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  1. #601
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Yep, Ferguson and especially New York were perversions of the Grand Jury system by prosecutors with cleat conflicts of interest. They were working for the defense and not the people. The results would have been much easier to take had the legal procedures not been so out of the ordinary.
    For them to have been ordinary, the Prosecutor in Ferguson would have never brought the case in the first place but, that wasn't acceptable to the "Hands up, don't shoot" crowd. Of course, taking it to the Grand Jury wasn't acceptable to them either.

  2. #602
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    For them to have been ordinary, the Prosecutor in Ferguson would have never brought the case in the first place but, that wasn't acceptable to the "Hands up, don't shoot" crowd. Of course, taking it to the Grand Jury wasn't acceptable to them either.
    Inasmuch as ordinary is allowing the police to act without oversight or accountability to parties without a vested interest in protecting them, sure.

    I agree if DAs had their druthers they would never ever bring a case involving a cop to a grand jury. It's a clear conflict of interest.

  3. #603
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Inasmuch as ordinary is allowing the police to act without oversight or accountability to parties without a vested interest in protecting them, sure.

    I agree if DAs had their druthers they would never ever bring a case involving a cop to a grand jury. It's a clear conflict of interest.
    If that were the case, every police-involved shooting, brought before a Grand Jury, would have to have been "forced" by an aggrieved community and that just isn't the case. Many police-involved shootings are presented to Grand Juries; some result in indictment and trials. Some are found guilty and sent to prison.

    What's your point?

  4. #604
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    If that were the case, every police-involved shooting, brought before a Grand Jury, would have to have been "forced" by an aggrieved community and that just isn't the case. Many police-involved shootings are presented to Grand Juries; some result in indictment and trials. Some are found guilty and sent to prison.

    What's your point?
    I already made my point. There is a de facto conflict of interest in any local grand jury action brought by a local DA against a local law enforcement officer.

    Nobody "forced" the DA to do anything, so I'm glad you used quotation marks.

  5. #605
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    I already made my point. There is a de facto conflict of interest in any local grand jury action brought by a local DA against a local law enforcement officer.
    It's the system we have. Work to change it.

    I don't see anything su ious in the way this prosecutor handled what had become a very charged incident.

    Nobody "forced" the DA to do anything, so I'm glad you used quotation marks.
    Well, depends on how you define "forced," This prosecutor said he was proceeding as he was because of the enormous amount of public and media interest and that he hoped it would quell the upset he was witnessing in the community. Of course, he felt that way because he knew the facts of the case exonerated Wilson and showed Brown to be exactly what most people suspected, a thug who assaulted and tried to kill Wilson.

    Unfortunately, the "community" wasn't interested in facts.

  6. #606
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    It's the system we have. Work to change it.

    I don't see anything su ious in the way this prosecutor handled what had become a very charged incident.
    No one would ever expect you to see anything close to a conflict. When it comes to justice, you are blind.


    Well, depends on how you define "forced," This prosecutor said he was proceeding as he was because of the enormous amount of public and media interest and that he hoped it would quell the upset he was witnessing in the community. Of course, he felt that way because he knew the facts of the case exonerated Wilson and showed Brown to be exactly what most people suspected, a thug who assaulted and tried to kill Wilson.

    Unfortunately, the "community" wasn't interested in facts.
    So he wasn't forced. Just another official acting out of his self-perceived terror.

  7. #607
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    No one would ever expect you to see anything close to a conflict. When it comes to justice, you are blind.
    If you bring a criminal complaint, should a District Attorney you voted for not be allowed to prosecute the case?

    I don't see how police officers involved in homicides are any different than ordinary citizens involved in homicides. The District Attorney looks at all violent deaths and makes a determination, based on the facts, of whether or not to pursue an indictment. If he doesn't think the facts warrant indictment, he doesn't bring it; if he does, he does.

    I'll grant that in the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was unique but, not because the prosecutor was acting on behalf of the officer but because the community demanded he present the case to a Grand Jury; which he did. What did you want him to do at that point? Pretend evidence existed that would incriminate Officer Wilson? Pretend he was seeking an indictment for a crime he does not believe is supported by the facts available?

    I'm not sure what you're upset about. Please elaborate. Exactly what did the Prosecutor do/not do that resulted in an injustice?

    So he wasn't forced. Just another official acting out of his self-perceived terror.
    I'm with you, I would have told the community the evidence didn't support prosecution and, therefore, no case would be presented to the Grand Jury. But, he is a Democrat so, there's that.

  8. #608
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    If you bring a criminal complaint, should a District Attorney you voted for not be allowed to prosecute the case?

    I don't see how police officers involved in homicides are any different than ordinary citizens involved in homicides. The District Attorney looks at all violent deaths and makes a determination, based on the facts, of whether or not to pursue an indictment. If he doesn't think the facts warrant indictment, he doesn't bring it; if he does, he does.

    I'll grant that in the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was unique but, not because the prosecutor was acting on behalf of the officer but because the community demanded he present the case to a Grand Jury; which he did. What did you want him to do at that point? Pretend evidence existed that would incriminate Officer Wilson? Pretend he was seeking an indictment for a crime he does not believe is supported by the facts available?

    I'm not sure what you're upset about. Please elaborate. Exactly what did the Prosecutor do/not do that resulted in an injustice?
    I said you would never see the inherent conflict of interest and I was right.


    I'm with you, I would have told the community the evidence didn't support prosecution and, therefore, no case would be presented to the Grand Jury. But, he is a Democrat so, there's that.
    Hey, look at you making it partisan!

    Again!

  9. #609
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    I said you would never see the inherent conflict of interest and I was right.
    You're right, I don't see it.

    Hey, look at you making it partisan!

    Again!
    Just his cowardice in not standing up to the community. That's typically a Democrat trait.

  10. #610
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    You're right, I don't see it.
    Of course you don't.


    Politics!

  11. #611
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    You know what I would support, Chump?

    A law that requires ALL District Attorney's to do what this District Attorney did in the Ferguson case. Present all evidence to a Grand Jury and give them the full range of options on what indictments could possibly be reached in the event, step back, and let them decide.

    What would you have done differently?

    What exactly did the prosecutor do, or not do, that has you so concerned?

  12. #612
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Of course you don't.
    Do tell. But, please, do explain what conflict exists with this prosecutor that does not exist with every other prosecutor so situated.

    And, then, tell us your solution.

  13. #613
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    You know what I would support, Chump?

    A law that requires ALL District Attorney's to do what this District Attorney did in the Ferguson case. Present all evidence to a Grand Jury and give them the full range of options on what indictments could possibly be reached in the event, step back, and let them decide.

    What would you have done differently?

    What exactly did the prosecutor do, or not do, that has you so concerned?
    If a prosecutor doesn't want an indictment in the first place, how might that affect his presentation to the Grand Jury?

    Do tell. But, please, do explain what conflict exists with this prosecutor that does not exist with every other prosecutor so situated.
    I didn't say his conflict was unique, genius.

    And, then, tell us your solution.
    Get someone without the conflict of interest, genius.

  14. #614
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    If a prosecutor doesn't want an indictment in the first place, how might that affect his presentation to the Grand Jury?
    Normally, a prosecutor who does not see evidence supporting a crime would not even present it to the Grand Jury.

    I didn't say his conflict was unique, genius.
    So, it exists in all cases? Why hasn't there been a bigger deal made of this?

    Get someone without the conflict of interest, genius.
    Who would that be? They already let the public pick the prosecutor.

  15. #615
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    Normally, a prosecutor who does not see evidence supporting a crime would not even present it to the Grand Jury.
    Great.


    So, it exists in all cases? Why hasn't there been a bigger deal made of this?
    Who knows? You about the media all the time. Certainly seems to be getting more profile now.


    Who would that be? They already let the public pick the prosecutor.
    Read slowly: Get someone without the conflict of interest, genius.

  16. #616
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Great.


    Who knows? You about the media all the time. Certainly seems to be getting more profile now.


    Read slowly: Get someone without the conflict of interest, genius.
    Okay, genius, how is that person selected? We already elect them.

    I think my idea is better, require them to present all evidence in a Grand Jury, every time an officer is involved in a fatal shooting on duty. Period. No exceptions.

    Except, of course, that's exactly what happened in this case and you're still ing.

    You still haven't explained exactly what the prosecutor did, or didn't, do that resulted in an injustice.

  17. #617
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Okay, genius, how is that person selected? We already elect them.

    I think my idea is better, require them to present all evidence in a Grand Jury, every time an officer is involved in a fatal shooting on duty. Period. No exceptions.

    Except, of course, that's exactly what happened in this case and you're still ing.

    You still haven't explained exactly what the prosecutor did, or didn't, do that resulted in an injustice.
    I explained there is an inherent conflict of interest.

    You didn't understand it and never will, so here we are.

  18. #618
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    I explained there is an inherent conflict of interest.

    You didn't understand it and never will, so here we are.
    I get what you're saying but, you won't say to what you believe that "inherent conflict of interest" led in this case.

    I'd be interested to know.

    I think the prosecutor did the only thing he could, under the cir stances. He gave every shred of evidence to the Grand Jury, handed over 5 separate indictments, covering every possible crime that could be defined by the cir stances, and stood back and let the process work.

  19. #619
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I get what you're saying but, you won't say to what you believe that "inherent conflict of interest" led in this case.

    I'd be interested to know.
    With whom do prosecutors usually work to build and present their cases?

  20. #620
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    With whom do prosecutors usually work to build and present their cases?
    Complainants.

    But, seriously, are you aware of some injustice done in this case? Please share.

  21. #621
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    With whom do prosecutors usually work to build and present their cases?
    Given the close relationships between local police departments and local district attorneys in building and presenting cases, one would think that the go-to move in a case involving the conduct of a police officer would be to seek out another prosecutor who might not be so beholden to his allies on the police force (and dependent, to a large extent, upon those allies providing assistance -- something that might be jeopardized if the local police force perceives that a district attorney has exerted a little too much pressure in his prosecutorial choices).

    Sorry for short-circuiting the pedagogy.

  22. #622
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Is that the only party with which DAs work to build and present their cases?

  23. #623
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    Is that the only party with which DAs work to build and present their cases?
    Witnesses too.

  24. #624
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    But not cops. Not ever with cops.

  25. #625
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    But not cops. Not ever with cops.
    When they're witnesses or complainants, sure.

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