Sean and Tim post-game comments

[dabom]

4 missed shots 2 player fouls and literally zero of anything else. But he better than Manu and Kawhi this game. WOW.

I'm done.

[Chinook]

His best game of his life is an average game to normal players. Go back and watch Pop put Kawhi defend Westbrook which I don't think Pop had done before and watch Manu too. Stop your agenda please.

We've been through this same already. Our discussion is on here somewhere. Unlike you, I actually did go back and watch the game at your behest, and I charted out every possession Westbrook touched the ball. Westbrook actually made a ton of good passes in that game, and his teammates clanked open jumper after open jumper. You had Jackson missing open threes, Ibaka bricking open 15-footers from the short corner. It's clear Pop told the team to not let Russ into the paint (Westbrook was shadowed by a big on every drive), and Russ just took what Kawhi gave him and should have racked up about seven or eight more assists.

[SAGirl]

Hasn't +/- over the course of a season been fairly accurate over the years? For example, guys like Timmy/Manu/Kawhi are always near the top and known cancers like Enrique near the bottom?

Bonner was really the only anomaly but I agree with Chinook that the effect of his ability to space the floor has always been underrated.

I think over the course of a season it's different, and obviously analytics and other stats are adjusted to try to more accurately reflect each individual impact.

In single games, though it's a simple stat that just reflects overall how many points the team lost or won while that player was in the game. That is influenced by so many things including teammate play, and the other team getting hot.

[Chinook]

You're shook. Stop embarrassing yourself too. Matt bonner a better game than Kawhi and Manu. WOW.

No, I just have a good memory and know that you're awful to talk to if it's not in line with your agenda. I have tried before, repeatedly, and that's the conclusion I came up with.

[dabom]

We've been through this same already. Our discussion is on here somewhere. Unlike you, I actually did go back and watch the game at your behest, and I charted out every possession Westbrook touched the ball. Westbrook actually made a ton of good passes in that game, and his teammates clanked open jumper after open jumper. You had Jackson missing open threes, Ibaka bricking open 15-footers from the short corner. It's clear Pop told the team to not let Russ into the paint (Westbrook was shadowed by a big on every drive), and Russ just took what Kawhi gave him and should have racked up about seven or eight more assists.

Go back and watch the ing game again if you think Matt bonner played better than Kawhi and Manu.

[Chinook]

Go back and watch the ing game again if you think Matt bonner played better than Kawhi and Manu.

I never said he played better than those guys. He was supposed to be a weak link, and he more than held his own. Shane Battier didn't outplay Lebron in Game Seven of the 2013 Finals, but he was the biggest reason why the Heat took that game.

[dabom]

I never said he played better than those guys. He was supposed to be a weak link, and he more than held his own. Shane Battier didn't outplay Lebron in Game Seven of the 2013 Finals, but he was the biggest reason why the Heat took that game.

Playing to average standards does not make you a reason why the Spurs won. That just makes you a CoJo type player.

[Chinook]

Playing to average standards does not make you a reason why the Spurs won. That just makes you a CoJo type player.

If you think holding Durant and Ibaka to 2/13 is average, then I don't know what you consider good. Again, the fact that you don't know how well Bonner played shows you don't actually remember that series.

[dabom]

If you think holding Durant and Ibaka to 2/13 is average, then I don't know what you consider good. Again, the fact that you don't know how well Bonner played shows you don't actually remember that series.

And danny green held Durant to low %shots too. Westbrook scored 21 points after scoring something like 45 points and maybe a triple double game 4. Kawhi was the best player on that floor in game 5 followed by Manu. If you think Bonner holding anyone to 2/13 while doing absolutely nothing else is a top reason for winning you are a dumbass. Go back and watch the ing game please.

[Chinook]

And danny green held Durant to low %shots too. Westbrook scored 21 points after scoring something like 45 points and maybe a triple double game 4. Kawhi was the best player on that floor in game 5 followed by Manu. If you think Bonner holding anyone to 2/13 while doing absolutely nothing else is a top reason for winning you are a dumbass. Go back and watch the ing game please.

All right. I gave you another chance.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

People who think Bonner somehow disproves plus-minus are clueless. The fact that Bonner carries an elite score in that stat despite being at best a mediocre player underscores how powerful his position is. Bonner headlined an entire movement as a stretch-four. He was one of the first guys to show that having a shooting big could work, and furthermore that it can run a twin-towers lineup off the court. He's the reason why Memphis is a dinosaur, who finally seems to have started the change with Green starting the last game.

Plus-minus doesn't suggest that Bonner is a great player. It does suggest that he's a match-up problem.

A very easily gameplanned matchup problem.

[Chinook]

What's the adjustment?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What's the adjustment?

Hard properly executed closeout with a prescribed spacing depending on the player which he tried to counter with that dribble to the wing hook. It's easy to muck things up when he gets inside. Because of his low release point and windup its easier to get to his shot and teams just stashed whoever out there. The corpse of Mike Miller could make the closeout.

[Chinook]

Sounds like you're advocating small-ball.

[SAGirl]

Bonner was more valuable in the past, when many teams had the traditional 2 big lineup and the pace/space revolution had not overtaken the league. Right now teams are really going perimeter with their tallest SF at the 4, or just having their own stretch big who is a guy 6'10 much like Bonner, who can shoot the 3, but also do many other things (like rebound, pass, shoot from mid-range, etc) better than Bonner can at this stage of his career. For example, a guy like Anderson can guard Bonner easily at this stage, and yet Bonner won't be able to do squat against Anderson. Anderson may shoot poorly, but that is just bc he's been off shooting more than not.

This early, even Boris had two stinkers of a game in a row against truly perimeter oriented lineups in Memphis (w/o Zbo) and the Suns. A level of coasting was in order for Boris I think, but he also put the ball on the floor a number of times and had it taken away by smaller/faster players.

Bonner could have been a plus against Z-bo, but there are few of those teams in the league nowadays.

[dabom]

Bonner can't defend the post or rebound. He would get eaten alive.

[KaiRMD1]

Apo beat you to it, old sport...

[SAGirl]

Manu's opinion on the +/- stat in a particular game: