Any of you ACTUALLY believe our friend Jesus

[RandomGuy]

It's natural to give up on religion/faith when the going gets tough in life. We may die of some unjustly of some disease, or our son or daughter might die before they reach old age. But that's not a reason to give up on faith. Or science for that matter. ustedes siganle chingando en la vida, no matter what! Keep on working, pay your child support, honor your mother and father, behave how you would like your sons and daughters/brothers and sisters to be treated, and wait for that day that you die.

I dunno. The bible and religions tend to be very clear about the power of prayer.

If you ask it, God/whatever will give it.

God fails to grant prayers all the time, despite these promises.

That seems to me to be a good indication that one should give up on something that is obviously useless.

[Ginobilly]

The Father is a sick bas in the Old Testament.

Why would I want anything to do with him?

The people are the sick bas s in the whole bible. God is not the one that is doing the rapping of children and women, killing and enslaving innocent people, unjust laws all over the world. Jesus had to die for the sins of society. What the "son" imo means, is that societies "Fathers and Mothers" must teach our sons who to honor. And mothers and fathers must also honor their sons and daughters by teaching us to live the right way and be like Jesus. Philosophy was different before Jesus arrived. Rich men where at the top of society and children and women where at the bottom. Your dad could just kill you if you disobeyed him or was envious that you might take his place. And when you have societies like that, it opens the door to perverse societies. The story of the bible is Gods mission to correct all the wrongs between itself and humanity by teaching us how does he want us to live our lives by giving us free will to make our own decisions and choices. We are all held accountable for all the sins we commit! Guess you better pay your child support mouse!

[Blake]

The people are the sick bas s in the whole bible. God is not the one that is doing the rapping of children and women, killing and enslaving innocent people, unjust laws all over the world.

God murdered everyone but noah and crew during the flood.

He also allowed the Hebrews to own slaves.

He's sick.

[Ginobilly]

Pretty good reasons to give up on faith, imo.

Every single human being on Earth struggles with this. We have all cursed God at one point or another. Things happen in live that sometimes you have no control over and you will never understand why. But we have control over our thoughts and what we do in this physical life. Remember Jesus suffered too! If he suffered, we could all suffer with him!

[Ginobilly]

God murdered everyone but noah and crew during the flood.

He also allowed the Hebrews to own slaves.

He's sick.

He murdered them to correct them because they had some ed Caligula/Sodom and Gomorrah type of societies, but he also gave them a fresh restart and forgave them because God loves humanity. If your a parent Blake, and your children are outta control. Beating up helpless kids, doing drugs, talking back and dishonoring both you and your wife. What would you do as a parent?


The bible does say that slaves should run back to their masters and not to run away. But also says that you should pay your "slave" or worker fairly and treat him right. The bible was written long ago! what you interpret as "slave", now means a worker. So if T-park pays his slaves or workers $7.25 an hour instead of the more fair $10 dollars an hour, his committing sin.

[mouse]

Those were fair and honest questions.

They are loaded questions, but its ok I will bite.

If you like, handle them one at a time.

I will and I will use just one post in doing so.

How do you know something to be true?

I don't, I can only go by what I see and what makes sense.

If someone tells me the Spurs lost by 80 points I would check out the highlights on tv first. But if they say they lost by 4 points I may just take their word for it.

The problem with your pal Darwin is he would say the spurs would have lost by only 2 points if Tim Duncan had used his tail to block that last shot.

Or that the Refs at one time were Zebras because they still have stripes.

To me that makes no sense. So I look at the damage the water from the Tsunami did in Japan in just one day and multiply it by lets say 40 days and I can only imagine how much that could effect the earth. And how the Grand canyon could have been carved in a few months of run off.

I look at the Mississippi river and the Niagara falls and know it doesn't makes sense for the earth to have any river older than "A Million" years it would be unthinkable to have Water falls older than 900 thousand years the erosion would be to much.

I Look at comets that Scientist claim are a result of the big bang and wonder why the oldest comet is 10,000 years old. and if comets have been around for millions of years how can they still be burning.

I look at the worlds oldest Coral reef that scientist say is 5,500 years old and wonder where is the million year old reef.

I look at the earths oldest tree at 20,000 years old and wonder where are the petrified 50,000 year old trees at.

what there where no trees 25 million years ago when Dinosaurs were here?

I look at the moon that scientist claim is drifting from the earth at 4 inches a year and do the math if the earth is 4 billion years old how close would the moon be.

I look at all the Carbon dating flaws scientist have every year when the same sample is sent to 3 different labs and come back with three different dates.

I wonder why the carbon dating labs not knowing where the dirt samples came from say that the dirt samples they tested show the dirt in the middle of the grand canyon is the same age as the dirt on the top of the grand canyon.

I go to the zoo and can't find a Chimp with no tail and wearing clothes.

I wonder if the Earth's rotation is slowing at the rate of one thousandth of a second per day. At this rate a billion years ago it would have been spinning so fast that centrifugal force would have caused it to fly apart



I say to myself if the rate of population growth has been steady for the time that we have records. The present six billion is the right number of people to have multiplied from the eight survivors of the universal flood about 4400 years ago. If man had been around for millions of years, the same growth rate would have produced 150,000 people per square inch of land surface.

I find myself puzzled that we know space dust ac ulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.


I think about the ac ulation of helium in the atmosphere implies a maximum age of no more than 10,000 years. Buildup of radiocarbon in the atmosphere would produce all of the world's radiocarbon in only several thousand years.


I even wonder if The planet Saturn is losing its rings. And scientist know they are slowly moving away. If the planet were millions of years old, the material in the rings would have dissipated long ago.

I say to myself how can it be that if man stopped evolving 100,000 years ago, he only learned how to form civilizations and write within the last 5-10,000 years? Also, the oldest civilizations appear around the world about the same time, and all were already very advanced, building marvelous structures (like the pyramids). There is no indication of a general evolution of civilization.

so as you can see I go by what is here now and not by some book written by a bearded man with an agenda from the 1800's

What process do yo use to figure things out for yourself?

I take all the data that is available and and weed out anyone that claims they know what happened millions and billions of years ago and can't even figure out how the pyramids got built and at the end you end up with basic simple solutions that make sense.

This isn't rocket science this is really basic common sense. (well to those of us who think clearly and really look for answers and aren't out to disprove creation)

If you want to buy a car from an ad in the paper that says "great car, it runs beautifully", do you simply wait for someone to drop it off, hand the guy a check, and let him go on his way?

It depends if the man shows up with a motorcycle and tells me to wait a few million years for it to evolve into a car.

[Blake]

Remember Jesus suffered too! If he suffered, we could all suffer with him!

God likes to watch people suffer.

Sick.

[Blake]

He murdered them to correct them because they had some ed Caligula/Sodom and Gomorrah type of societies, but he also gave them a fresh restart and forgave them because God loves humanity.

He didn't give those individuals a fresh restart.

He murdered them and sent them to .

If your a parent Blake, and your children are outta control. Beating up helpless kids, doing drugs, talking back and dishonoring both you and your wife. What would you do as a parent?

I scold them as any normal human parent would do.

If I were to follow the example that old testament god laid out, I would simply kill the bad kids and just make some more.

The bible does say that slaves should run back to their masters and not to run away. But also says that you should pay your "slave" or worker fairly and treat him right. The bible was written long ago! what you interpret as "slave", now means a worker. So if T-park pays his slaves or workers $7.25 an hour instead of the more fair $10 dollars an hour, his committing sin.

No, the Bible clearly says God allowed the Hebrews to actually own other humans.

[RandomGuy]

The people are the sick bas s in the whole bible. God is not the one that is doing the rapping of children and women, killing and enslaving innocent people, unjust laws all over the world.

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."



"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.


Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Sure it was the people doing all of that.

But they did it because God told them to.

This wasn't people, if the bible is to be believed. It was the order of God.

I stopped after a few examples. There are far more.

The Bible is not really taught in churches or sunday schools. The uncomfortable stuff is glossed over for a good reason.

[RandomGuy]

God loves humanity. If your a parent Blake, and your children are outta control. Beating up helpless kids, doing drugs, talking back and dishonoring both you and your wife. What would you do as a parent?

I would not lock them in the basement and torture them for eternity.

That isn't love.

is infinite torture for finite crimes. That seems to me to be a bit of an disproportionate response.

If my kid did that, and I locked him in the basement to torture him out of it, I would go to jail, and rightly so.

[mouse]

RandomGuy is raising the debate bar

[RandomGuy]

No, the Bible clearly says God allowed the Hebrews to actually own other humans.

Yup. As long as they weren't other Hebrews.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

[RandomGuy]

I take all the data that is available and and weed out anyone that claims they know what happened millions and billions of years ago and can't even figure out how the pyramids got built and at the end you end up with basic simple solutions that make sense.

Creationists are telling you equally what happened billions of years ago.

You also didn't really answer my question.

If the guy shows up with a car, do you just take his word for that the car is ok, and hand him a check?

The honest answer is no, you wouldn't.

What would you do to determine whether or not to buy the car?

Serious question.

[RandomGuy]

Or that the Refs at one time were Zebras because they still have stripes.

To me that makes no sense. So I look at the damage the water from the Tsunami did in Japan in just one day and multiply it by lets say 40 days and I can only imagine how much that could effect the earth. And how the Grand canyon could have been carved in a few months of run off.

I look at the Mississippi river and the Niagara falls and know it doesn't makes sense for the earth to have any river older than "A Million" years it would be unthinkable to have Water falls older than 900 thousand years the erosion would be to much.

I Look at comets that Scientist claim are a result of the big bang and wonder why the oldest comet is 10,000 years old. and if comets have been around for millions of years how can they still be burning.

I look at the worlds oldest Coral reef that scientist say is 5,500 years old and wonder where is the million year old reef.

I look at the earths oldest tree at 20,000 years old and wonder where are the petrified 50,000 year old trees at.

what there where no trees 25 million years ago when Dinosaurs were here?

I look at the moon that scientist claim is drifting from the earth at 4 inches a year and do the math if the earth is 4 billion years old how close would the moon be.

I look at all the Carbon dating flaws scientist have every year when the same sample is sent to 3 different labs and come back with three different dates.

I wonder why the carbon dating labs not knowing where the dirt samples came from say that the dirt samples they tested show the dirt in the middle of the grand canyon is the same age as the dirt on the top of the grand canyon.

I go to the zoo and can't find a Chimp with no tail and wearing clothes.

I wonder if the Earth's rotation is slowing at the rate of one thousandth of a second per day. At this rate a billion years ago it would have been spinning so fast that centrifugal force would have caused it to fly apart



I say to myself if the rate of population growth has been steady for the time that we have records. The present six billion is the right number of people to have multiplied from the eight survivors of the universal flood about 4400 years ago. If man had been around for millions of years, the same growth rate would have produced 150,000 people per square inch of land surface.

I find myself puzzled that we know space dust ac ulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.


I think about the ac ulation of helium in the atmosphere implies a maximum age of no more than 10,000 years. Buildup of radiocarbon in the atmosphere would produce all of the world's radiocarbon in only several thousand years.


I even wonder if The planet Saturn is losing its rings. And scientist know they are slowly moving away. If the planet were millions of years old, the material in the rings would have dissipated long ago.

All of this has already been debunked. It is either bad logic or factually incorrect.

Science produces answers and experiements and observations that can be reproduced, and verified.

You are "thinking about" things that are provably lies.

The people lying to you about them, have a huge motivation to lie to you about them. They want you to believe their story about God, and buy into their religion.

Not all the lies are intentional. Some of them are very bad distortions of reality, based on gross ignorance of what science says about things.

They are all still lies.

Why do you believe *these* lies, but think scientists are the ones lying?

[Blake]

RandomGuy is raising the debate bar

Stop lowering it

[mouse]

Creationists are telling you equally what happened billions of years ago.

When did I post I support creation?

[RandomGuy]

Scientist make sure only they're views are in the school books.





yes I have, sorry brah but your slow tonight and it may really take another page or two before your realize it.

I think your like a wounded camel in the desert and I am the Baking Sun burning your right through your paper thin theories like a new employee at Churches chicken burns the hash browns ......
to be honest I kinda feel guilty... like I should offer you a lifeline we all make mistakes.

Sorry, I'm not going to take the bait. You are boring me, and I don't care what you think about your own abilities.

You can't answer honest questions, so I guess we are really done.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yup. As long as they weren't other Hebrews.

This is the biggest problem i have with modern christianity. These parts of Exodus, Leviticus etc are no longer valid. OTOH, other parts still are valid.

Now I can get the part about how all the issues regarding animal sacrifices and absolution because of Jesus throwing a fit in the temple and what the supposed point of him being crucified. But the rest of it they just pick and choose from.

I find that even more reprehensible than the 'you have to take it figuratively' copout. Picking and choosing like that is an obvious logical inconsistency. To me, that makes it morally irrelevant other than a bunch of people trying to enforce what they've chosen anyway.

[mouse]

All of this has already been debunked.

Then why are you here?

[mouse]

Random why you keep saying "Creationist" are telling me what happen 4 billion years ago I don't support that Thoery why must we rehash this point on every page?

[HennyYoungman]

How does Moses make his tea?


Hebrews it!

[mouse]

How does Moses make his tea?


Hebrews it!

Anyone take your wife yet?

[Proxy]

When did I post I don't believe in Evoulution?

My replies has to do with "lies" posted as "facts"

People can believe in anything they wish just don't call it Science.

You see that is were the little brains in this topic Lose what little focus they might have had on this subject.

Evolution is a "Theory" the same as Nohas Ark they don't belong in the school books as facts.

That is absolutely wrong. The theory of evolution is supported by recorded factual data. Noah's arc is a biblical story.

"Outside of science, you might say something is 'just a theory', meaning it's supposition that may or may not be true. In science, a theory is an explanation that generally is accepted to be true." .... "A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it."

... so this being said, the Theory of Evolution is something that has been thoroughly tested on several levels of science. It has not been disproven by anything at all. We have even observed Evolution at work in very modern times through the adaption of insects to farming pesticides.

Noah's Arc does not pass the scientific tests required to qualify as something factual. This seems painfully obvious... there would be obvious evidence if the Earth had been flooded. It's silly to assume that every species that exists at this present moment survived on an arc from only a pair of it's kind.

So if science is something taught in school, Evolution is something that passes every scientific test so far... so it belongs there. Noah's Arc does not because it is a fictional story. The beautiful thing about science is that if Evolution is ever proven wrong, it will be taken out of the books.

All the texts books have to say is "sciencetist believe man may have Evolved from a snail and say others believe man was created and all is well let the students decide for themselves on how they may have got here on planet earth.


Until you find chimp that is half man half ape and until someone can prove the earth took 7 days to create it's all "theory" and religion.

All life on earth has evolved from a common ancestor. Scientists are constantly finding more links between man and ape.

... but this is just the "God of the Gaps" fallacy, as Neil Degrasse Tyson would say.... your basis and stance is an ever receding gap of ignorance. The bigger picture is understanding that all life branched at forks in the road.

And fyi, we know for a fact that the Earth was not created in 7 days. We understand how nebulas function and how stars are created and how they die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent

Students have a hard enough time trying to learn to spell and add numbers why must Darwin or John 3:16 be in the classroom?

You're promoting ignorance.... and you're talking about things you know nothing about. Your basis on several of these topics are just what you've heard on conservative shows. Instead of repeating what some moron has said for publicity, you should do research yourself.

Your lack of knowledge of common ancestry, the scientific meaning of the word 'theory,' the process of star birth and death and it's orbiting heavenly bodies/satellites/planets/moons/asteroids.... and to be honest, your grammar, are all indications to me that you're in way over your head in a debate like this.

[mouse]

All of this has already been debunked. It is either bad logic or factually incorrect.

Link?

Science produces answers and experiements and observations that can be reproduced, and verified.

By who?

You are "thinking about" things that are provably lies.

Name the lies.

The people lying to you about them, have a huge motivation to lie to you about them. They want you to believe their story about God, and buy into their religion.

The same can be said about Darwin

No one is telling me anything I have eyes I can see the grand canyon where are the fossils?

not all the lies are intentional. Some of them are very bad distortions of reality, based on gross ignorance of what science says about things.

Glad you brought that up since Evoilution us on taught in a America

they are all still lies.

And your proof?

Why do you believe *these* lies, but think scientists are the ones lying?

why do you believe In Evoilution?


I believe in the facts and man evolving from an ape is theory please know the difference if we are to move foward.

[redzero]

Do you believe in gravity, mouse?