Green
Bowen
At this point, I'm pretty much convinced you don't remember that series beyond the lineup and the result. The way the Spurs guarded James was VERY different than how they guarded him in 2014 (though more similar to how they guarded him in 2013). There's no way you can watch that video and believe that Bowen shut James down in even a token way.
It's evidence of low standards for defense. Because Bowen didn't stop them, you and other believe they couldn't be stopped. But nowadays, the Spurs are more than capable to significantly impeding the best offensive players. I think if people had known what was coming up, there's now way they would have retired Bruce's number.
No he didn't. He was dirty/physical with Nash, and I'm sure fans ate that up, but Nash pretty much went about his business from a statistical standpoint. Not inefficiently or bogged down by turnovers, either.What?!? GTFOOH.He gave Nash nightmares.
They didn't retire Bruce's number because of his stats, dude. Dude is and will continue to be considered a Spurs defensive legend regardless of how well DG and KL do.
Again, no one is denying Bowen is hyped.
It's just silly thinking because KL/DG are great, Bowen suddenly wouldn't be considered great during 03-07. Last I checked, he's got two more rings than either of those fellas and has played a lot more games in a Spurs uniform than either of them. DG will be immensely lucky to achieve what Bruce did in his career, and he'll have been paid a lot more to do it if he does.
Op was probably too young to see Bruce play in his prime a whole season tbh
Buthe generates traffic
NASF anti-Bruce shtick basically amounts to this.
Green.
There is a fairly solid argument that Bowen was a better defender, but it's hard to separate out his ability form him being allowed to be dirty.
RPM / RAPM also have this clearly in the DG camp
Has DG as
+5.41 14-15 (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/2)
+ 3.51(13-14) (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/2)
While Jeremias Engelmann's old site has DG as:
+2.1 in 2012 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2012.html)
+0.4 in 2013 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html)
+1.3 in 2014 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html)
Bowen, by RAPM was
+1 in 2003 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2003.html )
+0.5 in 2004 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2004.html)
-0.8 in 2005 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2005.html)
-1 in 2006 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html)
- 0.4 in 2007 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html)
Noting all the standard complaints about one number stats (Bias, depend on cir stance, don't tell the how...)
That is likely to be the one stat, where Bowen might show up well overall. His defence is really good in those figures. His D figures for a wing are great.
But even though he could shoot 40% from 3, he could only do this under very specific cir stances (Corner, open) so he didn't offer the same spacing advantages that Green offers the Spurs now. Green has more value.
I get that DG isn't hyped as part of the Big 4 as Bowen was. That doesn't mean he's not a better player.
Bonner has more rings than Diaw, but that doesn't make him better. This argument is silly at this point. I haven't seen a single good argument from Bowen that doesn't rely on people receding into nostalgia and not looking objectively at the past. There are plenty of games people can watch from that era (and most of us were Spurs fans back then -- shocker). Bowen lovers don't have a monopoly on the past.
It's just that you and others sound like old folks who keep trying to argue their childhoods were better because of how cheap everything was. Bowen guarded the best opposing perimeter player. But he wasn't nearly as good at doing that as people remember. Green and Leonard are better at it. The fact that they don't typically guard Dirk means nothing. If the Spurs had prime Bowen instead of Green in 2014, Splitter still would have been on Dirk and LMA, while Bruce would have struggled to get minutes over Beli. I can appreciate Bruce being the best the Spurs could do given their financial restrictions in that era, but that doesn't take away from the fact that his overall impact is overrated.NASF anti-Bruce shtick basically amounts to this.
I voted Bowen, only because of the hype of course.
He didn't say "shut down Lebon", he said "Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron", and that's exactly what that video shows. Dare him to shoot, stay in front of him, and if he drives, funnel him to the help defender and don't foul.
That was the gameplan, and he executed as well as you can ask him to execute it. Lebron was a different player back then and the Spurs were simply a different team too.
That's what our defense looked like when Tim was a little younger and rugged Oberto was paired with him.
It worked well enough to hold a 25/8/8 guy to 14/7/4, and keep a team that averaged almost 97 ppg under 80 pts.
I still think it's a mediocre thread cause right now it's not even much of a discussion, it's Bruce and not even close, first Green should grow a pair, stop be too cute, lacking thoughness and needing Pop to babysitter him...
Last edited by kobyz; 07-22-2015 at 01:05 PM.
lol at everyone overlook the leadership element of Bruce, such a great leader, also his intangibles and toughness, was like Draymond Green is now... About defense is not even close, Bruce was master also one on one and also team defense with his rotations, also much more clutch and consistent as a player, would have never let CP3 that easy drive to his right in last play of game 7...
It has to do with the fact that he was the selfless guy that didn't get his number called on offense, he had to dance all night with the best player on the other team, and he embraced his role and executed it. And he did that over and over, night in and night out. He took pride in it. It's hard to find players like that in this league. Pop is never going to tell Danny, Kawhi or Bowen to "shut down X player". He's going to devise a gameplan based on how we do things at any given time, and expects the players to execute it. It's going to be on the whole team to get it done, and this hasn't changed with Danny or Kawhi. Sometimes the gameplan doesn't work, sometimes the players don't execute.
Bruce Bowen has a slight edge on defense but because he's somewhat doubfful of Duncan's defensive value, I find it unrespectful. He also has a reputation of being a dirty player.
Danny Green is not as good but he is unique. He steals, & blocks shots, (& he loves Duncan & Manu more
Plus I think he's one of the few who can really limit or defend Stephen Curry. .
So, my vote goes to Green..
A few thoughts:
- Whilst the advanced stats are in Danny's favor he does not have the responsibility of guarding the no.1 perimeter option every night like Bruce did which should be taken into account. Bruce also made the player he was guarding expend so much more energy then usual because of his ability to deny the ball . Guys were often well out of their comfort zone by the time they were able to make the catch.
- Neither player could score off the dribble (although Bruce did develop a reliable 15 -20ft jumper after pump faking on a hard close out), finish in the paint or hit 3's from the top of the line. Danny has a quicker release and can also shoot threes from the angles whilst Bowen was strictly in the corners. Both players relied on teammates for offense and just about all threes for both guys were assisted.
- From the opening tip Bruce brought such a high level of intensity to the team on the defensive end every night. The team used to feed of his energy and you can find many quotes by players explaining how he set the tone for the team nightly with aggressive style & effort and was always making sure guy were in the right spots, constantly screaming out play calls and helping ensure players stayed engaged.
Last edited by ceds; 07-22-2015 at 06:24 AM.
At least you admit it.
You act like Green isn't humble and willing to sacrifice for the team.
He called Bowen a "Lebron stopper" in the post that started mine and his disagreement. And if you look at that and think Bowen had any control over what Lebron was doing, I have nothing to say to that. He wasn't a turnstile on defense, but he certainly wasn't doing an exceptional job on him. , Diaw did the same level of work in 2013, and Boris isn't near the perimeter defender Bowen was (let alone Green or Leonard)
Looks like Bruce got the better of VC to me.
Bowen should have been FMVP in '05. He was the only one to be consistent and play great every game.
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