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  1. #201
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    lol subject at hand

    you're an idiot and you know it
    Thanks Blake.

    And for the record mouse, I don't approve of trolling when anyone does it.

  2. #202
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Hey, I never said that believing in God was necessarily logical. As far as atheism/agnosticism goes, I honestly get it. If I wasn't a Christian I'd probably be an atheist.

    On most issues I'm a woman of reason but not so much in this case. I'll admit to that without any prodding.



    While I definitely think it's a bad thing, my opinion on human sacrifice doesn't matter with respect to the topic...



    I believe that's how the story went. I'm assuming that you want a response to what that's supposed to be about right?

    Like I said earlier, I think it's because Jepthah was keeping his promise to God. One of the main commandments is to put God first and ahead of everything and everyone. By following through on his word in spite of what it costed him, Jepthah was following the first commandment as he understood it. Why would God condemn him in that case? On top of which, he didn't explicitly offer a human just the first thing that came out of his house. For all we know, he could've been expecting a dog or a bird to come out first.

    Those are the facts. Now whether or not it was the right thing to do is a topic that's definitely up for debate.

    Again, you're going from the "God is love" paradigm and then bringing morality into it. I'm the wrong person to ask that of because I don't buy into that particular belief system.
    Ok, so you admit human sacrifice is immoral. That is the first step.

    As for keeping promises to God:

    God being omnipotent/omniscient would have known what was going to come out of the house first. God's plan could have been for the family dog to come out first.

    Instead, God's plan was for Jepthah's daughter to come out.

    I am not coming at this from a "God is love" paradigm.

    God is an authority figure. Laws and morality are supposed to flow from what God says/does.

    If you promised the mayor or your town that you would sacrifice your child to him, if he would give you a zoning exemption that lets to build an otherwise illegal addition to your house, what do you think the mayor would do?

  3. #203
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    Ok, so you admit human sacrifice is immoral. That is the first step.

    As for keeping promises to God:

    God being omnipotent/omniscient would have known what was going to come out of the house first. God's plan could have been for the family dog to come out first.

    Instead, God's plan was for Jepthah's daughter to come out.
    He would've known what was going to come out first, but he wouldn't have controlled the daughter. God may be omnipotent but that doesn't mean that's a power he exercises on a regular basis.

    There's an element of free-will that's involved with all of this.

    I am not coming at this from a "God is love" paradigm.

    God is an authority figure. Laws and morality are supposed to flow from what God says/does.
    See, that's just not the way it's worked in my opinion. I'd say that the laws/morality are a byproduct more than anything else and I'd argue that Jepthah was demonstrating the qualities God looks for people to develop in this case.


    If you promised the mayor or your town that you would sacrifice your child to him, if he would give you a zoning exemption that lets to build an otherwise illegal addition to your house, what do you think the mayor would do?
    That's a different situation to me because Jepthah didn't say "...If you give me this victory I'll sacrifice my daughter." what he said was "...I'll give you the first thing that comes out of my house".

    It turned out to be his daughter and rather than going back on the promise he made with God, he ended up sacrificing her. Under the old way of doing things at least, that was probably one of several correct courses of action.

    Do I agree on a personal level? No. But I do understand the rationale and I don't find it inconsistent because the main goal in both this situation and the Isaac one are the same. That's basically what I look for when it comes to these things.

  4. #204
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    God obviously is into the human sacrifice thing since he sent his own son to be sacrificed.

    He also ed around with Abraham telling him to kill Isaac.

    Bible God is a sick bas .

  5. #205
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If you promised the mayor or your town that you would sacrifice your child to him, if he would give you a zoning exemption that lets to build an otherwise illegal addition to your house, what do you think the mayor would do?
    That's a different situation to me because Jepthah didn't say "...If you give me this victory I'll sacrifice my daughter." what he said was "...I'll give you the first thing that comes out of my house".
    That doesn't answer my question.

    If you promised the mayor you would burn your child alive to get what you wanted, what do you think the mayor would do?

    or, if you prefer:

    What woud *you* do if someone wanted something from you, and said they were ready to burn their child alive in order to get it?

  6. #206
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    He would've known what was going to come out first, but he wouldn't have controlled the daughter. God may be omnipotent but that doesn't mean that's a power he exercises on a regular basis.

    There's an element of free-will that's involved with all of this.

    See, that's just not the way it's worked in my opinion. I'd say that the laws/morality are a byproduct more than anything else and I'd argue that Jepthah was demonstrating the qualities God looks for people to develop in this case.
    That's a different situation to me because Jepthah didn't say "...If you give me this victory I'll sacrifice my daughter." what he said was "...I'll give you the first thing that comes out of my house".
    The God of the bible is both all-knowing and all-powerful. God would not have to control anybody. He could have simply told Jepthah that the first thing that would come out of the house would be Jepthah's daughter, and that God would be happy with something a bit less drastic.

    Why do you think God looks for the quality of "I'm willing to murder children" in his followers?

  7. #207
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    NU31:7 "So they made war against Midian, just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male."

    NU31:8 "And they killed the kings of Midian along with the [rest of] their slain: Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword."

    NU31:9 "And the sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods, they plundered."

    NU31:10 Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire.

    NU31:11 "And they took all the spoil and all the prey, both of man and of beast."

    NU31:12 "And they brought the captives and the prey and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest and to the congregation of the sons of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan opposite Jericho."

    NU31:13 And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the congregation went out to meet them outside the camp.

    NU31:14 "And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war."

    NU31:15 "And Moses said to them, ""Have you spared all the women?"

    NU31:16 "Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD."

    NU31:17 "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately."

    NU31:18 "But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

    God directly ordered every male killed. Moses carried that out, and it included every male boy and infant.

    This isn't the kind of stuff that gets talked about in sermons or sunday schools for a reason.

    What reason do you think that is?

    (again, serious question)

  8. #208
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    EX34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

    EX34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

    EX34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

    EX34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

    EX34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

    EX34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

    "God is merciful and gracious".

    God wants you to kill children of people who deny him.

    That seems pretty unambiguously inconsistant.

    Again, not trying to be unkind or overly confrontational, but this stuff is there, if one looks and reads.

    This seems to be to be very, very basic stuff, and I can't wave it off as cherry picking.

    It all makes much more sense if one looks at it from the perpective of kings doing nasty things and using the excuse of "god told me to do it, so don't question it".

    Kings and leaders have been using divine will to get people to do things for millenia, and not just in the middle east. It is a very common theme among all monarchies.

    The Japanese shinto religion still hold that the Emporer of Japan *is* a god.

  9. #209
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Hey, I never said that believing in God was necessarily logical. As far as atheism/agnosticism goes, I honestly get it. If I wasn't a Christian I'd probably be an atheist.

    On most issues I'm a woman of reason but not so much in this case. I'll admit to that without any prodding.
    If you don't want to believe in Bigfoot without some evidence, why would you want to believe in something as important as God without evidence?

    It seems to me to be vastly more important to have a logical reason to believe in God than in something like Bigfoot or the Easter bunny.

  10. #210
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    butthurt?

    since when did you trade in your 1999 Honda Accord for a skateboard?

    I thought of you much older I guess.

    If I am any way near butthurt it's from sitting around for days waiting for you to show me evidence Evolution is why are here.

    It's amusing how posters at ST when confronted with hard facts look for way out by pulling out the "butthurt" card or the "i know what you are but what am I?" card.

    It happens in the Spurs forum. Spurs beat the MAVS? and its an all out war of "count the Rings " but if the Spurs get Waxed by the Lakers it's

    "stop calling us Butthurt it' so immature"

    Why can't anyone here let the evidence speak for itself?

    Becuase you have none so resorting to childish insults is a way to look Un-Butthurt













    Science is the method through which we learn about our universe. Yourhostility to the empirical method has always puzzled me.
    learn all you want, just make sure you "learned" it before you print it as fact in the textbooks. why is that so much to ask?


    So, how would you go about finding the age of the earth?
    I said already in my signature.



    What do you think it is, if not 4.5Bn years?
    How can the earth be older than the oldest comet which is "supposedly" from the big bang? (again address in my link)



    What evidence supports your thesis?
    The Sun loses 5ft of mass ever 30 minutes if you go back "4 Billion" years the sun would be so big it would have burned everything in the solar system



    Why do you discard all the other evidence we have?
    post it first.
    Last edited by mouse; 04-13-2012 at 12:30 AM.

  11. #211
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    mouse thinks that it is a bad thing for science to continually change based on new evidence

  12. #212
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    mouse thinks that it is a bad thing for science to continually change based on new evidence
    Not true.

    I only ask Science "change" the School Science text books at the same time they make change.

    Why is that so hard for your limited mind to comprehend?

  13. #213
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    School books are updated. Do you think there is some evil conspiracy to not update textbooks?

    limited mind

  14. #214
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    Then why do they still say Dental Exams are safe, and the Earth is 4 Billion years old?

    Do you even know the process and time that goes into modifying a text book?

    How about you put down the meth pipe and do some research.

  15. #215
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    mouse thinks that it is a bad thing for science to continually change based on new evidence
    How about you meet me on the radio for a live debate and I will not only change Science I will "change" your crusty diaper.

  16. #216
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    Do you want the publishers to wave a wand and magically update all textbooks as soon as new info comes out?

  17. #217
    Moss is Da Sauce! mouse's Avatar
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    Your like that piece of popcorn that gets stuck in your gums.


    which means you had to have been eaten earlier and really you have no legitimate comebacks to dispute my claims so the stage is yours my Game Stop frequent visiting friend I shall seek IQ's above at least 89 from this point on in further discussion.

  18. #218
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    It all makes much more sense if one looks at it from the perpective of kings doing nasty things and using the excuse of "god told me to do it, so don't question it".

    Kings and leaders have been using divine will to get people to do things for millenia, and not just in the middle east. It is a very common theme among all monarchies.

    The Japanese shinto religion still hold that the Emporer of Japan *is* a god
    .

    That's exactly how I see it though (albeit on a grander scale). Especially in the Old Testament when God was essentially their king since he was the one coming up with the laws and telling them what to do. Now that it's the New Testament days, the same concepts are at work but on a spiritual level.

    Hence why I look more for things like consistency in terms of personality and goals rather than actions and the like.

    Though if that's all I needed to say I would have done that sooner.

    If you don't want to believe in Bigfoot without some evidence, why would you want to believe in something as important as God without evidence?

    It seems to me to be vastly more important to have a logical reason to believe in God than in something like Bigfoot or the Easter bunny.
    Well because I have seen evidence of God in my own life and in the lives of others. On a philosophical level it makes a lot of sense to me as well so there's that. Probably the biggest thing is harder to explain since you likely haven't experienced this but I'll try:

    I know it might sound really strange but I feel like there's something pulling me that first helped me look at Christianity and that even now doesn't let me let go of God.

    I've tried to think and be like everybody else and I just haven't been able to. I get unsettled and I lack peace whenever I go too far away from where I'm supposed to be and whenever that happens it always feels like someone's calling me back even if I'm not hearing voices or anything. So a lot of it is about maintaining my own internal balance...or something to that effect.

    For all my talk of being a rational person it would probably make more sense if I said that I'm looking to save my soul and avoid , but that's not really why I became a Christian. Something just compelled me to. I'll be the first to admit that it's really weird because I don't operate like that normally (I promise).

    I don't know that it's less important than Bigfoot and the Easter Bunny. and eternal destiny are pretty serious topics in my opinion.

    And in any case, I don't lose anything for being a Christian and believing in God. I'm 20 so it goes without saying that I'm a work in progress as a person but it's helped me become someone who tries to do the right thing in general.

    I try to practice maturity, help people whenever I can, be gentle when I'm dealing with others, weather things gracefully, try to be consistent in my beliefs, etc. These are qualities that will help me in life no matter where I go. Just because I view the world through Christ that doesn't mean I'm suffering from a lower standard of living.

    I've said before that Christianity is pretty destructive for certain types of people and I would contend that the militantly religious/gullible are the ones that have a tough row to hoe. Though you might disagree (and that'd be fair enough) I'd say that I'm a fairly intelligent woman and that by interacting more with non-believers I've learned how to live in the real world without using my faith as a crutch or as a weapon against other people even if that's put me at odds with other Christians before. I don't see how that's bad for me.

    Long again...I've got to stop typing when I'm tired...

  19. #219
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    So much for wanting serious conversations!

    first to about immaturity
    first to call people names

    Mouse just doing what mouse does best. No surprises here.

  20. #220
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    mouse, what is your theory on how humans came into existence?

  21. #221
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    Do you want the publishers to wave a wand and magically update all textbooks as soon as new info comes out?
    They will be able to do exactly that with digital textbooks.

  22. #222
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The Sun loses 5ft of mass ever 30 minutes if you go back "4 Billion" years the sun would be so big it would have burned everything in the solar system
    What evidence do you have that this rate has held constant for that period of time?

  23. #223
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    How can the earth be older than the oldest comet which is "supposedly" from the big bang? (again address in my link)
    Comets weren't formed in the Big Bang.

    I don't think you understand what scientists generally agree on about the formation of our solar system.

    The address in your link is not something I am going to spend time listening to, as I am fairly sure I already have. How exactly do you feel it supports your mistaken statement here?

  24. #224
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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  25. #225
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Becuase you have none so resorting to childish insults is a way to look Un-Butthurt .
    RandomLie your the king of Propaganda ...

    ...
    insults that have as much effect on me as RedZero's re-fried pick up lines at a Lesbian wedding...

    I am done trying to dumb it down for you
    If your son decides to have sex with a goat
    I keep bringing it out becase it hasn't sunk in yet in your very limited mind ... Now put down the bing for 90 seconds


    ... your very annoing ignorant stepson redzero.

    Why do you feel the need to resort to the same kinds of insults?

    My posting of the butthurt picture was quite after you posted these, and was the only time I commented at all about you, other than to politely ask questions, or correct factual mistakes, of which you have made several.

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