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  1. #251
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Understood, and I feel like the 20x's increase in efficiency would be up north, which doesn't mean that we won't receive some increase in efficiency (say 5x??) either way improving the efficacy of solar in the north will bring down the costs for us in the south due to higher adoption rates, economies of scale, etc.

    (and imagine what it will do for a country like Germany who is actually being responsible and showing a great commitment to it)
    FYI, Germany is ending solar subsidies...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ower-subsidies

    You can have too much of a good thing, it turns out. The German government has said it has been forced to cut subsidies for solar panels, because demand was so high it could no longer afford to support the green technology.

    Friday's announcement has left Germans rushing to install solar panels on buildings ahead of the planned cut in subsidies of up to 30%.

    The government has explained its decision as a way of slowing the rapid growth in the sector, saying it was one of Germany's success stories, but had been allowed to grow too fast and had been too heavily subsidised.

    "We've already seen a huge reduction in the incentives in the past few years but the incentives were still too high," the environment minister, Norbert Röttgen, said. "Solar is a success story made in Germany. We want it to be an acceptable technology not only in the future but right now but the cost factor has to be at acceptable levels."

    Environmentalists, renewable energy experts and industry representatives have expressed incredulity at the 30% cut from 9 March, following earlier cuts of up to 50% over the past three years. They said it was a huge blow for the fledgling industry and a contradiction in terms for a country planning to phase out nuclear power.

    "This plan amounts to nothing less than a solar phase-out law," said David Wedepohl, spokesman for the German Solar Industry Association, which represents 800 solar companies. "Under these cir stances there's no way that the transition of the energy industry can be successful. It's also putting tens of thousands of jobs at risk, and it's tough both on investors and on citizens who want to be part of the energy transformation."

    Germany is the world's top installer of photovoltaic power, with a capacity of around 25,000 megawatts, almost as much as the rest of the world put together. It added a record 7,500 megawatts in 2011.

    The sun provides from 3.2% to – on sunny days at midday– up to 25% of Germany's energy.

    Wedepohl admitted: "You could say we are the victims of our own success. The costs of solar energy have come down immensely due to technological development and scaleability so we're scratching our heads and wondering: why stop supporting this now?"

    Germany has seen a huge increase in use of solar panels over the last two years, thanks to a subsidy system that utility companies are obliged to pay to people who generate their own solar power, which is then pumped into the grid. Power companies pass on the costs to their customers in their electricity bill. At a time of rising prices the government argues that it has to lessen the financial impact on consumers by decreasing the subsidies.

    The solar sector boom has seen everyone from farms to kindergartens making the most of the opportunities to erect solar panels on their roofs. There has even been a trend to form co-operatives and rent space on the roof of public buildings that have installed panels, such as swimming pools or schools. There are now 1.1m such systems in Germany.

    The proposed cuts would see the feed in tariff subsidy falling to 19.5 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) for small plants, and to 13.5 cents for plants of up to 10 megawatts. German retail electricity prices are between 21 and 24 cents per kWh.

    The decision must still pass through the cabinet and parliament but political observers believe it is likely to be approved.

    On Monday thousands of demonstrators are planning to gather at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate to protest under the banner "Stop the Solar Phase Out".

    At a time when solar power is on the verge of costing the same as conventional power, due in large part to the fall in the costs of solar panels and their installation, renewable energy sector representatives have expressed their su ions that the cuts are an attempt to appease the major energy companies who are losing out greatly to renewables, particularly since the decision last year to phase out nuclear power following the Fukishima disaster in Japan.

    "We're taking a part of the market away for large electricity suppliers," said Wedepohl. "But as a country we made a decision after Fukishima to phase out nuclear energy, so we need a lot of power."

  2. #252
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    CC, I have seen this before and it seems that their justification is that it is becoming counterproductive as demand is so high that it is causing prices (holistically) to creep back up (and therefore is costing all stakeholders more than it would without the subsidy). They are doing this to deflate this bubble a little. Oh those crazy responsible germans.

    3-25%!

  3. #253
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So solar in Germany is a success.
    Last edited by ChumpDumper; 03-28-2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason: reading

  4. #254
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    FYI, Germany is ending solar subsidies...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ower-subsidies

    You can have too much of a good thing, it turns out. The German government has said it has been forced to cut subsidies for solar panels, because demand was so high it could no longer afford to support the green technology.

    Friday's announcement has left Germans rushing to install solar panels on buildings ahead of the planned cut in subsidies of up to 30%.
    Indeed. The subsidies are no longer really all that necessary, AND appear to have lowered electricity rates.

    Funny thing is that the solar has made coal plants MUCH less profitable, through the method by which companies are forced to buy electricity. Have to find that article. Basically solar costs nothing to run, so they can sell "peak power" very very cheaply, directly undercutting other forms of power that require fuels to operate.

  5. #255
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The exact same argument can be made against solar, wind, and biofuels.

    At least be intellectually consistent.
    Germany is the fly in the ointment. Restate?

  6. #256
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Germany is the fly in the ointment. Restate?
    No need. Solar is still only economically feasible with government subsidies.

    Remember, I'm the one looking at installing a system on my home.

  7. #257
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    API LYING:

    Debunking American Petroleum Ins ute Claims About Oil Issues



    Associated Press Investigation: There is “no statistical correlation between how much oil comes out of U.S. wells and the price at the pump.”

    by Daniel J. Weiss, Rebecca Leber, and Jackie Weidman

    CLAIM: “More domestic production is critical to putting downward pressure on gasoline prices — supply matters.” – Jack Gerard, American Petroleum Ins ute President and CEO, March 26, 2012

    TRUTH: To test whether more U.S. domestic production would lower gasoline prices, the Associated Press just completed an exhaustive analysis of 36 years of monthly U.S. oil production and gasoline price data. AP found that there is:

    “No statistical correlation between how much oil comes out of U.S. wells and the price at the pump. If more domestic oil drilling worked as politicians say, you’d now be paying about $2 a gallon for gasoline. Instead, you’re paying the highest prices ever for March.”

    http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/0...ut-oil-issues/

  8. #258
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    No need. Solar is still only economically feasible with government subsidies.

    Remember, I'm the one looking at installing a system on my home.
    Lets see how the German market does without them. People buying them like mad causing the government to back off is not indicative of a market without demand.

  9. #259
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    Some refiners say gas prices not high enough

    Posted: 03/31/2012 2:04 AM

    Rising gasoline prices have become a source of finger-pointing and political rhetoric — yet the economic reality for some refiners is that the price isn't high enough.

    They say that gasoline prices, particularly on the East Coast, have been too low for them to operate successfully. Already, two refineries there have shut down completely as prices for fuel haven't kept up with the surging cost of the raw material, crude oil.

    “In an environment like this, where the price of crude oil is rising faster than the price of the product that the refineries make, the profits get squeezed and in some cases they're not profits at all,” said Bill Day, a spokesman for San Antonio-based Valero, the nation's largest refiner.

    High world oil prices and declining U.S. demand for gasoline have been a major part of the problem, said Charles Drevna, president of American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers.

    The result has been lower domestic gasoline production in regions where refineries rely on imported crude. Oil sold globally is more expensive than crude that is produced and refined in parts of the country with limited access to the world market.

    Brent crude, used as a benchmark for world oil, closed Wednesday at $124.16 per barrel, down $1.38. West Texas Intermediate, the U.S. benchmark, closed at $105.41, down $1.92.

    On the East Coast, where refiners rely on foreign crude, production dropped from 93 percent of capacity in 2005 to 63 percent in 2011 because of high world oil prices, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

    Nationwide, refineries are running at an average of about 82 percent of their fuel-production capacity, according to the agency.

    “The reason they are operating that high is because the U.S. is able to export right now,” said Roger Ihne, principal energy portfolio leader for Deloitte. “Without that export, they would be operating at a lower rate and we would be having a significant shakeout of U.S. refiners.”

    Much of the refining industry had a rough 2011 as crude prices rose.

    Houston's ConocoPhillips closed down its Pennsylvania refinery and put it up for sale. Philadelphia-based Sunoco announced that it was getting out of the refining business altogether.

    “They are shutting down because there is too much capacity. They are shutting down because they are not compe ive,” Brady said.

    Not all refiners are hurting. Midwestern refineries that use lower-priced North American crude can refine it and sell their fuel onto the world market based on the Brent price.

    But a limited pipeline network locks much of the cheaper domestic oil in the country's midsection.

    “The refiners in the Midwest, they have access to these stranded pockets of crude, so their costs are lower,” Brady said. “On the East Coast, they are not getting that advantage.”

    West Coast refineries have similar difficulties getting domestic crude.

    Gulf Coast refineries have better access to domestic oil, and ran at 89 percent capacity in 2011, up one percentage point from 2005.

    http://mobile.mysa.com/mysa/db_41323...l=true#display

    ========

    Drill here drill now is a lie

    Too much regulation is a lie

    Repugs and oilcos are nothing but lies

  10. #260
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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  11. #261
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    $4.119 today at one of my regular purchase points, for regular...

  12. #262
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    $4.119 today at one of my regular purchase points, for regular...
    pretty cheap.....if your into regular.

  13. #263
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    Old, but still interesting I think:

    .....Here's why small independent filling stations like Miller's are hurting. He buys his gasoline for $4.04 a gallon from a local distributor and charges $4.09 a gallon. Since credit-card companies charge fees that are a percentage of the dollar transaction value, higher prices at the pump just mean Miller pays more for the service but without anything padding his margins. Miller says the credit-card fees now add up to an average of about 5¢ a gallon at his store. That means, including shipping costs and overhead, he loses money selling gasoline. If not for his three-bay repair garage, he'd be out of business. Stations Run Low on Cash Other service stations with a higher volume of credit-card sales say their fees add up to an average of 10¢ or 12¢ a gallon.

    What's worse, says Mike Convey, a gasoline salesman for Tampa-based J.H. Williams Oil, is that most consumers are now paying with credit cards because the price to fill the tank has gotten so high. About four years ago, approximately 25% of the business at his company's 20 or so filling stations was done with credit cards. Now about 75% of their gasoline is sold on credit, pushing up his firm's credit-card costs......

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_105256.html

  14. #264
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    yep, gasoline is commodity with tiny profit at retail, if any. That's why for a couple decades, gas stations have been forced into selling junk food, souvenir crap, coffee, booze, etc.

  15. #265
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Looks like the OP didn't want to have a serious discussion on the issue.

  16. #266
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    Abundant crude supply doesn't push gas prices down

    a startling reality: Crude oil supplies in the United States have been at historic highs for two years, while Americans are using less of its most important product - gasoline. The Gulf Coast is particularly glutted with crude, due in part to a pipeline bottleneck. But federal statistics show another recent development: West Coast refineries are decreasing their production as the domestic demand for gasoline shrinks.

    So why aren't gasoline prices pushed down by the forces of supply and demand?

    The answer, said Newell, is the power of the world market.

    "We are tied to the global market, the global price for oil," said Rayola Dougher, senior economic adviser at the American Petroleum Ins ute. "We cannot secede."

    The profitable oil-production industry benefits financially from the fact that it operates within that global market. Fuel conservation in the United States - however laudable - cannot overcome the rising hydrocarbon demand in emerging markets like China and India, explained Newell. The price stays up even where more local market pressures might force it down.

    But as commodity speculators and Asian buyers make their daily trades, the prices these days are relentlessly high.

    Refineries exporting gas

    People are driving less because of the recession and the aging of Baby Boomers, said James Beck, a lead petroleum supply analyst for the Energy Information Administration. Newer cars get better mileage and are replacing gas-guzzlers, and people are using other means of transportation; Amtrak ridership rose 4.5 percent in 2011 to a new high, said Molchanov.

    Gulf Coast and West Coast refineries are consequently making more gasoline than they can sell locally. They are exporting it to other countries, notably in Central and South America, in volumes not seen in a half a century

    http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_...l=true#display

    I repeat: XL pipeline goes to Beaumont/Port Arthur enterprise zone for tax-free export to central/south America.

    "Drill Here, Drill Now" to get cheap gas/energy FOR THE USA is just another Repug/UCA LIE
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 04-23-2012 at 03:45 PM.

  17. #267
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Old, but still interesting I think:
    I never pay credit. And if I 'have' to I will go to the cash machine.

    banks and charging vendors 3% and the like. Leeches.

  18. #268
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I never pay credit. And if I 'have' to I will go to the cash machine.

    banks and charging vendors 3% and the like. Leeches.
    If you have good credit and pay your card off every month credit cards are freaking awesome. I get at least $1000 cash back every year from my Chase Freedom Visa.

  19. #269
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    If you have good credit and pay your card off every month credit cards are freaking awesome. I get at least $1000 cash back every year from my Chase Freedom Visa.
    I have good credit but thats not the point I am trying to make. While they give you 1%, they charge vendors upwards of 3% of gross to run it. The vendors do pass on the cost.

    Its a leech on the economy as a whole and I refuse to take part in it. I am glad you are basking in your couple percentage points. Typical.

  20. #270
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    "Gasoline for $5 a gallon?" The New York Times wrote in February. "The possibility is hardly far-fetched."


    It's still not far-fetched, but odds of seeing $5 gas this summer are dwindling. Oil prices have dropped 9% since February, and the nationwide average cost for a gallon of gas has dipped to $3.71 down from around $3.90 earlier this year, according to the Energy Information Administration. The EIA now expects nationwide gas prices to average $3.79 this summer, down from its old forecast of $3.95 (though the fact that its old forecast was revised shows how fickle these predictions can be). Few are talking about $5 gas anymore. Four bucks might now be a stretch.


    The savings that offers U.S. consumers can't be understated. U.S. drivers consume about 344 million gallons of gas a day. If gas prices average $0.25 less this year than originally forecast, the savings adds up to $32 billion, or about $260 per household. That's real money.


    Gas prices are still high, of course. If you take average nationwide gasoline prices and adjust them for disposable income per-capita, you get this:

    Source: EIA, Federal Reserve, author's calculations.
    By this metric, real gas prices are below 2008 levels -- and well below levels seen in the late 1970s -- but still 30% above the long-term average. If gas prices today were what they were in 2000, the average American household would be saving about $2,500 a year.


    But even with high gas prices, consumers have been able to keep their spending up without much of a hiccup. Analysts worried earlier this year that a e in gas prices would cause consumer spending on things like restaurants and travel to drop. By and large, it didn't. Growth in consumer spending was one of the only bright spots in last quarter's GDP report. Retail sales are still growing nicely. Why haven't higher gas prices slowed us down?
    http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...for-4-gas.aspx

  21. #271
    I cannot grok its fullnes leemajors's Avatar
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    I'm just glad air prices dipped a bit for my trip to Denver in October.

  22. #272
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    Gulf Refinery Expansion May Not Cut Gas Prices




    In Texas this week there was a grand opening for what is now the largest refinery in the U.S. S and Saudi Arabia's national oil company, Saudi Aramco, have more than doubled the capacity of their Port Arthur refinery.

    The refinery business has been going through a tough period in recent years. Americans are buying less gasoline and other petroleum products — about 10 percent less than in 2005, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

    Refiners' profits have been squeezed between this declining demand and rising prices for the main ingredient in gasoline — oil. Across the country, refineries are shutting down because they're no longer profitable. It's surprising, then, to hear someone in the oil business get excited about a refinery expansion.

    "This is the largest manufacturing project ever done in the state of Texas," says Bob Pease, president and CEO of Motiva Enterprises, which is a 50-50 partnership between S and Saudi Aramco.

    600,000 Barrels A Day

    Expanding the refinery took five years and $10 billion. At peak construction, there were more than 14,000 people working on the project. The result: A facility that was refining 280,000 barrels a day can now process 600,000 barrels a day. (About 15 million barrels of oil a day go into U.S. refineries.)

    "Besides just capacity increases, the main thing we're getting out of this is considerable flexibility," Pease says.

    This facility can refine all kinds of oil, including the heavy crude that Saudi Arabia produces. It also can tap into some of the less expensive oil currently produced in the middle of the U.S. and Canada

    At the other end of the refinery, there's also flexibility in where the gasoline is sold. It can end up in U.S. gas tanks, or it can be shipped from the Gulf Coast to wherever in the world it is most profitable to sell.

    That ability to export is bad news for U.S. drivers worried about gas prices
    .

    "Don't expect it to have any significant impact on the prices paid for gasoline at the pumps," says Neal Walters, vice president and partner in the energy practice at consulting firm A.T. Kearney.

    U.S. A Net Exporter Of Gasoline

    In recent years, the U.S. has become a net exporter of finished petroleum products, like gasoline and diesel. This refinery expansion will contribute to that trend.

    "It increases the capacity available to export and doesn't have, in the short term, any significant impact on the supply going into the United States," Walters says.

    It also continues a trend of smaller, regional refineries shutting down in favor of production from larger, more efficient refineries, like those on the Gulf Coast.

    While this refinery expansion may not reduce gasoline prices, oil prices have declined by more than 15 percent in just the past month. Amid economic concerns, traders are worried that oil demand will be lower than they expected. That has sent gasoline prices down nearly 20 cents a gallon this month.


    http://www.npr.org/2012/05/31/154085...s?sc=17&f=1001

    The main reason XL pipeline is coming all the way to Port Arthur is for exporting to the Americas, NOT for supplying the US market.

    If US refiners can export gasoline for more profit than selling to USA, they do, including shipping "drill here drill now" US-sourced gasoline, etc.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 06-01-2012 at 11:42 AM.

  23. #273
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Well, two years later and we have new lows in prices. Barry is still the prez, go figure that one out!

  24. #274
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Can we just credit Bush and the current Congress for the lower prices and be done with it?

  25. #275
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    Can we just credit Bush and the current Congress for the lower prices and be done with it?

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