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  1. #726
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    However abstract the Robin Hood myth has become in political terms, to retell it is to embed the central plan of taking from the rich to give to the poor in the specifics of the era when it first emerged, somewhere between the First Crusade and the Black Death, that is, somewhere between the beginning of the 11th century and the middle of the 14th. In the context of high medieval England, the modern right-wing notion of taxation as an oppressive burden on the great mass of people makes sense. The majority of the population were peasants working the land. They were obliged to pay three kinds of tax: one, indirectly, through customs duties and debasement of the coinage, to the king, to finance his wars; another to the church; and a third, the largest, to their feudal landlord. Most peasants were enserfed – that is, bound to the lord in the place where they were born – and paid taxes in kind, in the form of compulsory labour in the lord’s fields, with the family having to surrender their best beast to their lord when the head of the household died. At the same time they were subject to an intense system of local monopolies under the lord’s control – obliged to pay to use the lord’s mill to grind their corn, for instance, or the lord’s ovens to bake their bread – and to a complex web of prohibitions, fees and fines for everything from having a child out of wedlock to killing the lord’s doves. This flow of money, labour and goods from the slave poor to the landholding rich brought nothing to the poor in return except a vague, often broken promise of protection from external violence and the intangible pledge of relief in heaven. The rich were not hardworking; they would have been insulted to be described as such. They con uously spent the taxes they received on themselves: on luxuries, on display, on the aristocratic pastimes of war, poetry, fashion, music, dancing, hunting, romance and fornication. The medieval Robin Hood, then, was not taking from the rich to give to the poor so much as taking back from the rich to return to the poor, who would be doing all right if the rich hadn’t been so greedy.


    It’s this medieval notion of taxation as robbery from a hardworking peasantry to fund the lifestyle of idle hedonists that maps directly onto the version of the Robin Hood myth that conservative and right-wing populist parties want to promote. This is what Osborne is getting at when he tweets with the hashtag #hardworkingpeople and says: ‘Where is the fairness, we ask, for the shift-worker, leaving home in the dark hours of the early morning, who looks up at the closed blinds of their next-door neighbour sleeping off a life on benefits?’ When he does this he’s positioning himself as Robin Hood; the welfare state and the unemployed as the rapacious Anglo-Norman aristocracy of 13th-century England; and all those who think they pay more in taxes than they get back, be they shift workers or billionaires, as the peasants who feed them. In Pity the Billionaire: The Unlikely Comeback of the American Right, Thomas Frank describes a similar process in America: ‘The conservative renaissance rewrites history according to the political demands of the moment, generates thick smokescreens of deliberate bewilderment, grabs for itself the nobility of the common toiler, and projects onto its rivals the arrogance of the aristocrat.’
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n04/james-m...e-of-austerity

  2. #727
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    There is a cynical view which says that as long as the majority of the population feel they’re doing all right, a democratically elected government is safe to squeeze the poor and pamper the rich. But cynicism is a risky thing to rely on when a government is simultaneously cutting spending and shedding control of the universal networks on which its entire population relies. As Hobsbawm writes in Bandits, ‘concentration of power in the modern territorial state is what eventually eliminated rural banditry, endemic or epidemic. At the end of the 20th century it looks as though this situation might be coming to an end, and the consequences of this regression of state power cannot yet be foreseen.’ We’re a long way from the return of the literal outlaw to Nottinghamshire. But we need to remember the insight given our ancestors when they saw through the illusion of the Robin Hood myth, when they saw that the strongbox of silver coins wasn’t just money stolen from each of them individually, but power robbed from them collectively, and that they needed to wield that power collectively as much as they needed their money back. For sure, freedom to choose is a grand thing, and the market will try to help you exercise it. With a bit of money in the bank, a middle-class family might choose to send their child to private school, provided by the market; but that same family can’t choose to build and maintain a universal education network by itself, and the market won’t provide it. With money, you can choose to buy a car, and the market will provide it; but you can’t choose, all by yourself, to build and maintain a universal road network, and the market won’t provide it. To make and keep universal networks requires the authority of the state, an authority that has been absent; and it’s hard to see where that authority might come from if the people don’t find a way to assert their kingship.
    same

  3. #728
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I haven't finalized my 2015 taxes yet but it looks like I will end up paying around $160,000 in federal taxes personally. This doesn't count corporate tax I will pay. I sure as don't consider myself rich. How much more do you want to increase it RG? How is it that you think I should "owe more" just because I finally benefit from working hard and making good life and business decisions?
    A bit on how poverty affects decisions:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...isions/281780/

    A bit on the theory of progressive income taxes:

    http://economics.mit.edu/files/6820

    Both are good, if you have the time.

    Taxing $1000 away from you does not take away your ability to pay the electric bill, and what we understand about human decision making leads me to be much less judgmental about poor people than vy65 and his immoral ilk.

  4. #729
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I don't necessarily disagree with this. But I have to wonder just how much we would actually gain by doing this. What are we going to do tax at 100%? Because if we did that, I'm still unsure that it would actually solve our problem.
    Estate taxes, that force rich kids to actually fend for themselves, and keep us from having a permanent aristocracy.

    Paris Hilton is what I think of when people say "sense of en lement"

  5. #730
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    Estate taxes, that force rich kids to actually fend for themselves, and keep us from having a permanent aristocracy.

    Paris Hilton is what I think of when people say "sense of en lement"
    How about US mega/international corps with $Ts parked offshore thinking they are EN LED to a tax holiday, pay 5% on the repatriated profits?

    How about the super-wealthy who think that are EN LED to a different and rigged tax system from the non-wealhy?

    TB's "100% tax" is his typically inane bull , a strawman. USA has never taxed at 100% and nobody is proposing that.

  6. #731
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    A bit on how poverty affects decisions:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...isions/281780/

    A bit on the theory of progressive income taxes:

    http://economics.mit.edu/files/6820

    Both are good, if you have the time.

    Taxing $1000 away from you does not take away your ability to pay the electric bill, and what we understand about human decision making leads me to be much less judgmental about poor people than vy65 and his immoral ilk.
    most people in poverty are their by their own actions. Some just have bad luck. I refuse to have assholes like you make me feel guilty. I make nowhere near CC, but I feel my $20+k annual is more than my fair share.

  7. #732
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Estate taxes, that force rich kids to actually fend for themselves, and keep us from having a permanent aristocracy.

    Paris Hilton is what I think of when people say "sense of en lement"
    Estate taxes also sometimes disassemble small businesses and put people out of work.

  8. #733
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Taxing $1000 away from you does not take away your ability to pay the electric bill, and what we understand about human decision making leads me to be much less judgmental about poor people than vy65 and his immoral ilk.
    If you keep taking away what you don't think people better off need...

    My God. You are a ing asshole!

    If you wish yo donate more of your hard earned money, do so. Put your money where your mouth is. Just don't expect others to have to do it.

    Where idiots like you really piss me off royally, is that I give to charities of my choice. the more you demand of me to give elsewhere, the less I can give to en ies I think need it.

    Go yourself!

  9. #734
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    most people in poverty are their by their own actions.
    Link?

    How do you know this?

  10. #735
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Estate taxes also sometimes disassemble small businesses and put people out of work.
    Prove it.

    Then....

    Once you have shown this is the case, you should be able to see how often this is the case.

    Then we would need to consider if the costs of an occasional marginal business going under outweigh the costs of having vast amounts of wealth locked up by unproductive idle rich.

  11. #736
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If you keep taking away what you don't think people better off need...

    My God. You are a ing asshole!

    If you wish yo donate more of your hard earned money, do so. Put your money where your mouth is. Just don't expect others to have to do it.

    Where idiots like you really piss me off royally, is that I give to charities of my choice. the more you demand of me to give elsewhere, the less I can give to en ies I think need it.

    Go yourself!
    ity to you too.

    Now that we have that out of our system, maybe we can discuss tax policy a bit more rationally.

    We can start by you not telling me what I think. Let me do that, I will be happy to let you know.

    It also might help if we got to some common understanding of tax issues, and how taxation should work.

    If someone earns $15,000 per year, and $1,000 is taken away is it the same as taking $1,000 from someone earning $300,000 per year?

    Why or why not?

  12. #737
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Link?

    How do you know this?
    Are you blind?

    How many people have children before they can afford to have them?

  13. #738
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Prove it.

    Then....

    Once you have shown this is the case, you should be able to see how often this is the case.

    Then we would need to consider if the costs of an occasional marginal business going under outweigh the costs of having vast amounts of wealth locked up by unproductive idle rich.
    I said sometimes.

    Are you suggesting that can never happen?

  14. #739
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    If someone earns $15,000 per year, and $1,000 is taken away is it the same as taking $1,000 from someone earning $300,000 per year?

    Why or why not?
    It's not the same percentage wise.

    Do you have any actual examples where the super rich pay less of a percentage in income taxes than the poor?

    FICA is capped, and the rich can draw no more than the middle class worker when retiring. When we look at just what we file with the federal form 1040 and others, and state taxes too, I think you would be hard pressed to find a rich person that pays less of a percentage.

    Capital gains are a different beast. There are some changes needed in the tax code there, but they are designed as a lower rate because if you raise them too high, people will stop investing capital.

    I have for unforgotten years now, advocated moving away from a income tax system to a consumption tax system. This way, people are taxed on what they spend. Not what the make. You just tax different products at a different rate. Essentials like food, toothpaste, toilet paper, etc. would have no tax. The poor would only be taxed on what wasn't considered a necessity. I also have advocated a one-time mandatory pay increase to all wage earners that shift the employer cost of FICA 100% to the worker. Enough more is given to the worker to pay both sides of FICA expenses. We now call, it a social tax instead of FICA, and have no cap on it. We then index this tax rate to what congress spends on en lements and other social programs, so the voters are more accountable for who they put in congress.

    I know you will disagree with this, find ways to shoot it down, but guess what. No system is perfect. There are several gains from such a system. We can eliminate the future need of the IRS and many CPA jobs, because taxation would become much simpler. It would help return manufacturing jobs to the USA because we would be more in tune to competing taxation of import/exports. Currently, we tax corporations huge amounts to produce products to sell overseas, which then get taxed again by their consumption taxes. we buy goods artificially chea[per compared to our own goods because most ciountries don't tax their imports, then we only tax the retail profits. It is one of the reasons for our trade imbalance.

  15. #740
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    "Do you have any actual examples where the super rich pay less of a percentage in income taxes than the poor?"

    yep, there was a study in Texas that showed total taxes, all types, paid by the TX bottom was a higher percentage than that paid by the TX wealthy.

    And I am pretty sure Bishop Gekko added up ALL TYPES of his taxes to claim in 2012 that he paid 14%.


    Last edited by boutons_deux; 03-24-2016 at 11:39 AM.

  16. #741
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Obviously the reasonable solution is forced sterilization.

    Haha, just kidding, only a sociopathic nutcase would think that was a justifiable idea.

  17. #742
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Obviously the reasonable solution is forced sterilization.

    Haha, just kidding, only a sociopathic nutcase would think that was a justifiable idea.
    no, he said people that can't afford kids shouldn't be allowed to have any.


    him being the lone exception.

  18. #743
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    "Do you have any actual examples where the super rich pay less of a percentage in income taxes than the poor?"

    yep, there was a study in Texas that showed total taxes, all types, paid by the TX bottom was a higher percentage than that paid by the TX wealthy.

    And I am pretty sure Bishop Gekko added up ALL TYPES of his taxes to claim in 2012 that he paid 14%.


    Those taxes included SS, which is capped.

    I'm speaking of only what is filed on a tax return.

  19. #744
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    no, he said people that can't afford kids shouldn't be allowed to have any.


    him being the lone exception.
    Well, I don't think people who think like you should have kids, but that's a different argument, and I would never advocate enforcing that. It's just a rather strong moral opinion of mine.

  20. #745
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    Those taxes included SS, which is capped.

    I'm speaking of only what is filed on a tax return.
    of course you are. that's how you invalidate you tax policies.

    and the wealthy have a different tax system than the bottom 2 deciles.

  21. #746
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    if you're exempt from that "moral opinion", where is the morality in that?

  22. #747
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    no, he said people that can't afford kids shouldn't be allowed to have any.


    him being the lone exception.

    He has also said:

    If people are irresponsible enough to have kids they can't afford, they should have their tubes tied in exchange for subsidies so they can't burden society with more subsidies in the future.
    Simple solution.

    Someone needs government assistance to raise kids they couldn't afford to have when they coceived, make them get their tubes tied for the privilege of assistance That way, we don't have repeat offenders of this crime on society. Both the man and woman.
    they are so irresponsible as to have children they can not provide for, society should have the right to make sure they are not a repeat offender.

  23. #748
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    How about US mega/international corps with $Ts parked offshore thinking they are EN LED to a tax holiday, pay 5% on the repatriated profits?

    How about the super-wealthy who think that are EN LED to a different and rigged tax system from the non-wealhy?

    TB's "100% tax" is his typically inane bull , a strawman. USA has never taxed at 100% and nobody is proposing that.
    I didn't propose that, simpleton. It was an illustrative question...not that you can be bothered to think.

  24. #749
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Estate taxes, that force rich kids to actually fend for themselves, and keep us from having a permanent aristocracy.

    Paris Hilton is what I think of when people say "sense of en lement"
    That should have an impact of about .005%.

  25. #750
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    most people in poverty are their by their own actions.
    Link?

    How do you know this?


    Are you blind?

    How many people have children before they can afford to have them?
    Again, not really an answer.

    I asked "how" do you know this.

    Are you unaware of what caused you to believe this is true?

    How do you know most people who are in poverty are there because of their own actions?

    Define "most".
    Define "poverty".

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