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  1. #51
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Woooow ! Really ? Nooooo . . .

    Check this game:
    http://www.nba.com/games/20110425/SASMEM/gameinfo.html

    Keep in mind that that game put the Grizzlies 3:1, and only few teams ever recovered from that.

    In that game Splitter played more than Bonner. He put solid stats actually, but after he entered the game, the difference became insurmountable.
    The Spurs were up by 3 when Splitter first came into the game that you just linked above, and they were up by 3 when Duncan came back in. Maybe I misunderstood your original post, because you made it sound like Splitter caused the Grizzlies to blow open the game. I know you aren't talking about when Splitter came in during the third quarter because that was when the aforementioned Matt Bonner came in at the same time and Darrell Arthur abused Bonner for like 12 straight points. If that were the case then I'd have to accuse you of fiction, right?

  2. #52
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    Do you all think any of the Spurs players (specifically the Big 3) ever complain to Coach Pop about Bonner playing so many minutes, and about Splitter not playing enough minutes?

    I've often wondered about this but have no idea what the dynamics are like in the Spurs locker room. I can only try to draw a parallel to my experience in corporate America. Often, I see unproductive suck-up weasels (Bonner) get promotions, while productive and promising workers (Splitter) get the shaft.

    In my situation, my co-workers and I don't make waves by complaining to the boss for fear of retaliation or getting fired. But in the Spurs locker room, they are all millionaires. They (the Big 3) have no fear of getting fired, so they should have no fear in standing up for what they think would most benefit the team.

    So the question is: Do the Big 3 not have enough sac to stand up to Coach Pop, or do they agree with Pop that Bonner is a better option?

  3. #53
    Veteran roycrikside's Avatar
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    Coaches have their growing pains as rookies, hit their peak and then eventually start to lose it, just like players do. It's really not that different. Pop lost his fastball a long time ago, and anyone who argues otherwise is not paying attention. A coach can't be in one place more than 10 years. They need to recharge their batteries, ride/trust new star players, get a change of scenery.

    The reason Phil Jackson had a longer peak than Pop is because he left the Bulls after eight years. He took a break. He changed coasts, changed stars, changed everything.

    Pop stayed and stayed and stayed. He can't accept that his veteran stars are all in decline (especially Tim). He needs to trust young big men to help Tim out, but he won't. Same , different day.

    He's got way too much power in the organization. Any competent owner/GM would've pretty much ordered him to play Tiago 35 mins a night by now. Leonard too. Not only are these guys the future, but they're two of the five most talented players on the team.

    Playing guys like Bonner and RJ minutes over them is kind of absurd. That's just paying salary over performance, which is a sign that your team has poor leadership and doesn't prioritize winning above all else.

  4. #54
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    That's good to know he's improving. I'm thinking if he can at least match Blair's post play I think its time for Pop to move him into the starting lineup. Which shouldn't be that terribly difficult, sounds like he's already well past Blair's level and only getting better as his confidence improves.
    One of the problems the second team has is scoring. One of the problems Blair has is that the guy against him puts up MVP type numbers. Having Blair playing against the second team for part of his minutes mitigates that a bit, because we know that Blair can score in various ways and if he doesn't have an MVP cancelling that out, it's an improvement.

  5. #55
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    One of the problems the second team has is scoring. One of the problems Blair has is that the guy against him puts up MVP type numbers. Having Blair playing against the second team for part of his minutes mitigates that a bit, because we know that Blair can score in various ways and if he doesn't have an MVP cancelling that out, it's an improvement.
    Good point, and I'm also thinking when Manu comes back he could possibly bolster that 2nd unit even more, everyone knows Blair's effectiveness goes up when he's on the court with MG.

    Pop would need to talk to him now though and get him in the proper mindset.

  6. #56
    Veteran dunkman's Avatar
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    The Spurs were up by 3 when Splitter first came into the game that you just linked above, and they were up by 3 when Duncan came back in. Maybe I misunderstood your original post, because you made it sound like Splitter caused the Grizzlies to blow open the game. I know you aren't talking about when Splitter came in during the third quarter because that was when the aforementioned Matt Bonner came in at the same time and Darrell Arthur abused Bonner for like 12 straight points. If that were the case then I'd have to accuse you of fiction, right?
    Bonner would had +/- of -14, instead of Splitter, if that were the case. During the 12-0 run starting the third quarter, Arthur made no points. Splitter was replaced by Dice after 8 Grizzlies points + 1 ft they made too. The Grizzlies didn't make such runs again, but 10 pts in playoffs can be enough to seal a game.

    Various players didn't show-up that game, it's not only on Splitter and he was a rookie than. But as advanced stats suggest, putting Splitter in the line up will not necessarily solve all Spurs problems.

    BTW, timvp made a quality post.

  7. #57
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    Good write up and research... initial reaction to those numbers is pretty much the same as Manu4Tres.. he is more often than not playing with bench players which would naturally bring the offense down.

    Besides.. im sure the 2012 Thunder would be a better offensive team with Jeff Green at the 4 rather than one of Ibaka or Perkins. Its about balance. Spurs need to improve their defense.
    Excellent writeup, timvp. You put to words alot of Spurs fans frustrations.

    @mystargtr34
    You're right it's all about balance. This team has none. They rely too much on 3 pointers and Tony Parker's penetration. The need to add more variety to the offense and rely on being able to get defensive stops at the end of the game. That's the only way this team will improve. If you leave Bonner in crunch time and he hits a 3 it's still not necessarily the right play. You want to win by getting stops defensively. That's more consistent than Bonner's 3's.

  8. #58
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    The Spurs average 94.8 points per 48 minutes with Splitter on the court, while the opposition averages 95.0 points per 48 minutes ... meaning the Spurs have been outscored this year when Splitter is on the court.

    Points Allowed Per 48 Minutes on the Court
    Matt Bonner - 90.5
    Richard Jefferson - 90.7
    Tim Duncan - 91.5
    Tony Parker - 92.9
    TJ Ford - 94.7
    Tiago Splitter - 95.0
    Danny Green - 95.5
    James Anderson - 95.9
    Manu Ginobili - 96.3
    Kawhi Leonard - 97.2
    DeJuan Blair - 98.9
    Gary Neal - 99.5

    If you want to normalize the pace, as _JaG suggested, the Spurs average 105.4 points per 100 possessions when Splitter is on the court, while the opposition averages 106.7 points per 100 possessions when Splitter is off the court. When Splitter is on the bench, the Spurs average 112.2 points per 100 possessions, and the opposition averages 105.4 points per 100 possessions. So even normalizing pace, the Spurs are better on offense and defense with Splitter off the court.

    The best arguments against these numbers are: 1. small sample size (although with last year's stats showing similar findings, this may be a hard argument to sell) 2. Splitter needs more playing time to figure out how he can positively impact the game.

    Personally, even if I accept that the numbers aren't a fluke, that doesn't make me think less of Splitter. It just makes me think Splitter is even more in need of playing time so he can learn the NBA game. IMO, the worst thing Pop could do is to wait until the playoffs to throw Splitter into the fire ... like he did last year.
    I agree. Look at how far his offense has gone in a few games. He's still getting comfortable yet Pop keeps playing with his minutes. There's more wrinkles to the offense that can be added when you pair TD and Splitter like they used to have with TD and D. Rob. If teams want to play small ball the Spurs would be able to make them pay.

  9. #59
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    This should have happened opening game last season. The absolutely maddening thing is Pop seems to have no sense of urgency in bringing Splitter along, even though the big 3 are nearing the end of the line.

    And yet here is Pop acting like Morgan Freeman driving Ms Daisy, Splitter will be lucky if he's starting by the year 2015 at this pace.

  10. #60
    Veteran Sean Cagney's Avatar
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    Coaches have their growing pains as rookies, hit their peak and then eventually start to lose it, just like players do. It's really not that different. Pop lost his fastball a long time ago, and anyone who argues otherwise is not paying attention. A coach can't be in one place more than 10 years. They need to recharge their batteries, ride/trust new star players, get a change of scenery.

    The reason Phil Jackson had a longer peak than Pop is because he left the Bulls after eight years. He took a break. He changed coasts, changed stars, changed everything.

    Pop stayed and stayed and stayed. He can't accept that his veteran stars are all in decline (especially Tim). He needs to trust young big men to help Tim out, but he won't. Same , different day.

    He's got way too much power in the organization. Any competent owner/GM would've pretty much ordered him to play Tiago 35 mins a night by now. Leonard too. Not only are these guys the future, but they're two of the five most talented players on the team.

    Playing guys like Bonner and RJ minutes over them is kind of absurd. That's just paying salary over performance, which is a sign that your team has poor leadership and doesn't prioritize winning above all else.
    This post is on point like crazy!

  11. #61
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    Plus... we all know those numbers go out the window come playoff time. Bonner turns into a different basketball player.. so what he does in the regular season really doesnt matter.

  12. #62
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    He's been great IMO. He has started to use his physicality and size well lately (unlike at the start of the season when he was chucking those horrible hooks from the hip), and even if he doesn't quite finish every play, he's been drawing fouls...
    That's the benefit of starting Splitter. He puts pressure on the opposing frontcourt to play defense without fouling. Imagine all those bunnies Blair misses from Manu's passes ending up in fouls and/or won with Splitter. He's also going to have a height advantage if teams put their center on Duncan.

  13. #63
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Bonner would had +/- of -14, instead of Splitter, if that were the case. During the 12-0 run starting the third quarter, Arthur made no points. Splitter was replaced by Dice after 8 Grizzlies points + 1 ft they made too. The Grizzlies didn't make such runs again, but 10 pts in playoffs can be enough to seal a game.

    Various players didn't show-up that game, it's not only on Splitter and he was a rookie than. But as advanced stats suggest, putting Splitter in the line up will not necessarily solve all Spurs problems.

    BTW, timvp made a quality post.
    Sorry, you're right. Bonner only allowed the first four points Arthur scored. Pop went with Hill, Parker, Neal and Jefferson next to Splitter in the fourth quarter. Arthur went off on Jefferson, not Bonner. All Splitter did during that disastrous stretch was draw three fouls on Randolph. What a suck-ass.

  14. #64
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    We can all be grateful that Pop allowed Splitter to bloom as a player by watching the other guys play all last season. Genius if you try not to think about it.

  15. #65
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    Baloney. They took a gamble on a huge contract from RJ (which I don't have a problem with), but then decided to extend him after he was a failure (and continues to be). They might have saved some money short term, but it's yet to be seen if it won't be more costly long term (with quick playoff exits).
    They're in love with Matty and basically outbidded themselves to extend him.
    They had the chance to use Dice's contract and they instead stood pat and pocketed the difference.

    I thought they did address the backup PG situation in the offseason with TJ Ford. But this team is sorely lacking another relatively solid big.

    When somebody says "they're making lemonade", I take it to mean they're dealing with a situation that's outside of their control. Manu and TJ injured: they're making lemonade with Neal at the G and PG position.

    But there's nothing outside of their control as far as how this roster was put together or how Pop decides to use it.
    The big situation should have been addressed back in '07/08. The Spurs instead got worse. They got rid of Scola and Horry and Oberto started declining. Instead they traded for more offense at the SF position. If they had got a big man I am sure they could have found somebody to play small forward much easier.

  16. #66
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    The mistake was trading defense and size for offense when trying to replace Bowen. The sin was signing the mistake to a long term contract after it was clear he didn't fit in.

  17. #67
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    Coaches have their growing pains as rookies, hit their peak and then eventually start to lose it, just like players do. It's really not that different. Pop lost his fastball a long time ago, and anyone who argues otherwise is not paying attention. A coach can't be in one place more than 10 years. They need to recharge their batteries, ride/trust new star players, get a change of scenery.

    The reason Phil Jackson had a longer peak than Pop is because he left the Bulls after eight years. He took a break. He changed coasts, changed stars, changed everything.

    Pop stayed and stayed and stayed. He can't accept that his veteran stars are all in decline (especially Tim). He needs to trust young big men to help Tim out, but he won't. Same , different day.

    He's got way too much power in the organization. Any competent owner/GM would've pretty much ordered him to play Tiago 35 mins a night by now. Leonard too. Not only are these guys the future, but they're two of the five most talented players on the team.

    Playing guys like Bonner and RJ minutes over them is kind of absurd. That's just paying salary over performance, which is a sign that your team has poor leadership and doesn't prioritize winning above all else.
    Pop's been drinking his own kool aid for too long. That's what happens when you have too much power and little accountability. The Nellie ball stuff he's been trying hasn't worked the past few years but he refuses to budge.

  18. #68
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The big situation should have been addressed back in '07/08. The Spurs instead got worse. They got rid of Scola and Horry and Oberto started declining. Instead they traded for more offense at the SF position. If they had got a big man I am sure they could have found somebody to play small forward much easier.
    I understand the reasoning back then. They were just coming out from winning a championship. Made the WCF the next season. In hindsight, I think Bowen's decline/losing him was a much bigger blow than many suspected. But I also think trading for RJ was a genuine attempt at breeding some life for one more run. I can't fault them for that. I disagree with some of the decisions made afterwards though, as I pointed out in my previous post.

  19. #69
    Veteran Fabbs's Avatar
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    He's got way too much power in the organization. Any competent owner/GM would've pretty much ordered him to play Tiago 35 mins a night by now. Leonard too. Not only are these guys the future, but they're two of the five most talented players on the team.

    Playing guys like Bonner and RJ minutes over them is kind of absurd. That's just paying salary over performance, which is a sign that your team has poor leadership and doesn't prioritize winning above all else.
    You are invited to the next Spurs Realist meeting.

  20. #70
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    The big situation should have been addressed back in '07/08. The Spurs instead got worse. They got rid of Scola and Horry and Oberto started declining. Instead they traded for more offense at the SF position. If they had got a big man I am sure they could have found somebody to play small forward much easier.
    They took a gamble on Jefferson, it didn't really pay off as expected. Should have just bit the bullet and paid some luxury tax and been done with the situation. Heck, they might have even gotten a nice trade out of RJ's expiring contract with just a little patience. Certainly, re-signing Bonner to that stupid contract didn't help either. By not resigning either, Holt would have been on the hook for some pocket change (for millionaries at least) but not completely sunk. They could have even probably paid nothing by not signing Tiago till this season. Considering how little Pop played him last year, he would have been better off developing his skills furthur in Europe tbh.

    Funny how teams that don't make stupid financial / personnel decisions usually end up in a better position. Take the rockets this year. Even after all the unfortunate business with Yao, they have used good sound logic and haven't shot themselves in the foot. Thus they were able to grab Dalambert from FA this past off season who has been a great addition. Sure would have been nice if the spurs had been in a position to do the same.

  21. #71
    Veteran Fabbs's Avatar
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    Points Allowed Per 48 Minutes on the Court
    Matt Bonner - 90.5
    Richard Jefferson - 90.7
    Tim Duncan - 91.5
    Tony Parker - 92.9
    TJ Ford - 94.7
    Tiago Splitter - 95.0
    Danny Green - 95.5
    James Anderson - 95.9
    Manu Ginobili - 96.3
    Kawhi Leonard - 97.2
    DeJuan Blair - 98.9
    Gary Neal - 99.5
    timvp, don't you think this is the absolute poster child as to why sometimes statistics do not tell the true story at all? I mean do we not all agree Bonner is one of, if not the most sucky defensive players in the NBA? Since his entering until now.
    Soft coming in at #2 on this list.

    Not trying to sidetrack all the other stats you posted.
    Superb writeup.

  22. #72
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    How can Pop expect the defense to get better if he's not playing the best defenders the most minutes? Or did he abandon that idea. It's hard to know what he believes.

  23. #73
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    splitter is really good when his shots are falling, we should continue to dump the ball into him and milk his hot hand, but no instead we go away from him either benchin his ass or some scrubs are chuckin up shots....

  24. #74
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    They took a gamble on Jefferson, it didn't really pay off as expected. Should have just bit the bullet and paid some luxury tax and been done with the situation. Heck, they might have even gotten a nice trade out of RJ's expiring contract with just a little patience. Certainly, re-signing Bonner to that stupid contract didn't help either. By not resigning either, Holt would have been on the hook for some pocket change (for millionaries at least) but not completely sunk. They could have even probably paid nothing by not signing Tiago till this season. Considering how little Pop played him last year, he would have been better off developing his skills furthur in Europe tbh.

    Funny how teams that don't make stupid financial / personnel decisions usually end up in a better position. Take the rockets this year. Even after all the unfortunate business with Yao, they have used good sound logic and haven't shot themselves in the foot. Thus they were able to grab Dalambert from FA this past off season who has been a great addition. Sure would have been nice if the spurs had been in a position to do the same.
    I'm not even sure if getting a big makes sense with Pop as the coach. He's still going to play Bonner his 20+ minutes.

  25. #75
    Veteran Fabbs's Avatar
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    Funny how teams that don't make stupid financial / personnel decisions usually end up in a better position. Take the rockets this year. Even after all the unfortunate business with Yao, they have used good sound logic and haven't shot themselves in the foot. Thus they were able to grab Dalambert from FA this past off season who has been a great addition. Sure would have been nice if the spurs had been in a position to do the same.
    Shane Battier a 14Xs better choice as a replacement for Bowen compared to the 3? (Finley Bonner Jeff)

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