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  1. #151
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Evolution has been reproduced under controlled settings. There is a famous, multi-decade and still going, experiment with bacteria that have developed the ability to metabolize (citric acid? can't remember exactly which)

    We also know, in a very detailed manner, how mutations happen, and generally what causes specific mutations.

    We have done a LOT of drilling down into the basic molecular DNA/RNA level to figure this out.

    I got to audit my wife's class on evolution a few times to get the newest stuff, but we are doing some serious tinkering with the building blocks to see how this all works.
    Admittedly, I am way out of the game with evolution anymore. I wasnt referring to basic organisms like bacteria in my explanation above, which doesnt make my statement about "controlled settings in a lab" any less true.

    I was more referring to how birds of the same genus, when separated, will eventually become two separate and unique species given time. More or less referring to higher order organism evolution not being able to be reproduced in a lab, under controlled settings, because the life cycle on that experiment would exceed many lifetimes.

    Again, my explanation was inherently inaccurate nonetheless.
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  2. #152
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I keep bringing it out becase it hasn't sunk in yet in your very limited mind the point I try to make. So here goes again for the #198th time....

    Scientist claim the earth was formed 4 billion years ago after two billion years the earth cooled down and in the huge pools of liquid very small oranizums swimming in these pools formed into various life forms one being a snail < IMPORTANT

    Now put down the bing for 90 seconds and remember if snails were one of the first life forms to "Evolve" from this pool of liquid then....>IMPORTANT> any life form from that point on is a result from that very "Snail" including you your your cousin vinny and your very annoing ignorant stepson redzero.
    The communication problem is on *my* end...?

    First off your "snail" here isn't a snail. It is a very primitive animal of some sort. Animal in this sense simply means "non-plant".

    The picture you keep posting is a hugely simplified, and somewhat dated, example of a phylogenetic tree.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree

    You would be more accurate to use the word "eukaryote". Substitute that word for "snail" and you would have it correctly.

    snails, birds, and humans, all do have common ancestors, but the split between humans and snails occurred in the very distant past. This split seems to have occurred from an ancestor that was barely multicellular, and quite possibly unicellular.

    Snails were NOT one of the first forms of life to evolve, and that is NOT what "scientists say". Snails did come along much later, but still before humans, but they are not our direct ancestor anymore than our cousin is our ancestor.
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  3. #153
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Admittedly, I am way out of the game with evolution anymore. I wasnt referring to basic organisms like bacteria in my explanation above, which doesnt make my statement about "controlled settings in a lab" any less true.

    I was more referring to how birds of the same genus, when separated, will eventually become two separate and unique species given time. More or less referring to higher order organism evolution not being able to be reproduced in a lab, under controlled settings, because the life cycle on that experiment would exceed many lifetimes.

    Again, my explanation was inherently inaccurate nonetheless.
    Ah, gotcha.

    You do have the basic mechanisms of evolution correct though, i.e. separation and time.

    I am not aware of any larger animals that have been the subject of such experiments, but now that we have been looking, we have had almost 150 years or so to observe it happening in the wild and have several examples of new species that have arisen since we have really started identifying and classifying things.

    These things tend to be short lived things like annual plants, insects, and small animals with shorter life spans.

  4. #154
    Believe me. Blake's Avatar
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    I've tried explaining this very difference to the agnostic/athiest folks in here before... i.e. the differences in GOD's interaction with humanity on account of the Covenants at play. In other words, GOD's Old Covenant "behavior" is not nearly as gracious as HIS New Covenant "behavior" simply because Jesus' atonement for us, HIS redemptive act for us, HIS sanctifying act for us, had not occured before the New Covenant was extended by Jesus. Furthermore that the Old Covenant was extended only to the descendants of Abraham, whereas the New Covenant is extended to all and any who would accept it... and that yes, that is a choice we ultimately have to make...

    But don't even bother trying to explain that further, because these folks think they have it all figured out... they simply don't care to truly understand. They're derisive, arrogant and beligerent all wrapped up with bitterness and scorn. They love, absolutely LOVE, mocking GOD and HIS believers. They get a rise out of it, simply to pat themselves on the back and to continue justifying their own disbelief... This is one of those subjects I no longer care to discuss with them (I'd rather chat about the Spurs or Soccer, or the latest movie, technology, etc...)... but just for your sake, don't waste your time either...
    Rofl

    Don't try to explain the obvious flaws of the Bible to Phenomanul. He'll simply get butthurt and cry that you're just being mean.

  5. #155
    Real Warrior Warlord23's Avatar
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    Admittedly, I am way out of the game with evolution anymore. I wasnt referring to basic organisms like bacteria in my explanation above, which doesnt make my statement about "controlled settings in a lab" any less true.

    I was more referring to how birds of the same genus, when separated, will eventually become two separate and unique species given time. More or less referring to higher order organism evolution not being able to be reproduced in a lab, under controlled settings, because the life cycle on that experiment would exceed many lifetimes.

    Again, my explanation was inherently inaccurate nonetheless.
    Experiments have been done on more complex organisms than bacteria. There was this experiment regarding the color of fish in 2 different streams. It was originally observed that fish in one stream were brightly colored, while in the other they took on the color of the river bed (almost as a camouflage). This was correlated with the absence of predators in the first stream (allowing the fish to attract its mate by sporting bright colors) and the presence of predators in the second (where survival via hiding was the dominant gene that was passed down).

    Now the experimenter took some colored fish and introduced them into a controlled environment where predators were abundant. Over a few generations, the fish stopped displaying bright colors and adopted dull colors similar to the river bed. The converse was also done, and mud-colored fish began showing off bright colors in a predator-free environment. IIRC several other factors were also introduced, and each time the genes that were passed down were the ones that, on balance, aided survival and reproduction the most. It's a terrific demonstration of natural selection in action IMO.

  6. #156
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Experiments have been done on more complex organisms than bacteria. There was this experiment regarding the color of fish in 2 different streams. It was originally observed that fish in one stream were brightly colored, while in the other they took on the color of the river bed (almost as a camouflage). This was correlated with the absence of predators in the first stream (allowing the fish to attract its mate by sporting bright colors) and the presence of predators in the second (where survival via hiding was the dominant gene that was passed down).

    Now the experimenter took some colored fish and introduced them into a controlled environment where predators were abundant. Over a few generations, the fish stopped displaying bright colors and adopted dull colors similar to the river bed. The converse was also done, and mud-colored fish began showing off bright colors in a predator-free environment. IIRC several other factors were also introduced, and each time the genes that were passed down were the ones that, on balance, aided survival and reproduction the most. It's a terrific demonstration of natural selection in action IMO.
    One has to be careful in distinguishing between actual species, and simply changing dominant traits *within* a species.

    When one digs into the details and definitions, there is even some ambiguity as to what exactly constitutes a "species", simply because reality is not always stark black and white, with lots of shades of gray.

  7. #157
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I've tried explaining this very difference to the agnostic/athiest folks in here before... i.e. the differences in GOD's interaction with humanity on account of the Covenants at play. In other words, GOD's Old Covenant "behavior" is not nearly as gracious as HIS New Covenant "behavior" simply because Jesus' atonement for us, HIS redemptive act for us, HIS sanctifying act for us, had not occured before the New Covenant was extended by Jesus. Furthermore that the Old Covenant was extended only to the descendants of Abraham, whereas the New Covenant is extended to all and any who would accept it... and that yes, that is a choice we ultimately have to make...

    But don't even bother trying to explain that further, because these folks think they have it all figured out... they simply don't care to truly understand. They're derisive, arrogant and beligerent all wrapped up with bitterness and scorn. They love, absolutely LOVE, mocking GOD and HIS believers. They get a rise out of it, simply to pat themselves on the back and to continue justifying their own disbelief... This is one of those subjects I no longer care to discuss with them (I'd rather chat about the Spurs or Soccer, or the latest movie, technology, etc...)... but just for your sake, don't waste your time either...
    I am not sure what needs explaining.

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  8. #158
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I've tried explaining this very difference to the agnostic/athiest folks in here before... i.e. the differences in GOD's interaction with humanity on account of the Covenants at play. In other words, GOD's Old Covenant "behavior" is not nearly as gracious as HIS New Covenant "behavior" simply because Jesus' atonement for us, HIS redemptive act for us, HIS sanctifying act for us, had not occured before the New Covenant was extended by Jesus. Furthermore that the Old Covenant was extended only to the descendants of Abraham, whereas the New Covenant is extended to all and any who would accept it... and that yes, that is a choice we ultimately have to make...

    But don't even bother trying to explain that further, because these folks think they have it all figured out... they simply don't care to truly understand. They're derisive, arrogant and beligerent all wrapped up with bitterness and scorn. They love, absolutely LOVE, mocking GOD and HIS believers. They get a rise out of it, simply to pat themselves on the back and to continue justifying their own disbelief... This is one of those subjects I no longer care to discuss with them (I'd rather chat about the Spurs or Soccer, or the latest movie, technology, etc...)... but just for your sake, don't waste your time either...
    So you have the old covenant for jews. The new covenant for the gentiles, i.e. the jews that accepted Jesus as savior.

    What about the people on the planet that don't fit into those two categories? What covenent do they get?

  9. #159
    Real Warrior Warlord23's Avatar
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    One has to be careful in distinguishing between actual species, and simply changing dominant traits *within* a species.

    When one digs into the details and definitions, there is even some ambiguity as to what exactly constitutes a "species", simply because reality is not always stark black and white, with lots of shades of gray.
    You're right, strictly speaking my example was about dominant traits and the role of natural selection in changing traits. However, If anything needed defending or proving, it might be natural selection, which is the prominent theory behind evolution.

    Evolution itself is a fact. No reputable biologist will deny that. A few may consider alternatives to natural selection to explain evolution, but the argument about evolution itself doesn't exist outside closeted, ultra-religious circles.

  10. #160
    Believe me. Blake's Avatar
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    So you have the old covenant for jews. The new covenant for the gentiles, i.e. the jews that accepted Jesus as savior.

    What about the people on the planet that don't fit into those two categories? What covenent do they get?
    Has the Old Covenant been scrapped, or are modern day Jews going to hell?

  11. #161
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Has the Old Covenant been scrapped, or are modern day Jews going to hell?
    I dunno what exactly is canon in the various wings of Christianity. Not my cup of tea overall, although I have gained a fair familiarity with various dogmas.

  12. #162
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    I've tried explaining this very difference to the agnostic/athiest folks in here before... i.e. the differences in GOD's interaction with humanity on account of the Covenants at play. In other words, GOD's Old Covenant "behavior" is not nearly as gracious as HIS New Covenant "behavior" simply because Jesus' atonement for us, HIS redemptive act for us, HIS sanctifying act for us, had not occured before the New Covenant was extended by Jesus. Furthermore that the Old Covenant was extended only to the descendants of Abraham, whereas the New Covenant is extended to all and any who would accept it... and that yes, that is a choice we ultimately have to make...

    But don't even bother trying to explain that further, because these folks think they have it all figured out... they simply don't care to truly understand. They're derisive, arrogant and beligerent all wrapped up with bitterness and scorn. They love, absolutely LOVE, mocking GOD and HIS believers. They get a rise out of it, simply to pat themselves on the back and to continue justifying their own disbelief... This is one of those subjects I no longer care to discuss with them (I'd rather chat about the Spurs or Soccer, or the latest movie, technology, etc...)... but just for your sake, don't waste your time either...
    Thanks for the heads up.

    I don't mind though. I like being challenged on the things I believe because then if I'm wrong about something I can change my position rather than continuing to be wrong for the rest of my life. Besides, I kind of like the way these guys think.

    So you have the old covenant for jews. The new covenant for the gentiles, i.e. the jews that accepted Jesus as savior.

    What about the people on the planet that don't fit into those two categories? What covenent do they get?
    A Gentile is just someone who's not a Jew and everyone uses the New Covenant now.

    I dunno what exactly is canon in the various wings of Christianity. Not my cup of tea overall, although I have gained a fair familiarity with various dogmas.
    I would disagree with this simply because so far I've only seen you dispute the things said by the emotional/mainstream branch of Christianity that's popular today. That group just doesn't think and when they do I've found that a lot of them lack the ability to reason. Of course they're going to lack logical consistency more often than not.

    I won't claim to have all the answers or to be perfectly rational when it comes to my beliefs and I definitely won't try to talk you out of your position though. To be honest, I just like conversing with intelligent people.

    Really having fun talking to you RandomGuy

  13. #163
    Believe me. Blake's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up.

    I don't mind though. I like being challenged on the things I believe because then if I'm wrong about something I can change my position rather than continuing to be wrong for the rest of my life. Besides, I kind of like the way these guys think.
    If you can't thoroughly scrutinize and dissect your own belief system, then what's the point of believing it, right?


  14. #164
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    Snails were NOT one of the first forms of life to evolve, and that is NOT what "scientists say". Snails did come along much later, but still before humans, but they are not our direct ancestor anymore than our cousin is our ancestor.
    If your son decides to have sex with a goat and creates a "goat boy" the "goat boy" can be traced to "you" w/o "you" there would be no "goat boy"

    why is this so hard to sink in?

    I honestly think you don't want it to sink in it blows your silly Evolution theory all to shit.

    You just don't get it. Scientist claim "A LIFE" started with a hot soupy pool of liquid.

    That means "Any LIFE" from that point on is connected to that soup!





    I didn't write this shit so go after the text books.
    Last edited by mouse; 04-11-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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  15. #165
    Believe me. Blake's Avatar
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    If your son decides to have sex with a goat and creates a "goat boy" the "goat boy" can be traced to "you" w/o "you" there would be no "goat boy"

    why is this so hard to sink in?

    I honestly think you don't want it to sink in it blows your silly Evolution theory all to shit.

    You just don't get it. Scientist claim "A LIFE" started with a hot soupy pool of liquid.

    That means "Any LIFE" from that point on is connected to that soup!


    I didn't write this shit so go after the text books.
    What's your best guess as to how man came to be?

  16. #166
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If your son decides to have sex with a goat and creates a "goat boy" the "goat boy" can be traced to "you" w/o "you" there would be no "goat boy"

    why is this so hard to sink in?

    I honestly think you don't want it to sink in it blows your silly Evolution theory all to shit.

    You just don't get it. Scientist claim "A LIFE" started with a hot soupy pool of liquid.

    That means "Any LIFE" from that point on is connected to that soup!

    I didn't write this shit so go after the text books.
    There you go. THAT is correctly stated, more or less.

    It doesn't "blow [the] silly evolution theory all to shit" though.

    Why do you think it does?

  17. #167
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    What's your best guess as to how man came to be?
    Like you have the mental capacity to carry an adult conversation?

    I rather not waste my time trying to educate you and the other Igmo's who can't absorb data they have never been exposed to.


    And then to be called Idiot and other names you small brains use when you have no intelligent come backs.

    Maybe if you can find someone like Agloco who claims to be highly educated and seems to know it all then I may return to further open your eyes....oh wait!.......

    NBC news just aired yesterday how dental X-rays are linked to brain tumors. Never mind he is just as hard headed as you and the very limited minds on this website.


    Maybe one day we can do lunch soups on me.


  18. #168
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    There you go. THAT is correctly stated, more or less.

    It doesn't "blow [the] silly evolution theory all to shit" though.

    Why do you think it does?

    OMG now RandomLie wants in on the free seminar.

    If you can't comprehend my last two postings why would a third be any different?

    Ob course you can't have soup w/o water so Scientists add to the fairytale as they in attempt to cover their ass.





    Earth floods for them it's called Science.





    Earth floods for the Bible it's called science fiction?

    One thing I can honestly say is ignorant people do have each others backs.

  19. #169
    Magua hate the grey name Magua's Avatar
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    somebody PLEASE tell me the conspiracy theory schticks are just a trolljob from mouse. I need to hear this.
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  20. #170
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    OMG now RandomLie wants in on the free seminar.

    If you can't comprehend my last two postings why would a third be any different?

    Ob course you can't have soup w/o water so Scientists add to the fairytale as they in attempt to cover their ass.





    Earth floods for them it's called Science.





    Earth floods for the Bible it's called science fiction?

    One thing I can honestly say is ignorant people do have each others backs.
    I...uh...I...He can't be serious.

    Last edited by TheSkeptic; 04-11-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  21. #171
    Believe me. Blake's Avatar
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    Mouse with the sophisticated adult level put downs.

  22. #172
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    If your son decides to have sex with a goat and creates a "goat boy" the "goat boy" can be traced to "you" w/o "you" there would be no "goat boy"

    why is this so hard to sink in?

    I honestly think you don't want it to sink in it blows your silly Evolution theory all to shit.

    You just don't get it. Scientist claim "A LIFE" started with a hot soupy pool of liquid.

    That means "Any LIFE" from that point on is connected to that soup!





    I didn't write this shit so go after the text books.
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  23. #173
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up.

    I don't mind though. I like being challenged on the things I believe because then if I'm wrong about something I can change my position rather than continuing to be wrong for the rest of my life. Besides, I kind of like the way these guys think.

    A Gentile is just someone who's not a Jew and everyone uses the New Covenant now.

    I would disagree with this simply because so far I've only seen you dispute the things said by the emotional/mainstream branch of Christianity that's popular today. That group just doesn't think and when they do I've found that a lot of them lack the ability to reason. Of course they're going to lack logical consistency more often than not.

    I won't claim to have all the answers or to be perfectly rational when it comes to my beliefs and I definitely won't try to talk you out of your position though. To be honest, I just like conversing with intelligent people.

    Really having fun talking to you RandomGuy
    Thanks. I work to be even-handed and respectful, but am far from perfect.

    To be honest, though I do think the bible is pretty much bunk, and far from logical. It is hard to say that without sounding overly confrontational, but that is what I think.

    As long as someone can answer questions honestly and fairly, I can return in kind.

  24. #174
    Magua hate the grey name Magua's Avatar
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    If your son decides to have sex with a goat and creates a "goat boy" the "goat boy" can be traced to "you" w/o "you" there would be no "goat boy"
    .

  25. #175
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    OMG now RandomLie wants in on the free seminar.

    If you can't comprehend my last two postings why would a third be any different?

    Ob course you can't have soup w/o water so Scientists add to the fairytale as they in attempt to cover their ass.

    Earth floods for them it's called Science.

    Earth floods for the Bible it's called science fiction?

    One thing I can honestly say is ignorant people do have each others backs.
    Water has been found to be one of the most common molecules in the universe.

    The forming of the earth entailed a cooling from a large molten blob, and a period of time before there were polar caps.

    Hydrogen and oxygen combined to form water, and when it cooled enough, did condense.

    This period of time had no existing life though.

    The bible's flood is bunk because it would have annihilated most forms of existing life, and certainly any fresh water organisms. (edit) among many many flaws(/edit)

    You can't equate the two, and attempting to is either highly dishonest, or incredibly ignorant, because you can't fairly or logically compare the two.

  26. #176
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    Thanks. I work to be even-handed and respectful, but am far from perfect.
    Have you seen mouse? I'm beginning to think he's trolling and compared to that I feel like this has been a fairly decent discussion.


    To be honest, though I do think the bible is pretty much bunk, and far from logical. It is hard to say that without sounding overly confrontational, but that is what I think.
    I hear you. I think that since it's a religion that is more emotion-based I wouldn't expect it to be perfectly rational since there is that element of faith involved. It all really boils down to whether or not you believe the Christian God exists. If I didn't think so then I'd probably share your opinion on the whole thing.

    As it stands, there's enough logic to not drive me crazy and at the very least I find it consistent. I won't try to talk you out of your opinion anything though.

    It's one of those things where you either really believe it or you really don't.

    As long as someone can answer questions honestly and fairly, I can return in kind.
    That's what message boards are supposed to be for.

  27. #177
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    somebody PLEASE tell me the conspiracy theory schticks are just a trolljob from mouse. I need to hear this.
    Nope. I am fairly sure he half believes all of them.

    If memory serves, life on earth has sentient alien origins or similar, but he doesn't like admitting this, because then he has to defend it. Easier to pick pot shots at established theories than have one of your own.

    His attacks on science stem almost entirely from a shocking degree of ignorance about science, absorbed from other people who are similarly ignorant, with a rather stubborn insistance on not subjecting anything to critical thinking.

  28. #178
    Inexorable RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Have you seen mouse? I'm beginning to think he's trolling and compared to that I feel like this has been a fairly decent discussion.




    I hear you. I think that since it's a religion that is more emotion-based I wouldn't expect it to be perfectly rational since there is that element of faith involved. It all really boils down to whether or not you believe the Christian God exists. If I didn't think so then I'd probably share your opinion on the whole thing.

    As it stands, there's enough logic to not drive me crazy and at the very least I find it consistent. I won't try to talk you out of your opinion anything though.

    It's one of those things where you either really believe it or you really don't.

    That's what message boards are supposed to be for.
    Do you believe in Bigfoot?

    (serious question)

  29. #179
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    Do you believe in Bigfoot?

    (serious question)


    I think it's an interesting story.

    I have a hard time believing that an animal that size would be undiscovered. Granted there are some places in Canada and America that are really remote and unexplored but with the sightings so spread out that would suggest a decent breeding population and a large roaming area.

    If there's that many of them alive and all, there should be some evidence like droppings, hair samples, a dead body someone stumbled upon in the woods -something. Unless people want to start arguing that Bigfoot is supernatural, I just don't really think it exists or if it does it's a case of mistaken identity (i.e. a prank or perhaps a human that's withdrawn from civilization?).

    That said, given the sheer number of sightings dating back a long ways, I won't say it's impossible. Just highly, highly, highly, implausible to the point where I don't object when people say it isn't possible.

    Why?

  30. #180
    Veteran Reck's Avatar
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    San Antonio Spurs
    You know, he was kidding after all Skept.

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