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  1. #91
    not safe for work Blake's Avatar
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    The government has claimed that there is no visible plane because it simply disappeared into the ground, which was soft from mining in the area, Chumpy. Some have suggested that it disappeared into an abandoned mining shaft. It is not a stretch. There is no way to believe that a Boeing 757 crashed here. How else could a plane COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR and leave no signs at all? And Pilots has shown that it was over Urbana, IL, at the time it allegedly crashed. You just dismiss or ignore the evidence that shows you are wrong.

    I don't want to suggest that you are gullible, but for someone to swallow the "official account" of 9/11 when all of the evidence contradicts it takes a weak mind, not a strong one. You seem too smart to be so easily taken in. It's not being "thin skinned" but having no patience for absurdities. I have often noted that the "official account" is just fine as long as you are willing to believe impossible things. Why are you not seeing through the fantasies we have been told re 9/11? Here's a sampler of the problems with the OCT:

    1. The impact of planes cannot have caused enough damage to bring the buildings down, since the buildings were designed to withstand them (as Frank DeMartini, the project manager, has observed), the planes alleged to have hit were similar to those they were designed to withstand, and the buildings continued to stand after those impacts with negligible effects.

    2. Most of the jet fuel, principally kerosene, burned up in those fireballs in the first fifteen seconds or so. Below the 96th floor in the North Tower and the 80th in the South, those buildings were stone cold steel (unaffected by any fires at all other than some very modest office fires that burned around 500 degrees F), which functioned as a massive heat sink dissipating the heat from building up on the steel.

    3. The melting point of steel at 2,800 degrees F is about 1,000 degrees higher than the maximum burning temperature of jet-fuel-based fires, which do not exceed 1,800 degrees F under optimal conditions; but the NIST examined 236 samples of steel and found that 233 had not been exposed to temperatures above 500 degrees F and the others not above 
1200.

    4. Underwriters Laboratory certified the steel in the buildings up to 2,000 degrees F for three or four hours without any significant effects, where these fires burned neither long enough or hot enough at an average temperature of about 500 degrees for about one hour in the South Tower and one and a half in the North Tower to weaken, much less melt.

    5. If the steel had melted or weakened, then the affected floors would have displayed completely different behavior, with some degree of asymmetrical sagging and tilting, which would have been gradual and slow, not the complete, abrupt and total demolition that was observed. Which means the NIST cannot even explain the initiation of any 
”collapse” sequence.

    6. The top 30 floors of the South Tower pivoted and fell to the side, turning to dust before it reached the horizontal. So it did not even exist to exert any downward pressure on the lower 80 floors. A high-school physics teacher, Charles Boldwyn, moreover, has calculated that, if you take the top 16 floors of the North Tower as one unit of downward force, there were 199 units of upward force to counteract it.

    7. William Rodriguez, who was the senior custodian in the North Tower and the last man to leave the building, has reported massive explosions in the sub-basements that effected extensive destruction, including the demolition of a fifty-ton hydraulic press and the 
ripping of the skin off a fellow worker, where they filled with water that drained the sprinkler system.

    8. Rodriguez observed that the explosion occurred prior to reverberations from upper floors, a claim that has now been substantiated in a new study by Craig Furlong and Gordon Ross, ”Seismic Proof: 9/11 Was an Inside Job,” demonstrating that these 
explosions actually took place as much as 14 and 17 seconds before the presumptive airplane impacts.

    9. Heavy-steel-construction buildings like the Twin Towers are not generally capable of “pancake collapse,” which normally occurs only with concrete structures of “lift slab construction” and could not occur in redundant welded-steel buildings, such as the towers, unless every supporting column were removed at the same time, floor by floor, as Charles Pegelow, a structural engineer, has observed.

    10. The demolition of the two towers in about 10 seconds apiece is very close to the speed of free fall with only air resistance, which Judy Wood, Ph.D., formerly a professor of mechanical engineering, has observed is an astounding result that would be impossible with extremely powerful sources of energy. If they were collapsing, they would have had to fall through their points of greatest resistance.

    11. Indeed, the towers are exploding from the top, not collapsing to the ground, where their floors do not move, a phenomenon Wood has likened to two gigantic trees turning to sawdust from the top down, which, like the pulverization of the buildings, the government’s account cannot possibly explain. There were no “pancakes”.

    12. WTC-7 came down in a classic controlled demolition at 5:20 PM after Larry Silverstein suggested the best thing to do might be to “pull it”, displaying all the characteristics of classic controlled demolitions: a complete, abrupt and total collapse into its own footprint, where the floors are all falling at the same time, yielding a stack of pancakes about 5 floors high.

    13. Had the Twin Towers collapsed like WTC-7, there would have been two stacks of “pancakes” equal to about 12% the height of the buildings or around 15 floors high. But they were actually reduced to below ground level. Since there were no “pancakes”, there cannot have been any “pancake collapse” of either building, where the buildings were destroyed by different modes of demolition.

    14. The hit point at the Pentagon was too small to accommodate a 100-ton airliner with a 125-foot wingspan and a tail that stands 44-feet above the ground; the debris was wrong for a Boeing 757: no wings, no fuselage, no seats, no bodies, no luggage, no tail! Not even the engines were recovered, which means that the official account is not true.

    15. The Pentagon’s own videotapes do not show a Boeing 757 hitting the building, as even Bill O’Reilly admitted when one was shown on ”The O’Reilly Factor”; at 155 feet, the plane was more than twice as long as the 77-foot Pentagon is high and should have been present and easily visible; it was not, which means that the video evidence also contradicts the official account.

    16. The aerodynamics of flight would have made the official trajectory “flying at high speed barely above ground level” physically impossible, because a Boeing 757 flying over 500 mph could not have come closer than about 60 feet of the ground, which means that the official account is not even aerodynamically possible, as Nila Sagadevan, an aeronautical engineer, explained to me.

    17. Data from a flight recorder provided to Pilots for 9/11 Truth by the National Transportation Safety Board corresponds to a plane with a different approach and altitude, which would have precluded its hitting lampposts or even the building itself, which means that, if this data corresponds to a Boeing 757, it would have flown over the Pentagon rather than hit it.

    18. If Flight 93 crashed into an abandoned mine shaft, as the government maintains, then they should have brought out the heavy equipment and the bright lights and dug and dug, 24/7, in the hope that, by some miracle, someone might possibly have survived. But nothing like that was done. Even the singed trees and shrubs were trimmed, apparently to make it impossible to subject them to chemical analysis.

    19. There is more, especially about the alleged hijackers, including that they were not competent to fly these planes and their names are not on any original, authenticated passenger manifest. Several have turned up alive and well and living in the Middle East. The government has not even produced their tickets as evidence that they were even aboard the aircraft they are alleged to have hijacked.

    20. President Bush recently acknowledged that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. The Senate Intelligence Committee has reported that Saddam was not in cahoots with Al Qaeda. And the FBI has acknowledged that it has “no hard evidence” to tie Osama to 9/11. If Saddam did not do it and Osama did not do it, then who is responsible for the death of 3,000 citizens that day?

    We believe that it is the highest form of respect to those who died on 9/11 and their survivors to establish how and why they died, which our own government manifestly has not done. With the American media under the thumb of a corrupt administration, we cannot count on the press to perform its investigative function. But we can do our best to expose falsehoods and reveal truths about 9/11.

    For more, see http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/09...-911-is-wrong/
    I was really hoping to hear a theory about who masterminded it all and a detailed story about how they pulled it off.

    Very disappointing.

  2. #92
    Believe.
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    Nice example of the little (really, small, even tiny) games that are being played here. Blake could also care less. I have already offered a (partial and incomplete) "narrative" about the players and the motives that drove them in "9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda" (above). It can be arduous to conduct real research, but Chumpy, Blake, and others of their ilk are not about to expend themselves in reading any studies or evaluating any evidence when they can sit back and mock those of us who care about 9/11 and the future of our country.

    Notice how effortlessly he can dismiss proof that we have been sold a mess of pottage about 9/11 by our government. Does he expect to have notes from secret meetings where Cheney and Gen. Myers went into how the Air Force would be stood down on 9/11 so they could not attempt intercepts of planes that either were not even in the air or were at locations far removed from where they were alleged to have crashed or hit the Twin Towers? Given what I have experienced since I arrived, I am no longer surprised.

    Maybe you don't even recall, if you ever knew, that one of the first actions that Cheney took after he arrived in office was to arrange a meeting about "energy policy", where he brought together heavy hitters from the gas and oil industry, apparently to map out how they were going to divide Iraqi oil. He would not even allow the public to know the names of those who attended. So is that something else that I should include in my "narrative"? Lies can be short and simple. The truth, as in this case, can be elaborate and complex.

    So not only have I outlined the narrative that represents elements of the history of the planning to bring about 9/11 in order to instill fear into the American people with a "new Pearl Harbor" and manipulate us to promote a political agenda, but I have already observed that the tactic you and Chumpy seem to prefer is to insist that, unless we know everything about 9/11, we don't know anything. But neither or your buddies here even seem to care. For example, I have yet to see an acknowledgment of any of the points I've made--not one!

    I was really hoping to hear a theory about who masterminded it all and a detailed story about how they pulled it off.

    Very disappointing.
    Last edited by Jim Fetzer; 05-09-2012 at 09:00 AM.

  3. #93
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Fetzer being a Lakers fan denies all credibility, TBH.


    Fetzer's using ST to advertise his works. Shame on you, Fetzer .

    True academics do so though. "Here are all my references to others' works in my research study. Here is my credibility. Here is my hypothesis. To see my research methods and conclusion, please buy my book!"
    Fetzer is a big fan of Tim Duncan.

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  4. #94
    not safe for work Blake's Avatar
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    Nice example of the little (really, small, even tiny) games that are being played here. Blake could also care less.
    How much less could I care?


    instead of proof of Cheney having secret military meetings, how about something simpler........like connecting the dots between Cheney and Silverstein.

    Proof of such meetings between these two would be an added bonus. Thanks.

  5. #95
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I sometimes drop in on these threads out of pure, morbid curiosity (or boredom). I wonder -- why do Chump and RandomGuy engage these fucktards?

    Meh, to each their own, I guess.


    Carry on.

  6. #96

  7. #97
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Fetzer's case for the "inside job" narrative relies more on merely plausible inferences from the "data set" than anything approaching "evidence". There is a vast rag bag of such inferences in the "self linked" Fetzer material....


    (Also, his claim that anyone who lacks his investigatory passion or fails to share his confidence in its results "does not care about 9/11," amuses and delights.)

  8. #98
    not safe for work Blake's Avatar
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    Fetzer's case for the "inside job" narrative relies more on merely plausible inferences from the "data set" than anything approaching "evidence". There is a vast rag bag of such inferences in the "self linked" Fetzer material....


    (Also, his claim that anyone who lacks his investigatory passion or fails to share his confidence in its results "does not care about 9/11," amuses and delights.)
    Par for the twoofer course

  9. #99
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    This is why the political forum exists!
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  10. #100
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    The government has claimed that there is no visible plane because it simply disappeared into the ground, which was soft from mining in the area, Chumpy. Some have suggested that it disappeared into an abandoned mining shaft.
    Who has claimed it was a mine shaft, "Jim"?

    Who?

    And why would a scholar interested in truth let that misconception stand, much less base his argument about a rescue operation on it?

    Tell us all you know it is not a shaft mine, that it is a reclaimed strip mine. That will help prove to me you are interested in the actual truth.

    You will not get away with avoiding this.
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  11. #101
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I have already offered a (partial and incomplete) "narrative" about the players and the motives that drove them in "9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda" (above).
    Exactly.

    It's partial and incomplete.

    After a full decade of "research" into mine shaft rescue operations and the like, no one in the truth movement has anything close to a complete theory -- just a bunch of stupid innuendo and disjointed rambles about suspects and methods that make absolutely no sense when taken as a whole. It's definitely one of the reasons people don't take the truth movement seriously. The truthers' collective meltdown here when asked by me to tell us all what they think really happened on 9/11 proves they aren't serious about this at all. I know Jim Fetzer has a financial stake in sticking to his partial and incomplete theory that amounts to nothing; I have no idea why the others insist on looking like idiots in these threads.

  12. #102
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Not the real Jim Fetzer
    I'm a bit skeptical, but inclined to believe him. Why wouldn't it be?

  13. #103
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I sometimes drop in on these threads out of pure, morbid curiosity (or boredom). I wonder -- why do Chump and RandomGuy engage these fucktards?

    Meh, to each their own, I guess.


    Carry on.
    Same reason why people engage fucktards such as yourself. He too takes potshots and makes comments that make no sense on closer inspection. He also seems to not read through things before posting them like you as well.
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  14. #104
    not safe for work Blake's Avatar
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    Maybe you don't even recall, if you ever knew, that one of the first actions that Cheney took after he arrived in office was to arrange a meeting about "energy policy", where he brought together heavy hitters from the gas and oil industry, apparently to map out how they were going to divide Iraqi oil. He would not even allow the public to know the names of those who attended. So is that something else that I should include in my "narrative"? Lies can be short and simple. The truth, as in this case, can be elaborate and complex.

    So yet to see an acknowledgment of any of the points I've made--not one!
    I'll admit, I never knew of such a meeting.

    Let me ask you though.....if the public doesn't know the names, how do you know they were heavyhitters?

  15. #105
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    i don't think anybody is arguing that the need for war in iraq was fabricated.

    or wasn't fabricated.

    ok, wait, we know they bullshitted us on that.

    knew that from the beginning.
    Last edited by clambake; 05-09-2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: clarification

  16. #106
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Not the real Jim Fetzer but...

    The Shanksville eyewitness


    the best part is that Chumpy won't watch this either...

    Watched it.

    Now you watch these.





    I'm more inclined to believe the contemporary accounts than one years later from a person inside a car who could only have seen anything for a very short period of time given her position and influenced by truthers feeding her information to fit their agenda. She also has no memory of an explosion until much later. I believe she is simply mistaken.

    Now that you have watched the videos I posted, do you believe the eyewitnesses in them? If not, why not?
    Last edited by ChumpDumper; 05-09-2012 at 07:26 PM.

  17. #107
    not safe for work Blake's Avatar
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    i don't think anybody is arguing that the need for war in iraq was fabricated.

    or wasn't fabricated.

    ok, wait, we know they bullshitted us on that.

    knew that from the beginning.
    So did the heavy hitters get the oil they wanted?

  18. #108
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Maybe you don't even recall, if you ever knew, that one of the first actions that Cheney took after he arrived in office was to arrange a meeting about "energy policy", where he brought together heavy hitters from the gas and oil industry, apparently to map out how they were going to divide Iraqi oil. He would not even allow the public to know the names of those who attended. So is that something else that I should include in my "narrative"?
    If that is part of the story you actually believe, by all means include it. Why is this so difficult for you?


    I have yet to see an acknowledgment of any of the points I've made--not one!
    Yeah, Jim -- you're not going to get it until you put together a cohesive narrative that explains what you think happened on 9/11. Your shotgun approach is self-contradicting and self-defeating.

    In other words -- pick a lane.

  19. #109
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    So did the heavy hitters get the oil they wanted?
    probably.

    through back channels.

  20. #110
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yes, the crater that officials claim was made by the crash of United 93 was already there before the crash according to a geological survey...
    Wow,dan.

    You have no sense of scale or position.

    That "crater" your crappy YouTube points out is nowhere close in size or position to the actual crash site. I need to remind you idiots that this was a strip mine and it hadn't been fully filled back in by 1994, when the aerial photo was taken.

    Enormous pics dan won't look at anyway:

    http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...pacrater3.html

    http://imageshack.us/m/217/9549/9112...fbiphotola.png

    And seriously, dan and Jim -- why would anyone go through the trouble of hijacking a plane with 40 people on board, NOT crash it, go to the site where you acted like it crashed, then spread out debris from that plane (that they had to hide and take apart and damage the parts) and the 40 people on it (including their presumably ground up body parts) in an area up to eight miles from the site -- just to let another government agency take photos of it and still others pick it up and collect it?

    EPA photo gallery of debris all over the got damn place:

    http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...padebris5.html

    Explain to all of us how that is easier and more believable then just crashing the plane that they already had.

  21. #111
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    How much less could I care?


    instead of proof of Cheney having secret military meetings, how about something simpler........like connecting the dots between Cheney and Silverstein.

    Proof of such meetings between these two would be an added bonus. Thanks.
    what an asshat....blake is just here to suck Chumpy's boy-dick Jim...your right.

  22. #112
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I sometimes drop in on these threads out of pure, morbid curiosity (or boredom). I wonder -- why do Chump and RandomGuy engage these fucktards?

    Meh, to each their own, I guess.


    Carry on.
    ....and you always contribute so much....what a shame...

  23. #113
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    what an asshat....blake is just here to suck Chumpy's boy-dick Jim...your right.
    Wait, now you think he is Jim Fetzer?

  24. #114
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I'm a bit skeptical, but inclined to believe him. Why wouldn't it be?
    I wrote Jim Fetzer.

  25. #115
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Wait, now you think he is Jim Fetzer?
    No.

  26. #116
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I wrote Jim Fetzer.
    What email address did you use?

  27. #117
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    What email address did you use?
    the ones in his articles..you can too...

  28. #118
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    the ones in his articles..you can too...
    So what is the actual address you used, dan?

    Just post it.

    Don't be afraid.

  29. #119
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    No, I like Jim...look it up..it's not too hard...

  30. #120
    this is not a sig ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    No, I like Jim...look it up..it's not too hard...
    So if I emailed him at the address I found in the article, you're saying he would tell me that it's not him, right?

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