Lakers: Drafted a PG in a league where PGs have the least impact.

[DAF86]

Further point on the Triangle. Derek Rose didn't like it because it "took the ball out of his hands," and he could play his typical PG style of driving, dribbling, and creating off the pick-and-roll.



And that's exactly how all the top perimeter players in the league start the offense now, thus it being a "PG's league."

Again, your problem comes from the fact that you think being the ball handler in a pick and roll situation is strictly a PG related play, when in fact every kind of perimeter player has been put in that position before.

Coaches don't say: "oh, you are the PG, so you are going to run the pick and roll". No, it doesn't work like that. If your PG is Jacque Vaughn, and your SG is Manu Ginóbili, you are going to give the pick and roll situations to Manu Ginóbili, not to ing Jacque Vaughn.

[midnightpulp]

I would say the trinagle is more about organizing pieces and setting a structure than "ball movement". The triangle can get pretty stagnant with a lot of looking and standing around for role players. A system like the Princeton offense is more about "ball movement".

The drving on the tringle offense came from the isolations that this system created, or are you now going to tell me that guys like Jordan and Pippen didn't drive to the basket?

I do agree that there isn't much room for typical plays like a pick and roll, but then again, many times Phil Jackson teams would go away from the triangle offense and just run some basic pick and rolls. I'm sure many Lakers fans here can attest to that.

And then again, how many teams had PG's that attacked the basket and ran pick and rolls time and time again? You won't confuse most PG's of that era (like Avery Johnson, Eric Show, Charlie Ward, Chris Child, Derek Fisher, etc) with driving threats, tbh. Were they not PG's because they didn't have these features?

The Triangle is all about passing. It's why Rose and that Knicks starting lineup didn't like it. From that Rose article:

The Triangle involves a lot of cutting, passing, screens, and high Bball IQ and most of all, PATIENCE. The starting five for the NYK is not patient enough to do this, but the second group, however, is. Rose wants to get buckets and by that being said, he isn’t going to just settle for passing the rock all day without driving to the basket at least 10 to 11 times in one game.

Just because a wing dribble-drives doesn't make him a PG. Gary Payton like to post-up. Guess that makes him a center. Running a few pick and rolls doesn't make the offense built around it nor does it make the players who run it effective pick-and-roll players over the long term. Avery Johnson was one of the fastest players in the league and was the Spurs best penetrator in those days. There was Kevin Johnson, Zeke, Hardaway, Strickland, Kenny Anderson, the list goes on of players who like to dribble and create off the dribble for themselves and teammates.

[midnightpulp]

Again, your problem comes from the fact that you think being the ball handler in a pick and roll situation is strictly a PG related play, when in fact every kind of perimeter player has been put in that position before.

Coaches don't say: "oh, you are the PG, so you are going to run the pick and roll". No, it doesn't work like that. If your PG is Jacque Vaughn, and your SG is Manu Ginóbili, you are going to give the pick and roll situations to Manu Ginóbili, not to ing Jacque Vaughn.

PGs run it the most effectively. Manu over Vaughn is an exception, not the rule. If it's between Manu and Tony Parker, I'm taking Tony Parker. If it's between Durant and Curry, you know the answer. Lillard or McCollum? Obvious. Of course every perimeter has occasionally run the play, doesn't mean they can do it long term. And now that it's become the most important play in basketball, what type of players are teams going to prioritize now? A Ray Allen who can run it "okay" some of the time, or a dribbling PG who can spam it every possession?

[DAF86]

More than "a PG's league", I would say that the phrase that best describes today's NBA style is "positionless basketball". Everybody is a playmaker and everybody defends every position.

That's why the Warriors are so ahead of everybody (besides talent). They don't have one big ball-hogger ala Harden, Lebron or Westbrook. They all share the ball and take turns as playmakers and off ball players, as well as having the versatily to switch 1 through 5 on defense.

[midnightpulp]

Sure, but not specifically for doing "PG stuff". Actually I would argue that his gravity as an off-ball player is even more relevant than him just dribbling the ball up, getting a screen and launching a 30 footer.

I don't think so. Do you see the havoc and spacing Curry creates when the ball is in his hands and he's dribbling into a pick? The entire defense is sucked in, which is why he walks in so many layups. At least when he's "off ball," the ball is out of his hands. Furthermore, Curry spots up only 11.3% of the time, so his off ball work doesn't really conclude in him taking a shot "created" by others. Draymond spots up 25% of the time. And typically, the PG has one of the lowest spot up percentages on the team. He's the conductor of that offense. Assists are irrelevant, always have been.

[Arcadian]

it's been a SF's league for a decade now, the pg narrative is pretty laughable, and it started and ended with Derrick Rose's MVP year.

How about Curry's back-to-back MVP years?

I actually agree that a versatile forward is the most valuable type of player, but Rose is a straw man...

[DAF86]

PGs run it the most effectively. Manu over Vaughn is an exception, not the rule. If it's between Manu and Tony Parker, I'm taking Tony Parker. If it's between Durant and Curry, you know the answer. Lillard or McCollum? Obvious. Of course every perimeter has occasionally run the play, doesn't mean they can do it long term. And now that it's become the most important play in basketball, what type of players are teams going to prioritize now? A Ray Allen who can run it "okay" some of the time, or a dribbling PG who can spam it every possession?

I don't know, besides Curry, the most coveted players are Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, etc. So you tell me.

[midnightpulp]

More than "a PG's league", I would say that the phrase that best describes today's NBA style is "positionless basketball". Everybody is a playmaker and everybody defends every position.

That's why the Warriors are so ahead of everybody (besides talent). They don't have one big ball-hogger ala Harden, Lebron or Westbrook. They all share the ball and take turns as playmakers and off ball players, as well as having the versatily to switch 1 through 5 on defense.

We're moving toward it, yes, but in this transition it's a PG's league. I don't mean "midget's league," but PGs have always been the best players on the team in terms of all-around basketball skills, only traditionally limited by their height. If we're going to move to positionless basketball, yeah, all players will need to have a range of PG skills (those 5 tools). I argue against the movement because basketball is unique in it being a sport where a variety of heights have different roles while also being about the only sport a player 6'10" and over can play at a professional level. Season by season, bigs will slowly get slowly shorter and shorter until everyone is basically a 6'6" "5 tool player". Guys too much taller will be limited by their physiology in effectively learning all of the 5 tools. I know Davis, Towns, etc have had some good seasons, but those kind of players are endangered and easily exposed in the playoffs. And the evolution was totally manufactured by the league, not a natural progression of "better talent." They league went into panic mode following the low ratings of grindy, post-centric, slow teams like the Spurs and Pistons responsible for poorly rated NBA Finals and thus contrived it to "open up the game" for perimeter players.

[DAF86]

I don't think so. Do you see the havoc and spacing Curry creates when the ball is in his hands and he's dribbling into a pick? The entire defense is sucked in, which is why he walks in so many layups. At least when he's "off ball," the ball is out of his hands. Furthermore, Curry spots up only 11.3% of the time, so his off ball work doesn't really conclude in him taking a shot "created" by others. Draymond spots up 25% of the time. And typically, the PG has one of the lowest spot up percentages on the team. He's the conductor of that offense. Assists are irrelevant, always have been.

That "spot up" stat only takes into consideration when a player shoots the ball. It doesn't take into consideration all the times that somebody is left wide ass open because two guys went with Curry after a screen. Of course teams will try to prevent spot up shots for the best Shooter of all time, that's precisely why playing Curry off ball so much works so wonderfully.

[midnightpulp]

I don't know, besides Curry, the most coveted players are Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, etc. So you tell me.

Giannis ranked 17th in RPM. He can't shoot yet, and will forever be a 2nd round exit unless he learns to (or gets his Curry). Davis? No one fears bigs anymore. A team will take 30 points on 15-25 shooting all day. Big centric offenses just don't pressure defenses like they used to. He's also ranked 8th in RPM. If this were 2005, he'd be far and away ahead in every metric known to man. Kawhi is too mid-post/mid-range focused and has just average ball handling skills. I'm not saying these aren't elite players, they're just not players you build around anymore. They need their "Currys," so to speak. And yes, in any given NBA season/era, there's really only 3 or 4 players you can build around. They're all playing right now.