believe in a conspiracy.

    Ok, whatever floats your boat.

  25. #55
    point it at ED209... mookie2001's Avatar
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    weak gopher

  26. #56
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Really? Because there are laws that protect you against liars, and perjury happens to be illegal as well.

    Don't ever try to tell me shit about responsibility anymore. You're willing to give anyone who does something you agree with a free pass.

    I have a question for the parents in here. I always get the proverbial "You will understand when you have kids" card played on me, so answer this for me.

    How would you feel if a recruiter lied to your child?
    18 years old is a child to you? not to me... by 18 he will be required to start supporting himself...

    salesman lie all the time... many professions have liars... i'm not saying all recruiters lie, but many embellish or promise things they have no control over... it is up to each and every individual to decide for themselves if they feel they are being lied to...

  27. #57
    point it at ED209... mookie2001's Avatar
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    youd just think recruiters who are supposed to be "honorable" wouldnt lie

  28. #58
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    everyone should be, but many people aren't, right mr weed smoker? that is illegal... you are a baaaaad little boy!

  29. #59
    point it at ED209... mookie2001's Avatar
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    ^being illegal doesnt make it dishonorable, and visa versa

  30. #60
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    Really? Because there are laws that protect you against liars, and perjury happens to be illegal as well.

    Don't ever try to tell me shit about responsibility anymore. You're willing to give anyone who does something you agree with a free pass.

    I have a question for the parents in here. I always get the proverbial "You will understand when you have kids" card played on me, so answer this for me.

    How would you feel if a recruiter lied to your child?
    I should hope that my child would never be dumb enough to believe everything a recruiter says. My recruiter didn't lie to me. He told me how things really were. They aren't all like that, though, and if one did lie to my kids I probably wouldn't even be surprised enough to be upset about it. They shouldn't, it's too bad they do, but all you can do is warn them beforehand. It's a fact of life, like death and taxes.

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