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  1. #51
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Your own opinion, which is all you have stated, says that obama is fudging numbers with how much we produce/consume. Congrats.
    Also you are acting as if the oil is dictated by the free market and not by a cartel. But so far all your gotcha seemed to fall short.
    That isn't my opinion.

    Basic economics and the data I posted are all readily findable.

    Find anything factually incorrect. Go on.

  2. #52
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You don't seem to get there's not just one cartel in the oil business.

    And hand waving is not arguing.
    The percentage of global oil production represented by OPEC has fallen over the long term, and will likely continue to fall over th next 20 years.

    A good primer can be had here.

    http://tutor2u.net/economics/revisio...rkets-oil.html

  3. #53
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I honestly don't know what works best for the oil industry, except for one thing. Supply and demand rules in the free market. You lower your price vs. the compe ion to gain market share, but if they can match you, you lose profits. Therefore, it requires a development in new technology, or a way of getting your base materials (resources) for less money. Just getting your resources for less alone will increase profits, and if you can reduce your sales price more than your compe ion, then it's a win in volume.
    And if you lower the supply of say, refined gasoline by shutting down less profitable refineries -- prices and profits can go up.

    Also profits can be maximized by shipping prodict to the market that pays the most.

    This certainly seems to be the easier route for the oil companies, since that's what they have actually done.

    If you can prove to me that several oil companies would actively seek an oil and gas glut in this country in an attempt to undercut compe ion, I would accept every argument the Heritage Foundation vomits up.

  4. #54
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    And if you lower the supply of say, refined gasoline by shutting down less profitable refineries -- prices and profits can go up.

    Also profits can be maximized by shipping prodict to the market that pays the most.

    This certainly seems to be the easier route for the oil companies, since that's what they have actually done.

    If you can prove to me that several oil companies would actively seek an oil and gas glut in this country in an attempt to undercut compe ion, I would accept every argument the Heritage Foundation vomits up.
    The problem with your theory is that one company shutting a refinery just reduces that one company's market share and profit by the output of that refinery. There are a lot of refineries owned by a lot of different companies.

    Are you claiming some kind of conspiracy where certain companies "take one for team" and close refineries (losing money in the process) to keep retail prices up for all the companies?

  5. #55
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    Closing (gasoline) refineries ups the "team" profits since intentional supply restriction ups the revenues for the team, including for the player whose other refineries now sell at higher prices.

  6. #56
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I get it. Boutons is in the "oil company conspiracy" camp. Chump? You too? Your previous post certainly seemed to suggest that.

    Oh, and just to confuse the issue with facts, here is a list of all the refineries/refiners in the US.

    http://www.eia.gov/neic/rankings/refineries.htm

  7. #57
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The problem with your theory is that one company shutting a refinery just reduces that one company's market share and profit by the output of that refinery. There are a lot of refineries owned by a lot of different companies.

    Are you claiming some kind of conspiracy where certain companies "take one for team" and close refineries (losing money in the process) to keep retail prices up for all the companies?
    Who said they lose money by shutting down those refineries?

    The companies claimed the exact opposite.

  8. #58
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    From New York to Philadelphia, refineries that turn oil into gasoline have been idled or shut permanently because their owners are losing money on them. Sunoco Inc. is expected to close the region's largest refinery in July, taking another 335,000 barrels per day in production capacity off the market.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

  9. #59
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So they DIDN'T close the refineries in order to drive up the price of gasoline for everyone.

    Thank you.

  10. #60
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So they DIDN'T close the refineries in order to drive up the price of gasoline for everyone.

    Thank you.
    So you're going to pretend that shutting down refineries doesn't drive up the price of gasoline for everyone now?

    That's ing pathetic, CC. You've been a pussy before, but this is a new low.

    Thank you for showing your true colors and agreeing that the oil companies have no incentive to drive their prices down.

  11. #61
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Do your homework Chump. There is a glut of worldwide refining capacity. The problem with these Northeast refineries is that they aren't set up to use the cheaper dirty crude and they can't meet impending EPA regulations. We aren't building new refineries in the US. The older US refineries can't compete with the new refineries being built in India, China, and the Middle East.

    So you actually believe in Boutons conspiracy theory?

  12. #62
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Do your homework Chump. There is a glut of worldwide refining capacity. The problem with these Northeast refineries is that they aren't set up to use the cheaper dirty crude and they can't meet impending EPA regulations. We aren't building new refineries in the US. The older US refineries can't compete with the new refineries being built in India, China, and the Middle East.

    So you actually believe in Boutons conspiracy theory?
    Do your homework, CC. There are no new refineries being built here because they simply aren't needed for the purposes of the oil companies -- unless they are exporting the refined products to other markets outside the US.

  13. #63
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    lol Chump and Boutons conspiracy theories.

  14. #64
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    lol Chump and Boutons conspiracy theories.
    Who said it had to be a conspiracy? It's a simple business plan.

    lol CC and his attempted complete denial of supply and demand.

  15. #65
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I totally get supply and demand. It was YOURS and BOUTONS claim they shut refineries to drive up prices.

    You totally ignored the fact that the old refineries weren't compe ive, couldn't use cheaper and dirtier oil, and couldn't meet impending EPA regulations.

  16. #66
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I totally get supply and demand. It was YOURS and BOUTONS claim they shut refineries to drive up prices.
    Ah, so you can't read what I wrote either.

    Are you playing stupid because you realized you're wrong or are you just really stupid?

  17. #67
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Ah, so you can't read what I wrote either.

    Are you playing stupid because you realized you're wrong or are you just really stupid?

    So you're going to pretend that shutting down refineries doesn't drive up the price of gasoline for everyone now?
    Looks pretty clear to me, Boutons.

  18. #68
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Looks pretty clear to me, Boutons.
    Yes, it's clear that you didn't think refineries were shutting down or their effect on prices so you made the conspiracy straw man because you're embarrassed by your own ignorance.

    Sorry I made you look bad, but you should really read at least one article on the topic being discussed before you make an idiot of yourself again.

  19. #69
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    @ chump and boutons conspiracy theory and chumps backup beeper going off.

    If you honestly think that the evil oil companies are shutting down refineries to drive up the price of gasoline don't you think that the Justice Department would be looking into it? You do know that the price of gas is a real problem for Obama politically right? You do know he's flying all over the country for the next three days doing photo ops at oil and gas installations trying to show how concerned he is with gas prices and how he's pro oil/gas production, right?

    at Bouchump...

  20. #70
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    @ chump and boutons conspiracy theory and chumps backup beeper going off.

    If you honestly think that the evil oil companies are shutting down refineries to drive up the price of gasoline don't you think that the Justice Department would be looking into it? You do know that the price of gas is a real problem for Obama politically right? You do know he's flying all over the country for the next three days doing photo ops at oil and gas installations trying to show how concerned he is with gas prices and how he's pro oil/gas production, right?

    at Bouchump...

  21. #71
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    doubling down on the conspiracy straw man isn't going to distract from your initial ignorance here.

    No conspiracy necessary. It's a simple business move.

  22. #72
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    doubling down on the conspiracy straw man isn't going to distract from your initial ignorance here.

    No conspiracy necessary. It's a simple business move.
    It was your original claim Bouchump...


    And if you lower the supply of say, refined gasoline by shutting down less profitable refineries -- prices and profits can go up.

    Also profits can be maximized by shipping prodict to the market that pays the most.

    This certainly seems to be the easier route for the oil companies, since that's what they have actually done.

    .
    And BTW "less profitable" means they were profitable. Your specific claim was they were shutting down money making refineries to drive up the price of product and make MORE money.

    It's right there in black and white.

  23. #73
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The problem with your theory is that one company shutting a refinery just reduces that one company's market share and profit by the output of that refinery. There are a lot of refineries owned by a lot of different companies.

    Are you claiming some kind of conspiracy where certain companies "take one for team" and close refineries (losing money in the process) to keep retail prices up for all the companies?
    If I may jump in here:

    Yes refineries are being closed down that are unprofitable. Smaller facilities and so forth.

    The US has actually overall ADDED capacity, because of new technology and expansions at existing facilities.

    The shut downs of unprofitable refineries are no different than a retailer shutting down unprofitable stores. In this, it does limit capacity somewhat.

    I get this from a read of Exxon's annual statement a while back as they are talking about adding the equivalent of one new refinery per year by simply making existing facilities better, and what I remember of readings since then.

    They aren't doing this in a concerted effort to keep prices higher, and this actually keeps prices lower, because loss-leaders get taken off the books.

    Hope this helps.

    Also respectfully:

    Go back an re-read a bit I think you both are missing what the other says to some degree.

  24. #74
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    It was your original claim Bouchump...




    And BTW "less profitable" means they were profitable. Your specific claim was they were shutting down money making refineries to drive up the price of product and make MORE money.

    It's right there in black and white.
    That's the oil companies' claim, dumbass. Some that are shut down are unprofitable, some are simply less profitable. Strangely enough, each refinery is different. You didn't think any refinery was being shut down for any reason.

    My specific claim was that shutting down refineries for any reason drives the price of gas up. Profitability is the reason oil companies are using now.

    Take it up with them.

    It was right there in black and white.

  25. #75
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    That's the oil companies' claim, dumbass.

    My specific claim was that shutting down refineries for any reason drives the price up. Profitability is the reason oil companies are using now.

    Take it up with them.

    It was right there in black and white.

    *beep*beep*beep*beep* goes the backup buzzer


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