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  1. #26
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I understand that Boutons, but at least if they're "important" skilled workers, they have to pay the same salaries as an American. I'm fine with more immigrants, and realize that many who get temp jobs here end up settling here too, which I think is a good thing. I can understand wanting to protect American jobs too, I just don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if they get skilled non-Americans to perform the jobs.

  2. #27
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    "I just don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if they get skilled non-Americans to perform the jobs."

    Of course, IT IS NECESSARILY BAD FAITH by BigCorp.

    Less salary costs enriches investors. A classic capitalism vs labor battle, and capitalism has won.





  3. #28
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I understand that it certainly enriches the pockets of the fatcats, at the expense of workers. But it's also providing jobs for people who likely need them, even if they aren't American.

  4. #29
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    I understand that it certainly enriches the pockets of the fatcats, at the expense of workers. But it's also providing jobs for people who likely need them, even if they aren't American.
    Asians have plenty of jobs in their countries, esp India.

    The Corporate-Asians running the body shops for their own enrichment are as bad faith at the Corporate-Americans buying the bodies.

  5. #30
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I understand that Boutons, but at least if they're "important" skilled workers, they have to pay the same salaries as an American. I'm fine with more immigrants, and realize that many who get temp jobs here end up settling here too, which I think is a good thing. I can understand wanting to protect American jobs too, I just don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if they get skilled non-Americans to perform the jobs.
    This is actually not happening, and that's one problem.

  6. #31
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    they have to pay the same salaries as an American

  7. #32
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    ElNono, how/why are they not paying the same salaries they would for an American? Is it that the workers are willing to accept less money than Americans, or is there an actual loophole? And Boutons, for someone who always is trying to side with the "little guy", I didn't realize you were so biased towards the American little guy.

  8. #33
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    ElNono, how/why are they not paying the same salaries they would for an American? Is it that the workers are willing to accept less money than Americans, or is there an actual loophole? And Boutons, for someone who always is trying to side with the "little guy", I didn't realize you were so biased towards the American little guy.
    It's a loophole. Instead of hiring the workers, they contract the work to a "consulting company" (ie: Tata). That company is the one hiring the H1Bs. Under this arrangement, there's no longer a direct link to the work the foreigner is going to be doing vis a vis his salary. Basically, they now have to match a salary for an employee working for a consulting company. It's a low salary compared to an experienced IT worker. Some of that work might end up not even being done in the US by a H1B worker.

    Not only that, the company shredding the jobs doesn't have to offer the bonuses, raises, benefits or pension packages offered to the rest of the company.

    It has gotten so bad that almost half of H1B's are being requested by these "consulting" companies, and at this point they have a rotating staff of H1B workers to tackle the contract work as it comes. Some of these companies have been found to file multiple H1B requests for the same person, something the USCIS recently banned once they caught up to the scheming.

    It's a complete gaming of the H1B system.

  9. #34
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The H1B system was designed in a way such that if a company like Facebook or Microsoft needed certain type of workers and couldn't find them in the US, they could bring them over, pay them the same salary as an American worker, with bonuses, raises, benefits, etc, and this worker couldn't go work for another company (taking over another american job). But with this system they're now indirectly doing work for multiple companies, and getting paid less. Not only that, they depress the overall salary value in the local IT economy. For the foreign worker it's a good gig, they get to visit and live in the US for a few years, gives them a path to potential residency/citizenship, and odds are they were not getting raises, benefits or a pension in their country anyways...

    The American worker though is the one getting the shaft...

  10. #35
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    ElNono, ok thanks for the headsup. Hm. Hard to ungame that system. I don't have the math to back me up, but I feel like the US should be allowing more immigration rather than less, even if it does depress salary. As fellow IT, I wouldn't be too thrilled about lowering the cost, but to play devil's advocate, do these H1Bs have the technical skills to fulfill these skilled jobs? Or are the companies just accepting that risk?

  11. #36
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    ElNono, ok thanks for the headsup. Hm. Hard to ungame that system. I don't have the math to back me up, but I feel like the US should be allowing more immigration rather than less, even if it does depress salary. As fellow IT, I wouldn't be too thrilled about lowering the cost, but to play devil's advocate, do these H1Bs have the technical skills to fulfill these skilled jobs? Or are the companies just accepting that risk?
    Some probably do, some definitely don't. But these decisions are being made by the same guys that are more interested in showing better numbers for next quarter than actual technical people. Look at HP or Compaq, once the company took a nose dive, the CEO gets a golden parachute, runs for president and nobody gives a what happened 2-3 years ago.

    Plus, the H1B system was reserved to the truly unique, skilled people that you couldn't find in the US. There's no way these guys are that. No bank in Wall Street is going to subcontract work on their trade secret algos, or Disney is going to replace their top notch animators and render engineers with these guys. Google and Apple aren't relying on subcontractors to write their OS. This has to be for the "menial" stuff: web sites, mobile apps, etc. There's plenty of small businesses and guys in the US that can do those.

    The whole thing it's just uneven ground. H1Bs are temporary visas. Most of them don't end up qualifying for sponsorship. It really is a temp worker situation going on. The american worker is here for the long haul, needs to eventually buy a house here, send the kids to college, save up enough for retirement.

    I'm a former H1B holder, now a citizen, and run my own business, so this doesn't really affects me much, but the system has completely changed now. These consulting companies are the equivalent of sweat shops. I feel for the americans or just the guys that are here for the long run. It's next to impossible to compete with that.

  12. #37
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Hm. Thanks for the insight Elnono. On a tangent, how are you doing businesswise? Only four more years til I'm eligible for retirement, and I'll definitely be going into IT.

  13. #38
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Hm. Thanks for the insight Elnono. On a tangent, how are you doing businesswise? Only four more years til I'm eligible for retirement, and I'll definitely be going into IT.
    Business goes up and down, but generally we're doing ok. Waiting on a gig right now that could be pretty good, but we're under NDA so I can't really talk about

  14. #39
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Totally understand that. I might be pinging you in five years or so...

  15. #40
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Totally understand that. I might be pinging you in five years or so...
    sure thing

  16. #41

  17. #42
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    "Wait, there's more!" -- Cousin Vinnie

    Pfizer Connecticut R&D

    In 2008, workers at pharmaceutical giant Pfizer's New London and Groton (Connecticut) research and development campus raised the alarm: They were being replaced by Indian workers on H-1B visas and forced to train their replacements. Those outsourced workers were scheduled to return to India, where they will run the same systems as their U.S. counterparts, albeit at a cheaper rate and with diminished benefits. The move was part of an outsourcing agreement signed in 2005 between Pfizer, Infosys Technologies and Satyam Computer Services.


    Molina Healthcare


    In 2010, Molina Healthcare announced it was laying off much of its staff. The announcement took place on the same day the U.S. government approved forty H-1B visa applications for the company; a lawsuit and legal battle ensued. The suit alleged that the fired employees, all of whom were U.S. citizens or green card holders, were fired as a cost-cutting measure so they could be replaced by cheaper, less-experienced foreign workers, according to the Boston Globe. The fired Molina employees were earning an average of $75,000 a year, plus benefits; the new workers, brought over to work on H-1B visas, earned $50,000, with no benefits


    Infosys and Tata

    Noticed a pattern, yet? The same large outsourcing firms keep cropping up in relation to these scandals. As Ron Hira, an Economic Policy Ins ute research associate and an associate professor of public policy at Howard University outlines in this blog for the Economic Policy Ins ute:

    "These two India-based IT firms specialize in outsourcing and offshoring, are major publicly traded companies with a combined market value of about $115 billion, and are the top two H-1B employers in the United States. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2013, Infosys ranked first with 6,269 H-1B pe ions approved by the government, and Tata ranked second with 6,193 … these leading offshore outsourcing firms use the H-1B program to replace American workers and to facilitate the offshoring of American jobs … they don't use the H-1B visa as a way to alleviate a shortage of STEM-educated U.S. workers; they use it primarily to cut labor costs."

    http://www.itworld.com/article/29460...12db4cb#slide1




  18. #43
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    slightly related, on the H2 program:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarri...s-f#.ylaoj4ZG5

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