lol Uruguay

[Venti Quattro]

son in 2010 they did make the semis, when was the last time england got that far? Not to mention urgay has like 3 million people.

det dfense tho, too old tbh.

England won the cup in '66 breh. That was a long time ago too, but not Uruguay-long time ago.

[dfens]

England won the cup in '66 breh. That was a long time ago too, but not Uruguay-long time ago.

as a fellow laker fan I hoped you'd bring the ring argument but getting to the semis or winning a continental le ARE accomplishments. WC semis in 2010 (they gave netherlands a run for their money too) and SA cup in 2011 mean recent success for any team.
England's last WC semi was in 1990 and their last EC is never. Sure a couple of quater finals in between but they got bounced by the first decent team. I won't even talk about the fact that in this period one side played football in the other kicked the ball upfront with no tactics whatsoever.

So both from a historic(rings/ les) and a relevancy (recency) standpoint it is obvious that uruguay is superior to england. Given the national obsession in england and the fact the 80 million people >>>>>>> 3 million ..... you can conclude this one yourself.

[Venti Quattro]

as a fellow laker fan I hoped you'd bring the ring argument but getting to the semis or winning a continental le ARE accomplishments. WC semis in 2010 (they gave netherlands a run for their money too) and SA cup in 2011 mean recent success for any team.

That fact is not lost in this thread. URU has had more recent success than England

[resistanze]

Sorry to kick you when you're down urunobili, but I stumbled across this. Previously unseen footage of the Maracanazo.

god damn

[dfens]

That fact is not lost in this thread. URU has had more recent success than England

I don't know why but I had the impression you are an englishman (sorry if by mistake). For the life of me I can't understand why it is so hard for england to put a decent team when all the other countries that regularly obsses about football and that have comparable populations are truly traditional footballing powers (france, italy, germany, brazil, argentina, spain). Even minor population countries such as the netherlands, portugal or uruguay have had more success throughout history.

Do you have an opinion on this. Besides england sucks , we all know that. Lol my english coworkers are always saying like "it was close". No sons it was not.

[Venti Quattro]

I don't know why but I had the impression you are an englishman (sorry if by mistake). For the life of me I can't understand why it is so hard for england to put a decent team when all the other countries that regularly obsses about football and that have comparable populations are truly traditional footballing powers (france, italy, germany, brazil, argentina, spain). Even minor population countries such as the netherlands, portugal or uruguay have had more success throughout history.

Do you have an opinion on this. Besides england sucks , we all know that. Lol my english coworkers are always saying like "it was close". No sons it was not.

It's because the English clubs are too busy with worrying about sugar daddy clubs while other footballing powerhouses pounce on the opportunity by letting their players walk to the EPL. The EPL is the most exciting and compe ive league in Europe but it zaps away English potential because of many internationals and that is good for countries like Germany and France. Even Spain which has its backbone of RMA and FCB players has a steady diet of players from the EPL.

Did you see CIV and CAM's lineups? The only faces I could recognize are EPL players.

[dfens]

It's because the English clubs are too busy with worrying about sugar daddy clubs while other footballing powerhouses pounce on the opportunity by letting their players walk to the EPL. The EPL is the most exciting and compe ive league in Europe but it zaps away English potential because of many internationals and that is good for countries like Germany and France. Even Spain which has its backbone of RMA and FCB players has a steady diet of players from the EPL.

Did you see CIV and CAM's lineups? The only faces I could recognize are EPL players.

extremely debatable but agree in rest.

[Venti Quattro]

extremely debatable but agree in rest.

For me it is imo. Let's take a look at their closest rival leagues

Spain - Atletico were a welcome addition in 2013/14 but they are a selling club, so they'll be back to being a contender who will never win against RMA and FCB.
Germany - Bayern Munich are killing the compe ion both on and off the pitch
Italy - It's Juventus' league, really
France -
Scotland-

[dfens]

For me it is imo. Let's take a look at their closest rival leagues

Spain - Atletico were a welcome addition in 2013/14 but they are a selling club, so they'll be back to being a contender who will never win against RMA and FCB.
Germany - Bayern Munich are killing the compe ion both on and off the pitch
Italy - It's Juventus' league, really
France -
Scotland-

You could say that the english league has the least compe ion if you look at les in the last 10 years. After the german league, of course with bayern winning almost always.

i'd rather evaluate the strength of a league by results in international compe ions (CL, uefa). It is the only way to quantify and compare after all. Also, I find that, in general, the football played in england can only be successfull there whereas the football played in other leagues is more varied and thus is more difficult to counter.

Chelsea manchester liverpool are the only english teams that got to the CL semi finals in the last 10 years or won any europa leagues (from memory).
Look at other leagues:
spain - deportivo, barcelona, valencia, real madrid, atletico madrid, bilbao, celta
italy - juventus, inter, milan, fiorentina, roma, lazio, napoli
germany - bayern, leverkusen, dortmund, schalke
france - lyon, psg, monaco

I also find english teams to be extremely lacking from a tactical standpoint and when they won they won in an extremely ugly fashion (chelsea) or in an extremely lucky fashion(manchester, liverpool). There never were english teams that really won and looked true champions(figo zidane raul real, 2010s barca, old milan, bayern). From a footballing standpoint I was never impressed with the english league, I find that they play too fast, just to get the (imo unknowledgeable)crowd excited ... when other teams have been extraordinary inovators from a tactical standpoint (tiki-taka, milans specific total football 1990s, milans elastic defense 2000s, early 2000 real with the makelele type midfielder which was in the late 2000s copied by everybody, inter's defense that turned into 4-3-3/4-2-1-2-1 that you see today played ad nauseam, juventus' fullback usage, 2000s valencia's usage of the short-long ground passes ... milan also used this alot, 1990s bayern libero/cdm switching).

IMO, I find that the chronic downfall of english football is their inability to really THINK. They just play mechanised strength/pace uninventive football and that is always bound to fail against a decently talented team. Even with all the foreign players playing there they still play by the same principles. It's just an old fashioned mentality and it's obvious it is far inferior tactically. The fact that football is such a small margin sport also defavors the english pov because they think they were close when they really weren't.

[resistanze]

Chelsea manchester liverpool are the only english teams that got to the CL semi finals in the last 10 years or won any europa leagues (from memory).
Look at other leagues:
spain - deportivo, barcelona, valencia, real madrid, atletico madrid, bilbao, celta
italy - juventus, inter, milan, fiorentina, roma, lazio, napoli
germany - bayern, leverkusen, dortmund, schalke
france - lyon, psg, monaco

Arsenal you bas !

Everything you said is just highly subjective however; 'true champions' and the like are typically bs qualifiers. If playing like 'true champions' or super tactical is better, then the other teams should've beat Chelsea, or Liverpool or Man U. As I've always said if you go through the whole European tournament and you win, there can be no qualms.

Also I think Venti's point was compe iveness WITHIN the league. Athletico broke a decade stranglehold of Real/Barca and it was lovely. Although personally, I think the skill level of Liga is not different overall from EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga etc.

[dfens]

Arsenal you bas !

Everything you said is just highly subjective however; 'true champions' and the like are typically bs qualifiers. If playing like 'true champions' or super tactical is better, then the other teams should've beat Chelsea, or Liverpool or Man U. As I've always said if you go through the whole European tournament and you win, there can be no qualms.

Also I think Venti's point was compe iveness WITHIN the league. Athletico broke a decade stranglehold of Real/Barca and it was lovely. Although personally, I think the skill level of Liga is not different overall from EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga etc.

@arsenal forgot about them tbh.

@being subjective.
true champions means winning without a doubt, leaving little to chance. Football is a one-an-done series so luck plays a heavy role when two teams of close value play each other. It's simple statistics which I consider undebatable given the extremely low sampling rate (goals) by which teams are rated for results.

One can win 1-0 the entire tournament like spain the first euro or the 2010wc and nobody can say they weren't head and shoulders above the rest or one can win like 70s brazil, 2010s barca, 2000s real, 1990s milan or bayern a couple of years ago .. en fanfare. Those were all dominant performances even though they each had a unique style. You could just see those teams controlling games and leaving little to chance.

Or one can win with 2 goals in extra time when the other team hit the post three times (manchester 1999). Or another example is chelsea taking it in the ass big time from bayern just to win by a last minute goal. Or coming back from being down 3-0. That's a choke tbh. The last three prove that the team won by being lucky not by imposing their style of play (= dominating the other teams). So true champions is not a stylistical term nor does it refer to tactics. It refers to the fact that the outcome of the game was in little doubt and that the winners controlled the matches throughout the compe ion.



Furthermore you seem to have completly failed to understand my post. It is not about the skill or monkeying around with ball, that is almost equally distributed between leagues. It is about HOW those skills are used within a team framework. If you have aguerro/teves/nasri at city, that is a tremendously skilled trio but they still have to be fed. If the same trio would've played for sevilla in spain they would be fed in a very different way. The standard EPL way of feeding/playing the strikers is pretty rudimentary and individualistic, only arsenal had a more creative style of play due to wanger (which has also many flaws btw..).

Now compare that to the creativity, offensive collectivism and ball retention of brazil/argentina/portugal/netherlands/spain/italy/france (zidane's,platini's). This creates the effect of being used to control/keep the ball under pressure. And also the ability to establish and maintain pace with which you can calm down a boiling match or destabilize the rythm like italy did it to england a couple of days ago. These are thing for which english football (NT and EPL) is not exactly renown to put it mildly. Even the germans had played ball retention and match control since the 70s and at the individual level they aren't the most creative.

That's my quarell with english football, it's too damn simplistic and because of that they allways need more space in which to run. That's why you have those wide teams. That's why they have world class complimentary players (defenders, effort midfielders, wingers, strikers) but they NEVER have world class teams because they fail to understand that ball retention&control and a creative, tightly knit midfield are the keys to dominance. And since they never play this brand of football (especially at the early player development state) they'll never develop players like pirlo,xavi, iniesta, zidane, figo, messi, ozil, rui costa, which are the keys behind every big tournament win.

I'd even say that such creative players play differently in the EPL then when they play continental football. Look at fabregas, aguerro, nasri and so on.

[dfens]

btw even if by (Very) rare luck do such players develop they are almost always misused at a national level in order to fit within the group since the group does not realize it's true weakness because they are all *stars* . How the can you name terry or beckham or lampard a footballing star. A good footballer turned media star by national obssession would better imo.

Paul scholes is an excellent example. England's best deep creation &game controlling talent squandered on long balls to heskey.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Well done urunobili. For all the rivalry, you had our support for this one. I was working in downtown Buenos Aires and people gathered in front of the TVs celebrated your goals and clapped when the match ended. Some Uruguayans living here, but others were Argies whose disdain for England and sympathy for Uruguay sent them into a frenzy.

[urunobili]

Well done urunobili. For all the rivalry, you had our support for this one. I was working in downtown Buenos Aires and people gathered in front of the TVs celebrated your goals and clapped when the match ended. Some Uruguayans living here, but others were Argies whose disdain for England and sympathy for Uruguay sent them into a frenzy.

it's understandable with the UY'an Falklands issue you faced in the past tbh. Maradona said Luis would be back strong because he had big balls

Thanks for the props but if we don't beat Italy we may very well be bumping this thread for its original purpose...

[Relevancy]

Uruguay hasnt been that good. Italy will beat them, or I might be wrong and Uruguay yet again win with the play like and still win formula.

[Franklin]

England ain't out yet though, if Uruguay lose to Italy in game 3 and England beat Costa Rica, each of the three teams (England, Uruguay, Costa Rica) will have 3pts, with goal difference being the tie breaker. England still have the hope to qualify even after losing two games, imho

[diego]

Re: England, I think that funnily enough they share a flaw with argentina- people are too obsessed. Coaches never last long because press and fans constantly rip them apart, promising players are forced to carry unrealistic expectations, old guys are able to pass expiration on past glory. National teams dont practice every week and alll those distractions take their toll.

On top of that a lot of mental mistakes and poor composure, you could argue too that England have lost their iden y.

And everyone likes to talk about argentina 78 but England 66 was pretty bad too as far as robberies go, at least Uruguay has won outside of uruguay (which was after Hitler the un the NBA etc, still a long ass time ago)

[Franklin]

France hasn't won WC outside of France either, tbh.

[Blizzardwizard]

IMO, I find that the chronic downfall of english football is their inability to really THINK. They just play mechanised strength/pace uninventive football and that is always bound to fail against a decently talented team. Even with all the foreign players playing there they still play by the same principles. It's just an old fashioned mentality and it's obvious it is far inferior tactically. The fact that football is such a small margin sport also defavors the english pov because they think they were close when they really weren't.

This notion is more a stereotype than anything else I have to say. Just because the national team is seen to play this way doesn't mean it's the entire mentality of the country. I know from my own experience that from the word go nowadays, players here are now taught to play the ball on the ground and to pass more often. If you look deep enough into divisions other than the premier league, you find that most teams have adopted this style of play. It is also a stereotype that playing tiki-taka guarantees you success, which Spain have proven to be wrong.

It is obviously a problem that foreign talent comes in its droves to England, but the real problem lies with the older english managers in the premier league (the vast majority are in their 50s and 60s) knowing no other way than the traditional English way of long ball. Managers like Roberto Martinez and Maurcio Pochettino are now starting to take over the premier league and this will only help the country learn to play the ball on the ground more.

[Franklin]

Agree, you could hardly imagine so many Spanish players flourishing in the premier league back in 90s and early 00s, while now each premier league teams has 2-3 Spanish players on their squad playing pivotal roles.

[ManuLoco]

I saw yesterday that Uruguay has 4 stars... did they win two more world cups that anyone of us are aware of because those records were lost in the Library of Alexandria fire?

[urunobili]

I saw yesterday that Uruguay has 4 stars... did they win two more world cups that anyone of us are aware of because those records were lost in the Library of Alexandria fire?

FIFA organized the Olympic tournaments of 1924 and 1928 which were the world championship then. When they did their own tourney (1930) it was negotiated that the two previous ones were recognized as WCs. So technically we've rang 4 times...

[Relevancy]

How many teams were in the tournament though

[it's me]

FIFA organized the Olympic tournaments of 1924 and 1928 which were the world championship then. When they did their own tourney (1930) it was negotiated that the two previous ones were recognized as WCs. So technically we've rang 4 times...

[dfens]

FIFA organized the Olympic tournaments of 1924 and 1928 which were the world championship then. When they did their own tourney (1930) it was negotiated that the two previous ones were recognized as WCs. So technically we've rang 4 times...

taking a play from culburns "16 time world champion reporting. saw mikan live" repertoire aren't we?