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  1. #1
    One More timvp's Avatar
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    With Manu Ginobili set to the return the lineup on Saturday against the Nets, it will be interesting to see how Pop decides to integrate him back into the rotation. Thankfully with Ginobili, he has proven he can thrive in just about any role imaginable. When he's on the court, no matter the 'how', 'when' or 'why', the Argentine produces.

    While there are a number of rotations that make some sense, including Ginobili coming off the bench, what I think is best is to start Ginobili at shooting guard and Kawhi Leonard at small forward. In this scenario, Richard Jefferson would be sent to the bench.

    (Note: Though I think Tiago Splitter should also start, this scenario will keep DeJuan Blair in the starting lineup since Pop has shown no indication that he's even considering that switch.)

    Here are ten reasons I think the starting lineup should include Ginobili and Leonard at the wing positions:

    1. The Current Starting Lineup is Broken
    In practically every game as of late, there's been a similar pattern: the offense stalls with the starting lineup on the court, the Spurs fall behind, the bench comes into the game, the Spurs make a run. It's been like clockwork.

    On the season, the lineup that started most of the games with Ginobili out (Parker, Leonard, Jefferson, Blair, Duncan) has played 184 minutes but has only outscored the opponents by a grand total of five points. While that lineup is good defensively, it's really weak offensively. On the season, the Spurs are averaging 106.02 points per 100 possessions. That lineup averages 97.73 points per 100 possessions.

    Inserting Ginobili into the starting lineup will solve any offensive issues. This season, the Spurs are averaging 115.25 points per 100 possessions that Ginobili plays. Even if you want to discount his stats from this year due to the small sample size, Ginobili has a long history of putting up similar numbers (112.09 in 2009, 113.53 in 2010 and 114.37 last season).

    2. The Bench is Rolling
    While the starting lineup is dysfunctional right now, the bench has been on fire. With Tiago Splitter dominating the paint and a gaggle of outside shooters surrounding him, it's not uncommon for the Spurs to blitz their opponents with lineups mostly comprised of reserves.

    On the season, the bench is averaging 36.5 points per game, which is the fifth highest mark in the NBA. The bench is also fourth in assists per game (7.9), sixth in field goal percentage (45.3%) and first in three-pointers made (108). The five-man unit with the highest plus/minus on the season features five bench players: Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green, Matt Bonner and Splitter.

    Jefferson's skillset will mesh perfectly with the reserves. His shooting can spread the floor for Splitter. And since the bench plays the game at a faster pace, Jefferson will get more chances to get out and run.

    3. Leonard's Defense is Most Useful at the Beginning of Games
    Leonard is already the team's best one-on-one perimeter defender. To set the tone defensively, he needs to start so he can keep the other team's top perimeter player from catching fire. We saw an example of this in the most recent game against the Grizzlies. Leonard began the game harassing Rudy Gay and Gay was never able to find his rhythm, which allowed the Spurs to later use lesser defenders against him when they needed an offensive punch.

    If brought off the bench, Leonard's defense will be much less valuable. Most reserves in the league don't require a defender of Leonard's caliber. And even if he's used as a specialist to cool off hot perimeter scorers, that'd be asking a whole lot of Leonard; once stars are on fire, it's usually too late.

    4. Jefferson is no Longer a Capable Defender
    It's no secret that Jefferson has lost a step this season. On offense, it's evident by how he never drives to the rim any longer. Those dunks of yesteryear? All but extinct.

    While it's more difficult to see his defensive decline, that too is undeniable. Since Leonard was moved into the starting lineup, Jefferson has mostly been asked to guard the other team's weakest perimeter player. But even though little is being asked of him, players are still blowing by RJ at an alarming rate.

    If Pop starts Ginobili and Jefferson, that alignment would require Jefferson to attempt to defend opposing small forwards -- even if that player is a superstar. If that happens, there is absolutely no way this team will be elite on the defensive end.

    5. Allowing Ginobili to Roam
    While Ginobili isn't a very good one-on-one defender, he's fantastic when he's allowed to roam. But for him to be able to roam without hurting the team's defense, Ginobili has to be matched up against the opponent's worst perimeter scorer. If Leonard starts, that would be the case; it'd be a return of the Bruce Bowen days in that regard.

    If Jefferson starts, Ginobili would face much more difficult matchups and his ability to roam will be limited. Additionally, Ginobili would be forced to spend a lot more energy on the defensive end, which would either limit how hard he can go on the offensive end or limit the maximum amount of minutes he can play at a high level.

    6. Hiding Leonard's Offensive Shortcomings
    For as well as Leonard plays on the defensive end, he's unquestionably the team's biggest offensive liability. Since his outside shot is iffy, he doesn't spread the floor much. And Leonard thus far hasn't developed the ability to create for himself going to the rim in halfcourt sets, which forces him to basically live off of backdoor cuts and offensive rebounds.

    Those limitations obviously don't make Leonard the optimal player to start next to the Big 3, but the starting lineup would have the offensive talent to offset his weaknesses. Even with Leonard, I expect the starting lineup to be an elite scoring unit. And who knows, playing next to Ginobili could greatly improve Leonard's ability to score. We've seen that happen countless times in the past.

    7. Increase Role Player Competition
    Jefferson, at this point in his career, is a declining role player. Even if you still think he's playing at an acceptable level today, that may change next week or next month. By putting him on the bench, Pop will avoid giving him charity minutes each game that he may no longer warrant.

    However, by bringing Jefferson off the bench, you make him compete for his spot in the rotation. It also gives other players, namely Green, Neal and Anderson, room to carve out consistent playing time. For example, if Ginobili and Leonard are starting and averaging 56 minutes combined, that still leaves 40 minutes on the table for others to fight over.

    8. Rebounding Needed in the Starting Lineup
    One reason why the starting lineup has struggled is an inability to control the defensive glass. Replacing Leonard in the starting lineup would be a step in the wrong direction and would force Duncan to shoulder even more of the rebounding load.

    But by replacing Jefferson with Ginobili, defensive rebounding should no longer be an issue for the starting five. Ginobili is much better than Jefferson at grabbing long, contested boards.

    9. Speeding Up Leonard's Growth
    If the Spurs are going to be a championship contender this season, they need Leonard to be ready to defend the best of the best come the postseason. While the rookie might not be a vital cog when it comes to racking up regular season wins, he'll play a very important role in the playoffs.

    It's asking a lot for a 20-year-old rookie to produce in the playoffs. That said, throwing Leonard into the fire and giving him consistent minutes and a consistent role each night will maximize the chances of it happening.

    If Leonard becomes a bench player, it will be all but assured that he'll be a spectator in May.

    10. Adjustable When Needed
    Recently, Pop has taken Leonard out of the starting lineup against teams that don't feature a star perimeter scorer. While more than 80% of NBA teams feature such a player, starting Leonard gives Pop flexibility to adjust to certain teams.

    Trying to do the other way wouldn't really work. If Pop starts Ginobili and Jefferson, he'd be committed to that lineup night in and night out.

  2. #2
    King of the Dorks Dex's Avatar
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    Nice write-up. All very good reasons. Now the real question is....what do you think are the odds that Pop actually follows suit and sends RJ to the bench?

    It seems like the sensible thing to do, but then again, so does giving Splitter more minutes.
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  3. #3
    Believe. SpursRock20's Avatar
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    Print this out. Fold it up. Put it in a envelope. Send it to Pop.

  4. #4
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    3. Leonard's Defense is Most Useful at the Beginning of Games
    Leonard is already the team's best one-on-one perimeter defender. To set the tone defensively, he needs to start so he can keep the other team's top perimeter player from catching fire. We saw an example of this in the most recent game against the Grizzlies. Leonard began the game harassing Rudy Gay and Gay was never able to find his rhythm, which allowed the Spurs to later use lesser defenders against him when they needed an offensive punch.

    If brought off the bench, Leonard's defense will be much less valuable. Most reserves in the league don't require a defender of Leonard's caliber. And even if he's used as a specialist to cool off hot perimeter scorers, that'd be asking a whole lot of Leonard; once stars are on fire, it's usually too late.
    Great write up. This is an under rated point imo.. bringing Leonard off the bench is wasting the talents he brings.. since he's the only guy on the roster with that particular skill set.. its needs to be optimised by starting him against the best perimeter players in the league.

    And as you mentioned, most 'scorers' that come off the bench are under sized chuckers. Guys that wont hurt you anywhere near as much as the team's best perimeter scorer.
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  5. #5
    FTL ElNono's Avatar
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    Wishful thinking, LJ
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  6. #6
    One More timvp's Avatar
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    Now the real question is....what do you think are the odds that Pop actually follows suit and sends RJ to the bench?

    It seems like the sensible thing to do, but then again, so does giving Splitter more minutes.
    I have no idea what Pop is going to do. He's probably the only coach in the league who wouldn't be starting Splitter right now so there's no telling how he'll handle this situation.

    Tbh, I'll be more upset if Pop doesn't start Ginobili and Leonard together than I am about the Splitter fiasco. With Splitter, at least there are some halfway valid concerns regarding why he comes off the bench. But starting Ginobili/Jefferson or Leonard /Jefferson or Green/Jefferson or even Ginobili/Green doesn't make nearly as much sense as starting Ginobili/Leonard.

  7. #7
    Danger Will Robinson! GSH's Avatar
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    I'm a huge believer in being able to change the pace of a game, which is why Manu was always so valuable off the bench. But I think this second unit can offer that on their own. I would love to see Pop put both Manu and Kawhi in to start the game. That leaves RJ to play against the opponents' subs, where he would be fine - he might even get a chance to play more of his old style game. The only problem I see is that Manu is by far our best backup PG right now. There's something to be said to having either him or Tony on the floor at all times, at least until Ford comes back.

    What I'd really love to see is a starting five of Tim, Tiago, Leonard, Manu, and Tony. Even if the Tim/Tiago combo ended after 6-7 minutes, to be able to open the game with a dominating lineup, and setting the tone for the game... that could save a lot of grief in the latter stages. I really think that starting five could make things tough on just about any other team in the league.

  8. #8
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    9. Speeding Up Leonard's Growth
    If the Spurs are going to be a championship contender this season, they need Leonard to be ready to defend the best of the best come the postseason. While the rookie might not be a vital cog when it comes to racking up regular season wins, he'll play a very important role in the playoffs.

    It's asking a lot for a 20-year-old rookie to produce in the playoffs. That said, throwing Leonard into the fire and giving him consistent minutes and a consistent role each night will maximize the chances of it happening.

    If Leonard becomes a bench player, it will be all but assured that he'll be a spectator in May.
    If Pop actually gave a crap about something like this, wouldn't he have played Splitter more last season and this one?

  9. #9
    h Robz4000's Avatar
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    Agree 100%. Bringing Jefferson off the bench may very well resurrect his game. Also would make the starting lineup fairly elite while taking nothing away from the bench we've come to love.
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  10. #10
    Lol Crews jjktkk's Avatar
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    Sadly, RJ and Blair probably wouldn't produce coming off the bench.

  11. #11
    one for the thumb phxspurfan's Avatar
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    I like the arguments but there's no way Pop is going to bench RJ. Holt would have a fit with Pop benching a $9,300,000.00 player.
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  12. #12
    FTL ElNono's Avatar
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    One Reason Why Ginobili and Jefferson Will Start


  13. #13
    Believe.
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    very good points but you will have to nail this to pop's front door.

  14. #14
    Believe. maverick1948's Avatar
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    About part 6, Hiding Leonards offensive shortcomings. You do realize even with RJ in the lineup, Kawhi is the 5 option. That means he gets very few plays called for him. As a result he has fewer attempts from the floor than anyother starter. Bringing in Ginobili will only make it harder for him to get shots during the game.

    I think we should continue rotating the team as Pop is doing. We have a constant run of fresh players all playing at a higher level than the opponents can play. I think Blair, Duncan, Leonard, Green and Parker makes a good starting lineup. With Splitter, Bonner, Jefferson, Ginobili and Neal as the second unit. Our biggest problem is finding how to keep Blair motivated. By moving Green into the starting lineup, he will help TP handle the ball and has a great passing ability. Manu can handle the 2nd unit and if you look it makes Splitter the ONLY post player on the court. Running PnR with Manu will inflate his stats big time. If RJ Bonner and Neal knock down a couple of quick 3's this unit could compete with a lot of starting lineups on bad team.

  15. #15
    The Didact Leetonidas's Avatar
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    I think this is a great idea, the only problem is who do we pair with Duncan? Splitter is our main weapon off the bench, and Blair/Bonner both suck ass but Bonner as of late has been playing much better and is hitting his threes while Blair does, well, nothing. I suppose Manu being in the starting lineup may make him more useful out there and the Splitter/Bonner combo seems surprisingly effective. Damn I wish McDyess hadn't retired, he would still be better next to Timmy than Blair.
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    nice

  16. #16
    Believe.
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    If Leonard's shot was consistent I would say there's no doubt he starts. I like what Pop was doing before and subbing Jefferson out early and bringing KL in. That allowed Jefferson to come back in and play with the second unit. I remember him playing pretty well in that role with the second unit.

    Right now I say Pop should at least start Splitter. Adding a defensive presence in the paint can somewhat help to make up for lack of perimeter defense. The perimeter defenders can dig in and force the offense towards TD and TS. Also the starters gain chemistry playing with each other and the bench can learn to try and maintain leads. Relying on being able to fight back into a game isn't a great strategy. People forget the reason Ginobili came of the bench in the past wasn't for a change of pace. It was because Finley was useless of the bench.

  17. #17
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Benching RJ...that makes too much sense.
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  18. #18
    Believe. timtonymanu's Avatar
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    Great thread, timvp.

    I am hoping for this too. Jefferson is no longer a serviceable starter, at least for this team. He brings nothing other than 3 point shooting at this point of his career. Put RJ with Neal, Green, and Splitter and it makes our bench much more of a threat than it already is.

    Putting Leonard into the Bowen role puts our team closer to a championship team. Enough with starting the dead-weights, Blair and RJ at the same time. Send one of them to the bench, which makes more sense with RJ.

  19. #19
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    Print this out. Fold it up. Put it in a envelope. Send it to Pop.
    And to all media outlets, everyday
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  20. #20
    Drive for Five Fireball's Avatar
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    TIMVP ... best reason to come to Spurstalk!
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  21. #21
    Veteran roycrikside's Avatar
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    If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Pop will have Manu come off the bench at the beginning, until he gets his conditioning up and can play more than 20 mins a game.

    The exciting thing about Ginobili coming back is that we won't have to worry about Neal or Joseph holding the fort when Tony's on the bench (and hopefully he can rest more now, we've been riding him hard) and also we'll have at least one wing we can rely on for points inside and outside, when Green and Leonard have both been ice cold of late and Jefferson continues to be strictly an outside shooter.

    The part that really has me drooling though is the Ginobili-Splitter pick-and-roll connection. Obviously Splitter has really developed that part of his game and the guards on the team have gotten very comfortable passing it to him. If Tony can get Splitter two or three easy buckets a game, imagine what Manu and Tiago can do together.

  22. #22
    Believe Darkwaters's Avatar
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    Tbh, I'll be more upset if Pop doesn't start Ginobili and Leonard together than I am about the Splitter fiasco. With Splitter, at least there are some halfway valid concerns regarding why he comes off the bench. But starting Ginobili/Jefferson or Leonard /Jefferson or Green/Jefferson or even Ginobili/Green doesn't make nearly as much sense as starting Ginobili/Leonard.
    Darkhorse move: Spurs resign Michael Finley and start Finley/Jefferson

  23. #23
    Veteran
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    Great write up as usual timvp

    If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Pop will have Manu come off the bench at the beginning, until he gets his conditioning up and can play more than 20 mins a game.

    The exciting thing about Ginobili coming back is that we won't have to worry about Neal or Joseph holding the fort when Tony's on the bench (and hopefully he can rest more now, we've been riding him hard) and also we'll have at least one wing we can rely on for points inside and outside, when Green and Leonard have both been ice cold of late and Jefferson continues to be strictly an outside shooter.

    The part that really has me drooling though is the Ginobili-Splitter pick-and-roll connection. Obviously Splitter has really developed that part of his game and the guards on the team have gotten very comfortable passing it to him. If Tony can get Splitter two or three easy buckets a game, imagine what Manu and Tiago can do together.
    No guesswork is required. Pop has already explicitly stated that he's going to ease Ginobili off the bench initially.

  24. #24
    Kiwi, Advanced Stat Fan
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    I think that's the best 5 to start with. Kawhi is our weakest offensive player, but rebounding is a big thing, and he's phenomenal at it. With Manu coming back, you probably want to ease him into it a bit, so probably 5 minutes at the start of the half, 4 minutes and the end of 1st/start of second(acts as de facto PG) and 5 minutes near the end of the half. have him in during TP's rest when TJ is out so you have another creator on the floor, then when TJ is back there's less pressure on playing Manu with that Unit, and he can play with the starters more.

    I would guess we'll see Manu/RJ though

  25. #25
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    There is one big factor that is missing in the OP: TJ Ford's injury.

    For the moment, Spurs biggest issue is that Parker is playing too much minutes. Since TJ's injury, Parker is playing over 36mpg. That's way too much with this compressed schedule. Parker will end up injured or dead tired if he continues to play as much. Manu's return should first be used to limit Parker's minutes and the best way to do it is to have Manu coming from the bench helping the second unit.

    Once Ford is back, the situation will be a lot different and I fully wholly agree with the idea of starting Ginobili with Leonard.

  26. #26
    Still Learning Me benefactor's Avatar
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    Agreed on all points......























































































































    Wishful thinking, LJ
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  27. #27
    French are soft Brazil's Avatar
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    There is one big factor that is missing in the OP: TJ Ford's injury.

    For the moment, Spurs biggest issue is that Parker is playing too much minutes. Since TJ's injury, Parker is playing over 36mpg. That's way too much with this compressed schedule. Parker will end up injured or dead tired if he continues to play as much. Manu's return should first be used to limit Parker's minutes and the best way to do it is to have Manu coming from the bench helping the second unit.

    Once Ford is back, the situation will be a lot different and I fully wholly agree with the idea of starting Ginobili with Leonard.
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  28. #28
    NBAChamp..to be Continued SpurNation's Avatar
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    Great write up. Can't argue with stats or facts.

    That said...I'd like to see them try a starting unit of Parker, Duncan, Blair, Neal and Leonard. Primary second tier of Ginobili, Jefferson, Splitter, Bonner and Green. When TJ returns...reduce Green's minutes and/or adjust Green and Jefferson depending on matchups.

    And I'm not saying this to be a permanent rotation or in disagreement with Timvp but using the same reasons in the op with different players.

    With regards to (1), Neal starting elevates the teams' lack of scoring punch and, as pointed out in (5), Neal is a better defender when allowed to roam more so than one on one. Case regarding number (8) is also addressed since Neal is a better than average rebounder in the guard position. Plus...Neal is becoming better as a facilitator and gives the Spurs an added attack the basket element. Paired with Parker and Kawhi on the perimeter might not be AS potent as Ginobili but would still be better than being presented at the time.

    Common factor I believe is Jefferson more so than anybody else in this. Jefferson has always performed better being paired with Ginobili. Jefferson off the bench with Ginobili allows Spurs second unit to have (for what it's worth) two starters in that unit. Ginobili, Green, Jefferson, Splitter and Bonner present a formidable rotation that should hold true with the comment... "Jefferson's skillset will mesh perfectly with the reserves. His shooting can spread the floor for Splitter. And since the bench plays the game at a faster pace, Jefferson will get more chances to get out and run." Again...R.J. paired with Ginobili has always produced an effective combination. With Parker and Duncan (for a lack of a better phrase) out of the way...Manu and Jefferson may produce optimum results.

    Anyway...not meant to be argumentative...just a different perspective.
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  29. #29
    Believe. silverblackfan's Avatar
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    It is a dream lineup for a Spurs fan, but unlikely at this point. Due to Tony's need for rest, Manu's need for conditioning, I can see Manu coming off the bench for a bit. As others have noted, until TJ is back or Neal/Green become reliable ball distributers, the second unit needs Manu.
    As for benching RJ for KL, that would be awesome to see. I don't think Pop wants to put that much pressure on KL or defend the $9Million bench guy.
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  30. #30
    Spurs Fanatic
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    I'm not comfortable with Manu coming back and having to fill in as backup pg. I know we're excited about Manu coming back but I still wonder how effective he's going to be coming back from surgery on his dominate hand so he's still a big question to me. Until TJ comes back Tony's just going to have to hang in there.

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