yeah it is
"Obama and Kerry were selling the bombing of Syria as helping the freedom fighters vs Assad's dictatorship"
Initially, at least in the press, it was legit Syrian people fighting Assad, but later AQ, etc started fighting Assad, too. complicated, factions.
That was probably the main reason very little help from the West to those fighting Assad.
Refresher
Last edited by pgardn; 08-15-2014 at 07:20 AM.
We have learned harsh dictators are sometimes a better option than the alternative, chaos.
Again, note big Bush stopping short of Baghdad after the most incredible military wipe out in military history, Desert Storm. This historic military devastation made us very y imo.
We are still learning how complex this stuff is.
There have been very different outcomes in different regions.
Iraq, we totally ruined it. We caused more misery than there was to begin with.
Last edited by pgardn; 08-15-2014 at 07:05 AM.
Maliki resigns: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...litical-world/
Possibly a + development.
He was outted by Iraw's top shiite cleric a week ago and everyone had moved on from him but at lest he finally saw the light.
As far as I am aware, Obama was not a leader in the Ottoman Empire, so pardon my confusion about why it is relevant.Obama and Kerry were selling the bombing of Syria as helping the freedom fighters vs Assad's dictatorship. They were selling their bull to anyone who would listenYou know it, I know it and everyone else knows it. Stop playing dumb
Read history on the Ottoman Empire and you will see it was a magnificent empire. Read history books is all I can say, can't help you much more than that. Good luck.
You still don't have any quotes of Obama or Kerry referring to ISIS as freedom fighters, so I will have to assume there aren't any.
If your worldview is based on assumptions that can be shown to be incorrect, shouldn't that cause you to rethink conclusions based on them?
Kerry and Obama were selling the Syria war for the US to fight alongside the extremists. Its already in the history books.
if you think a fact like that is assumption then you probably should rethink your point of view after getting more informed.
We didn't arm the Syrians. That is turning out to be the right choice but I cannot speak for the saudi royal family or any of the arab league and their army building. The caliphists are in the foothills of the Mesopotamian river valley and very easily could end up getting cut off from their 'allies' in syria on the heights. they are not the singular you keep on talking about them as.
We are arming the kurds though. I think of all the people displaced by the British with their nation making the Kurds and Palestinians both got big sandwiches. The despot is standing down.
It's still a cluster but it is not quite the disaster it was two weeks ago.
Obama and Kerry were selling the bombing of Syria as helping the freedom fighters vs Assad's dictatorship. They were selling their bull to anyone who would listen
Read history on the Ottoman Empire [yada yada yada-RG]
Your assertion doesn't get to be a fact until you can offer more evidence than your chest-thumping.
Just to be sure, do you have a link to Obama or Kerry calling the ISIS militants "freedom fighters" or not?
Last edited by RandomGuy; 08-18-2014 at 12:23 PM.
We didn't arm the people fighting the Syrian regime for good reason, but we did offer them non-lethal items like body armor, food and camo stuff, if memory serves. (I will provide links to details in a bit, see below)
I would go into more detail on the conflict, but don't want to let Che off the hook just yet. I will let him try to back up his bull with facts and demonstrate some knowledge of current events for a little while longer, and then give a good detailed summary of just what exactly Kerry and Obama were saying about whom, and why.
there is no detailed to sum up dummy. If your brain cannot accept the simple fact that Kerry and Obama wanted to aid the extremists in Syria even more so than financing and arming them but also by bombing Assads army. If you cannot accept that fact, it just means you are in plain denial comrade.
Carry on
Meh. I will take that as a white flag. Good enough, you got caught pulling stuff out of your ass and try to cover it up with cheap trolling.
Carry on
ISIS was Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and has always been considered a terrorist group.
Quick primer on ISIS history:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...istory/376030/
ISIS was formerly AlQaeda in Iraq, but had to rebrand themselves after gaining a reputation for ed bloodlust that killed a lot of innocent civilians.
The group has been labeled a terrorist organization by the state Department since 2004, and there is no mention of this group being called "freedom fighters" by either Kerry or Obama and anyone who suggests that a sitting president or Secretary of State would call any group formally listed as a terrorist organization such is ing laughable.
List of terrorist organizations held by the State Department, with year placed on list, look for "Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn" (QJBR)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._Organizations
A bit more background on this group:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaed...Iraq_.28AQI.29
Be happy to provide the non-wiki links if asked. This stuff isn't hard to find, wiki just provides a lot of collected summaries and was convenient.
Where you went wrong is that you don't seem to know the difference between ISIS, who are a group of non-syrian violent jihadis from dozens of countries, and the syrian rebels, who are, well, syrian. Within the syrian rebellion, there are violent jihadi's but they have their own groups.
See a fair list of them, and there are a lot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rian_Civil_War
Here is what Obama and Kerry have actually been doing:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8701OK20120801
Obama has, rightly, been calling for support of the people telling their own government to stop shooting and jailing them.The White House is for now apparently stopping short of giving the rebels lethal weapons, even as some U.S. allies do just that.
The only way you could really disagree with that is if you are ok with the Syrian government's actions in torturing, jailing, and actively shooting protesters.
Do you think this isn't happening? or didn't?
Your posts are a bit muddled, so it is hard to tell what you are trying to get at.
Last edited by RandomGuy; 08-18-2014 at 03:59 PM.
Our own government tortures and shoots jihadists at will. Why cant Syria on their own territory to protect their integrity? Whos the US to be the one to say whos a good jihadist and whos a bad one??? Ridiculous
plus you keep missing the fact that by bombing assad, Obama was going to help ALL jihadists. Including ISIS and all other groups in Syria. Your evasion to this point will be duly noted as a white flag.
Obama bombed Assad?Our own government tortures and shoots jihadists at will. Why cant Syria on their own territory to protect their integrity? Whos the US to be the one to say whos a good jihadist and whos a bad one??? Ridiculous
plus you keep missing the fact that by bombing assad, Obama was going to help ALL jihadists. Including ISIS and all other groups in Syria. Your evasion to this point will be duly noted as a white flag.
Link.
didn't say he did. He wanted to until the American people and Putin stopped him. They saved his legacy with that move.
so I keep missing the fact that by bombing Assad, Obama was going to...Our own government tortures and shoots jihadists at will. Why cant Syria on their own territory to protect their integrity? Whos the US to be the one to say whos a good jihadist and whos a bad one??? Ridiculous
plus you keep missing the fact that by bombing assad, Obama was going to help ALL jihadists. Including ISIS and all other groups in Syria. Your evasion to this point will be duly noted as a white flag.
Ok then....
A message to America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uK0...ature=youtu.be
Savages
Germany to Arm Kurds Battling ISIS
Chancellor Angela Merkel told lawmakers on Monday that her government had decided to break with a taboo on delivering weapons to conflict zones because Germany and all of Europe faced a security threat from the extremists of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
Ms. Merkel and top ministers decided Sunday to deliver thousands of machine guns, as well as an ank missiles and armored vehicles, to Kurdish forces battling ISIS in northern Iraq. The deliveries — from existing German Army stocks, and worth an estimated 70 million euros, or almost $92 million — will take place in stages in the coming weeks, the Defense Ministry said.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/02...tml?from=world
Donny "you got to war with Secy of Defense you have, not the one you want" Rumsfeld now whitewashing his Iraq up, having the COURAGE to speak and disagree with Useful Idiot dubya.
Donald Rumsfeld's regret over Iraq? Trying to 'fashion a democracy' there
At long last, Bush administration Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has found something he regrets in the way the U.S. war against Iraq was sold and executed.
Not the bit about weapons of mass destruction that weren't there, or the entirely fictional ties to al Qaeda and 9/11, orShock and Awe, or the insistence that the war would pay for itself, or the use of mercenary forces, or the bizarre fixation with outsourcing various other parts of the U.S. military response, or the shortchanging of the Afghanistan mission in favor of a war the Bush administration's top officials could get more excited about.No, the part that he doesn't like is the bit where we tried to convert them to democracy afterwards.
“I’m not one who thinks that our particular template of democracy is appropriate for other countries at every moment of their histories.
The idea that we could fashion a democracy in Iraq seemed to me unrealistic.
I was concerned about it when I first heard those words.” ( and but surely silently concerned, natch. )
Rumsfeld, of course, has never been one to worry about whether a prospective American ally was a democracy or dictatorship; that much-passed-around picture of the smiling Rumsfeld shaking hands with the murderous chemical weapons-using Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, back when Hussein was an important United States ally, makes the point rather succinctly.
Given that breaking the nation up into sectarian sections was never in the cards, we can only read this as a Rumsfeldian wish that we had simply installed a different strongman as Iraqi head of state and been done with it.
He does, however, continue his long tradition of being gloriously oblivious.
He warned that Arab nations are disintegrating, and said that the West’s airstrikes in Libya had served to further destabilize the region.
Yes, that is what "destabilized" the region. Airstrikes in Libya. Sharp as a tack, he is.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/08/1391612/-Donald-Rumsfeld-s-regret-over-Iraq-Trying-to-fashion-a-democracy-there?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_ca mpaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos%29#
So now do we "know an unknown" (probably a lie, but it's war criminal Rumsfeld), so how many unknowns we don't know now?
Rumsfeld, a PNACer, knew invading Iraq was for oil, URGENTLY to stop Saddam from contracting oil deals with Russia, China, France.
A "liberator loving", democratic Iraq as US puppet to establish US hegemony over oil countries was secondary. As the article said, replacing Saddam with a ruthless Iraqi, anti-democratic strongman of Repugs' choosing would have been just fine.
Last edited by boutons_deux; 06-09-2015 at 04:52 AM.
And then there's these people, another group so deeply grateful to the Repugs and BigOil
The Global Struggle to Respond to the Worst Refugee Crisis in Generations
Eleven million people were uprooted by violence last year, most propelled by conflict in Syria, Iraq, Ukraine and Afghanistan.
Conflict and extreme poverty have also pushed tens of thousands out of parts of sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia.
Here’s a look at the international response to what has become the worst migration crisis since World War II, according to the United Nations.
TAXING THE NEIGHBORS
Years of violence in Iraq and Syria have stretched the capacities of neighboring countries to accommodate the displaced.
In Jordan, unemployment has almost doubled since 2011 in areas with high concentrations of refugees, according to a recent International Labor Organization study.
Lebanon began to require visas from Syrians in January.
Refugees now make up about 20 percent of Lebanon’s population.
In March, Turkey announced it would close the two remaining border gates with Syria.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/09/world/migrants-global-refugee-crisis-mediterranean-ukraine-syria-rohingya-malaysia-iraq.html
If Obama proposed some $Bs in aid to help m/e countries flooded with refugees from Repugs' m/e disaster, would the Repugs approve the spending?
Last edited by boutons_deux; 06-09-2015 at 05:34 AM.
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