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  1. #76
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    *beep*beep*beep*beep* goes the backup buzzer

    Eh, you're still angry about being so wrong in the first place.

    You can play stupid all you want, we know you're just being a pussy. You have a very fragile ego, CC.

  2. #77
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Eh, you're still angry about being so wrong in the first place.

    You can play stupid all you want, we know you're just being a pussy. You have a very fragile ego, CC.


    Yes, it's clear that you didn't think refineries were shutting down or their effect on prices so you made the conspiracy straw man because you're embarrassed by your own ignorance.
    Care to showe me the quote where I said refineries weren't being shut down?

    Yeah, I didn't think so.

    *beep*beep*beep* goes Bouchump.

  3. #78
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So you're backing up now?

    lol losing market share

    *beep*beep*beep* goes CC

  4. #79
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Your own opinion, which is all you have stated, says that obama is fudging numbers with how much we produce/consume. Congrats.
    Also you are acting as if the oil is dictated by the free market and not by a cartel. But so far all your gotcha seemed to fall short.
    1) If Obama is fudging, it would be productive for you to tell us what and how, if you know.

    2) What I gave wasn't my opinion.

    US oil reserves represent 1.3% of world total. (page 22)
    US oil production represents 7% of world total. I was wrong tho. It used to be 10%. My bad. (pg 30)
    OPEC represents 44% of world production of oil.
    http://www.opec.org/opec_web/static_...B2010_2011.pdf

    OPECs ability to set prices is severely limited by the fact that the cartel does not represent even 50% of the world's oil production.

    United States has added refinery capacity in each of the last five years, BTW.
    (page 38 of the statistical extract for 2010)

    That is why I "act" as if oil prices are set by market forces.


    My "gotcha" has relevant data, backed up by sound economics. I am going to bookmark/save this thread.

    You can try to back up heritages' bull if you want. You will fail, because you let yourself get lied to, as I have pointed out. I hope you will try, maybe then you can see for yourself, instead of making me do the work you should have done in the first place.

    That is not a nice thing to say, and I realize you are at heart a decent person, but if you suck this stuff up without a modi of understanding or fact checking, solely because you *want* to believe it, I'm sorry.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 03-19-2012 at 11:48 AM.

  5. #80
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    United States
    17,272.6 ---2006
    17,447.2
    17,379.7 ---2008
    17,763.5
    17,869.2 ---2010
    % change0.6

    My bad, it went down a little in 2008, during the crisis.

  6. #81
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE WILL HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THE GLOBAL PRICE OF OIL.

    --This is not my opinion.

    They have several other proposed pipelines besides the Keystone pipeline.

    Global prices are just that, global.

    If Canada sells that oil to China from its west coast ports, then China buys less from the rest of the world, and the rest of the world then charges the US a bit less for its imports.

    Fun.
    Gi.
    Ble.

    Even if the US completely met its oil needs by domestic production, we would still be vulnerable to oil supply shocks in the middle east.

    Middle east oil withdraws--> world consumers bid up prices--> US producers then can export oil more profibably--> domestic supplies go down-->US prices then go up.

    This is how drilling all the oil we consume still exposes us to middle east /Africa instability.

    The ONLY way to reduce your dependence on this area of the world, aside from government directives to private companies about who they can sell for, and for how much, is to use less oil.

    QED. Basic economics.

  7. #82
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So you're backing up now?

    lol losing market share

    *beep*beep*beep* goes CC
    What the are you talking about?

  8. #83
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    1) If Obama is fudging, it would be productive for you to tell us what and how, if you know.
    Heritage says so! They tell me to believe what I already believe without their telling me what to believe!

  9. #84
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE WILL HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THE GLOBAL PRICE OF OIL.

    --This is not my opinion.

    They have several other proposed pipelines besides the Keystone pipeline.

    Global prices are just that, global.

    If Canada sells that oil to China from its west coast ports, then China buys less from the rest of the world, and the rest of the world then charges the US a bit less for its imports.

    Fun.
    Gi.
    Ble.

    Even if the US completely met its oil needs by domestic production, we would still be vulnerable to oil supply shocks in the middle east.

    Middle east oil withdraws--> world consumers bid up prices--> US producers then can export oil more profibably--> domestic supplies go down-->US prices then go up.

    This is how drilling all the oil we consume still exposes us to middle east /Africa instability.

    The ONLY way to reduce your dependence on this area of the world, aside from government directives to private companies about who they can sell for, and for how much, is to use less oil.

    QED. Basic economics.
    Agreed

  10. #85
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    What the are you talking about?
    I can believe you don't even understand your own "argument" at this point.

  11. #86
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I can believe you don't even understand your own "argument" at this point.
    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    If you are going to claim I backed up then post the original quote you are claiming I backed up from.

    Yeah.

    I didn't think you could.

  12. #87
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    If you are going to claim I backed up then post the original quote you are claiming I backed up from.

    Yeah.

    I didn't think you could.
    lol market share again

    You might want to go back and read what you said.

    You didn't back up your claim I said there was a conspiracy at all -- because there is no conspiracy. Just a series of business decisions based on the weakening of demand in the US.

    Over the past few years, integrated oil companies have sought to rationalize their downstream (i.e., refining and marketing) operations, divesting less profitable refineries in the US in favor of facilities in the Middle East and Asian emerging markets, two regions that offer superior margins and growth prospects. The list below provides an overview of what some of the world’s biggest oil and gas companies have in store for their downstream operations.

    BP (LSE: BP, NYSE: BP) in early 2011 announced plans to roughly halve its US refining capacity and has placed its Texas City and Carson, Calif. on the sales block.

    Chevron Corp (NYSE: CVX) is in the midst of a three-year plan to rationalize its downstream operations. At the end of 2010, the company had exited seven countries and most markets on the US East Coast. In the first quarter, Chevron announced the sale of its Pembroke refinery and associated marketing assets in the UK and Ireland. Meanwhile, the company completed the sale of its downstream operations in the eastern Caribbean and several African nations. Management also announced a deal to divest its downstream operations in Spain.

    ConocoPhillips (NYSE: COP) has established a goal of reducing its downstream exposure to 15 to 20 percent of overall revenue from 20 to 25 percent of revenue. In 2011 management plans to sell $1 billion worth of downstream assets.

    Royal Dutch S (NYSE: RDS.A) has been restructuring its downstream operations since 2009 to divest smaller facilities and focus on Asia-Pacific and other markets with high growth potential. By 2012, management expects to reduce its downstream portfolio by a further 700,000 barrels per day.

    Total (France: FP, NYSE: TOT) plans to lower its gasoline output by 60 percent and has placed its UK Lindsey refinery, which accounts for 20 percent of its overall capacity, on the sales block.

    Independent US refiners have also moved to reduce capacity, selling or closing smaller (and therefore less-efficient) plants on the East Coast–a highly compe ive region that lacks access to cheaper domestically produced crude oil. The majority of oil refined at East Coast facilities arrives via tanker from Nigeria, the North Sea and other international locations.

    Valero Energy Corp (NYSE: VLO), the largest US independent, sold its Delaware City and Paulsboro, N.J. refineries.

    Sunoco (NYSE: SUN) in 2009 shuttered its Eagle Point refinery in Westville, N.J.

    These efforts to reduce US refining capacity–primarily by closing smaller, less-efficient facilities–have improved the industry’s profit margins, while a recovery in US oil demand has also contributed to refiners’ newfound profitability.
    http://www.investingdaily.com/13541/...efining-stocks

    The simple fact is that refining is one of the least profitable components of the oil industry. One the big oil companies have moved away from (market share!). Ultimately the shutting down of less or non-profitable refineries increases the profitability of the remaining ones in no small part due to the resulting higher gas prices.

    If you think that's a conspiracy, that's your business.

    If you think the oil companies are motivated to lower the price of gas at this point, you're simply an idiot.

  13. #88
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Glad you did some homework and finally realized that there is a difference between oil producers and oil refiners. The driving force of higher gas prices is the increased cost of oil feed stocks for the refineries. Refiners can actually make LESS with high gas prices because their profits are based on a set margin per gallon and when demand drops because of higher prices then profit drops too.

  14. #89
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Glad you did some homework and finally realized that there is a difference between oil producers and oil refiners. The driving force of higher gas prices is the increased cost of oil feed stocks for the refineries. Refiners can actually make LESS with high gas prices because their profits are based on a set margin per gallon and when demand drops because of higher prices then profit drops too.
    Thanks for agreeing with what I was saying all along.

    You believe in the "conspiracy"!

  15. #90
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Damn Chump...you are such a tool...That's not what you said at all and you know it. You and Boutons said they shut refineries in order increase the price of gas and increase their profits.

  16. #91
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Damn Chump...you are such a tool...That's not what you said at all and you know it. You and Boutons said they shut refineries in order increase the price of gas and increase their profits.
    I definitely claimed the latter because that is their stated goal. The former is a very convenient and not at all accidental byproduct for the oil companies who are still in refining and also helps overall profitability.

    No need for a conspiracy, though.

  17. #92
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I definitely claimed the latter because that is their stated goal. The former is a very convenient and not at all accidental byproduct for the oil companies who are still in refining and also helps overall profitability.

    No need for a conspiracy, though.
    The oil companies stated goal was to increase the cost of gasoline at the pump?

    Care to provide a link to this stated goal?

  18. #93
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The oil companies stated goal was to increase the cost of gasoline at the pump?

    Care to provide a link to this stated goal?
    So now you don't know the difference between former and latter?

    You really are stupid.

  19. #94
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So now you don't know the difference between former and latter?

    You really are stupid.
    Your words earlier in the thread:

    And if you lower the supply of say, refined gasoline by shutting down less profitable refineries -- prices and profits can go up.
    You really are inconsistent.

  20. #95
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    They can go up. They have gone up. They are going up. Without a conspiracy.

    What is your problem with that?

  21. #96
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    They can go up. They have gone up. They are going up. Without a conspiracy.

    What is your problem with that?
    So you do maintain that "they" (the group of refinery owners as a whole) shut refineries in order to reduce supply and drive up the cost of gasoline and make higher profits.

    Is this correct?

  22. #97
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So you do maintain that "they" (the group of refinery owners as a whole) shut refineries in order to drive up the cost of gasoline and make higher profits.

    Is this correct?
    Incorrect.

    You're still stuck on stupid.

    Look up former and latter and tell me what they mean.

  23. #98
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    You're still stuck on stupid.

    Look up former and latter and tell me what they mean.
    Why don't you just answer the question? Is that your claim or not?

  24. #99
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Why don't you just answer the question?
    I knew you were too stupid to infer, so I edited above to include the answer.

  25. #100
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    So you do maintain that "they" (the group of refinery owners as a whole) shut refineries in order to reduce supply and drive up the cost of gasoline and make higher profits.

    Is this correct?
    So you now say that statement is incorrect and these aren't saying the same thing?


    And if you lower the supply of say, refined gasoline by shutting down less profitable refineries -- prices and profits can go up.
    *beep*beep*beep*beep*

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