did we really play okc better or are they just playing even better against GS?

[ViceCity86]

So far

Spurs 101.3
Thunder 100.8

Thunder 112.5
Warriors 104.8

[Hoops Czar]

So I guess he has Tony Porker-itis

Until you start coming up with intelligent takes, I'm going to start calling you KiwiStorm because like the real deal, your best takes come during the regular season. Curry's not 34 and he's moving fine with and without the ball. The problem with penetrating guards is once they get their blocked, they tend to think twice about the way they approach the paint and many times, end up altering their shot in a negative way. 16 blocked shots with over 2/3's of their overall shots in the paint being contested over the last two games will cause players to miss layups.

[Kawhitstorm]

Until you start coming up with intelligent takes, I'm going to start calling you KiwiStorm because like the real deal, your best takes come during the regular season. Curry's not 34 and he's moving fine with and without the ball. The problem with penetrating guards is once they get their blocked, they tend to think twice about the way they approach the paint and many times, end up altering their shot in a negative way. 16 blocked shots with over 2/3's of their overall shots in the paint being contested over the last two games will cause players to miss layups.

Same thing happened to PRIME Porker against OKC in 2012 when Brooks put Thabo on him after he torched 'em in Gm 2 ala Curry.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Actually, it does help when you make your shots. As evident in game 1. The gameplan was fine. Even with the spurs all shooting below their averages, they were in fighting chance each loss. The shots were there, the players didn't capitalize. On the other side, the thunder role players made the most of their opportunities.

Game 6 was a massacre while the Spurs had no chance in Game 4 after the Thunderefs finally got the crowd and refs into the game roughly one quarter of the way into the 4th period.

[Mnky]

Game 6 was a massacre while the Spurs had no chance in Game 4 after the Thunderefs finally got the crowd and refs into the game roughly one quarter of the way into the 4th period.

So admittedly, game 4 was an anomaly and in game 6 they had a strong comeback but went flat again in the 4. Even if we count game 6 anyway, that's one game.

[TD 21]

Maybe it's because they're younger, so it often goes unnoticed, but the Warriors aren't all that athletic. Like the Spurs of the majority of the past half decade, they're heavily reliant on ball and player movement. The Thunder's defensive IQ/precision has now caught up to their vastly superior athleticism and the result is, they're swallowing the Warriors whole.

Hopefully, if/when the Thunder finish the job, in game 6, the Warriors, the majority of the media and closet fans, who thumbed their noses up at everyone who didn't relentlessly slobber over the Warriors for the past two years and acted as if they were jealous, in denial, antiquated or some combinations thereof, are humbled.

[Beaverfuzz]

Spurs match up much better vs the Thunder, and that's with Porker as the PG.

[phxspurfan]

I think if the Spurs and Thunder were to play another series right now the Thunder would win in 5. No matter what, Spurs weren't going to have any answer for the size of Adams/Kanter without changes to the roster.

This Warriors series really solidifies that the Thunder were the better team.

Shows that all that matters is peaking at the right time. All year I felt Warriors were like 07 Suns, peaking in the Regular Season. Unfortunately Spurs also peaked in the reg season as well (before Duncan got hurt).

[phxspurfan]

The 2014 Heat were ranked 24th in defensive rebounding percentage. The Spurs were ranked 4th. Those Heat always had trouble stopping players in the post, which is why Spoelstra conceived of that swarming defense to compensate for their lack of size. And in 2013, Parker was chewing them up with penetration (Danny and Neal got all those great looks off Parker penetration) until he strained the hamstring.

Of course GS is better than the SSOL Suns, but some of the flaws are similar in how both teams relied on pace and long range shooting in lieu of controlling the paint.

SSOL Suns had prime Shawn Marion and prime Amare. They did fine with rebounds and points in the paint. They just didn't get clutch performances like we got and got Donaghy'd out of the series (and of course made stupid choices like running onto the court).

SSOL Suns was the best Suns team ever (better than MVP Sir Charles/KJ/Majerle even) but 07 Spurs also had prime big 3 + Bowen, big shot Rob, and the ball bounced the Spurs way. We couldn't stop the Nash/Amare pick n roll, but Amare alone couldn't win that series for them.

2 time MVP Nash btw was no slouch, even compared to Curry. He was 50/40/90 and a better playmaker, by a little bit. He just didn't have unlimited range like Curry. But he was more clutch than Curry in the postseason.

[Seventyniner]

Key phrase "Best Chance".

It's rare for teams that lack an inside offensive presence (whether that inside scoring presence is a penetrator or post player), an inside defensive presence, and rebounding to win the le. The exceptions off the top of my head are the 2011 Mavs (they still had Chandler, who was a great paint anchor during that run. Dirk also played more in the post, as well) and the 2015 Warriors.

There's no "revisionist history" here. Name all the teams that won les who weren't above average in those three areas?

The 2013 Heat were 23rd in total rebound%, obv well below average.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/total-rebounding-percentage?date=2013-06-20
For comparison: 2015 Warriors 16th, 2014 Spurs 15th, 2012 Heat 12th. No correlation at all for the last 6 years. Teamrankings doesn't go back past 2011 though, and I know the 2009-2010 Lakers were huge on rebounding (especially offensive) like this year's Thunder.


I don't know how tight your definitions of "inside offensive presence" and "inside defensive presence" are. I'm not sure Bosh counts as either; he did much of his damage as a small-ball 5 that could space the floor and guard the perimeter on switches. It's hard to imagine a team that has a complete zero for both of those. Shaq, Duncan, Pau surely count and that covers nearly all the rings since 1999.


I can't even agree with "best chance" though. The Grizzlies formula mostly failing in the playoffs plus the Warriors winning the le last year makes me lean away from such absolutes. A damn good team is a damn good team, regardless of if they prioritize defense, rebounding, shooting, or whatever.


I'll admit that "revisionist history" was the wrong term for me to use. But it seems that you're just proclaiming that the strength of the best team of the moment (OC) is what the entire league (or even just the Spurs) needs to do. Would you change your mind if the Warriors come back and win the series? Especially if it's playing their own way? Or if the Thunder lose in the Finals?

[phxspurfan]

Well put



This^ tbh. Big bodies and length has always bothered Curry and the Worriers. This is no surprise. From the Bucks to the Nets to the Pistons to OKC they all have tons of it and love to pound the paint. Unlike the Spurs, they all gave the Worriers real problems during the regular season. Granted, OKC lost all 3 games but not before leading by double digits and melting down in the 4th.

Heat too. Whiteside took it to them IIRC in the reg season. GS won I believe but they were shook that game too.

[tholdren]

spurs could have won if gregg would have told kl and lma to stop being jump shooters and not played david west. not too hard to figure out, really

[SAGirl]

Although I agree that Pop relied way too much on what are effectively role players in Duncan and gino and even Tony, who played his role the worse, This team was definitely capable of a deep playoff run. The role players had a horrible shooting series. They all shot below average, and though the thunder have a good defense, spurs were missing wide open shots constantly. A poor shooting series will do that against any opponent. Spurs were keeping the thunder relatively in check defensively until they lost their will to fight due to the bad shooting.

Bad shooting was a result of LMA and Kawhi having too heavy of a burden with little support, which is why 2 guys by themselves don't win. Both the only ones tasked with imposing their will and scoring against set defenses, plus the boarding the boxing out, the defense, etc. It was too much for them without help. Danny was the only one consistently making plays. Tony only had a couple of good games, Tim only showed up for his retirement game, Manu is done, etc. With even one of those guys in a better state, yea. I have said with 2015 Timmy we win that series, same as with early season, or 2014 Manu... but those guys are gone. Some here thought Kawhi and/or LMA should have played 44-48 minutes. It would not have mattered IMO (but to each his own, opinions are like a butthole everyone has one, so I have mine too).

The bench was terrible scoring bc they had no inside presence, there was no big to run a damn quality PnR, Manu cannot turn a corner and get into the paint. He has maybe added 3 years to his career in his twilight bc he is still as superb PnR passer, but he did not have a fricking competent big to run it with this season. That might be more significant than Anderson who was a roleplayer tasked with defense for 3-5 minutes and standing in a corner. By the way he wasn't open, bc everyone in the bench could be guarded one on one. The bench could not score without LMA and Kawhi at all, and I have seen numbers that indicate that Kawhi's efficiency was significantly worse when playing without LMA. I wonder why? From having to carry a motherfricking TOSB bench is why!

We didn't have the depth quite honestly and I wonder why guys were missing shots bc over half the roster is done.

[Mnky]

Bad shooting was a result of LMA and Kawhi having too heavy of a burden with little support, which is why 2 guys by themselves don't win. Both the only ones tasked with imposing their will and scoring against set defenses, plus the boarding the boxing out, the defense, etc. It was too much for them without help. Danny was the only one consistently making plays. Tony only had a couple of good games, Tim only showed up for his retirement game, Manu is done, etc. With even one of those guys in a better state, yea. I have said with 2015 Timmy we win that series, same as with early season, or 2014 Manu... but those guys are gone. Some here thought Kawhi and/or LMA should have played 44-48 minutes. It would not have mattered IMO (but to each his own, opinions are like a butthole everyone has one, so I have mine too).

The bench was terrible scoring bc they had no inside presence, there was no big to run a damn quality PnR, Manu cannot turn a corner and get into the paint. He has maybe added 3 years to his career in his twilight bc he is still as superb PnR passer, but he did not have a fricking competent big to run it with this season. That might be more significant than Anderson who was a roleplayer tasked with defense for 3-5 minutes and standing in a corner. By the way he wasn't open, bc everyone in the bench could be guarded one on one. The bench could not score without LMA and Kawhi at all, and I have seen numbers that indicate that Kawhi's efficiency was significantly worse when playing without LMA. I wonder why? From having to carry a motherfricking TOSB bench is why!

We didn't have the depth quite honestly and I wonder why guys were missing shots bc over half the roster is done.

Bruh, you seem like it still hurts...
We got next year homie.

[SAGirl]

Bruh, you seem like it still hurts...
We got next year homie.

cheers thanks!
nah I am quite fine and enjoying OKC's run but I am kind of against all the blame Pop, LMA, Kawhi or Anderson crew. Losing proposition I know. I just think a lot of old timers don't want to admit the big 3 were probably the most to blame. Nothing we can do bc its father time, but why not admit it and instead blame Pop, blame the two young stars who even had us in position to win those games to begin with and Anderson who played 3-5 minutes in real games with the limited role of providing some defense and standing in a corner? Nah! Those different crews are just deflecting.

[midnightpulp]

The 2013 Heat were 23rd in total rebound%, obv well below average.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/total-rebounding-percentage?date=2013-06-20
For comparison: 2015 Warriors 16th, 2014 Spurs 15th, 2012 Heat 12th. No correlation at all for the last 6 years. Teamrankings doesn't go back past 2011 though, and I know the 2009-2010 Lakers were huge on rebounding (especially offensive) like this year's Thunder.


I don't know how tight your definitions of "inside offensive presence" and "inside defensive presence" are. I'm not sure Bosh counts as either; he did much of his damage as a small-ball 5 that could space the floor and guard the perimeter on switches. It's hard to imagine a team that has a complete zero for both of those. Shaq, Duncan, Pau surely count and that covers nearly all the rings since 1999.


I can't even agree with "best chance" though. The Grizzlies formula mostly failing in the playoffs plus the Warriors winning the le last year makes me lean away from such absolutes. A damn good team is a damn good team, regardless of if they prioritize defense, rebounding, shooting, or whatever.


I'll admit that "revisionist history" was the wrong term for me to use. But it seems that you're just proclaiming that the strength of the best team of the moment (OC) is what the entire league (or even just the Spurs) needs to do. Would you change your mind if the Warriors come back and win the series? Especially if it's playing their own way? Or if the Thunder lose in the Finals?

Defense rebounding percentage is more important than offensive rebounding percentage, since the former typically defines how well you are limiting second chance opportunities. The Spurs could've been a great offensive rebounding team if they chose to, but Pop elected to go with the strategy of not crashing the boards so the team could get back on defense faster to better defend the fast break. I'm not dismissing offensive rebounding, the repeat Lakers won les on the strength of it, but defensive rebounding percentage seems to correlate stronger with post-season success than o-rebounding. Go to bbref and see for yourself. The teams with the highest defensive rebounding percentage will also generally rank highly in SRS. Another strong correlation is 0-3 feet shooting percentage.

Even though the Heat were below average in two of the "crucial" areas, they were best team in the league at attacking the paint with Lebron and Wade (best 0-3 feet percentage in the league). Furthermore, those assholes should've been 1-and-done, but per par for our Spurs, we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. That's why there's always "exceptions," because of chokejobs, hot streaks, etc, but generally, a team whose greatest strength is outside shooting but who are below average in those areas doesn't usually fare well in the post season.

If Golden State can pull it out, I might change my mind. , my mind was already changed, since I thought they were pretty much the GOAT team, with these playoffs just being a glorified victory lap for them, but the Thunder are showing us that size and speed still kill, and possibly still kill more effectively than shooting 40 threes a game. Furthermore, they caught a break last season. I think if Irving had played, Cleveland wins the le.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

SSOL Suns had prime Shawn Marion and prime Amare. They did fine with rebounds and points in the paint. They just didn't get clutch performances like we got and got Donaghy'd out of the series (and of course made stupid choices like running onto the court).

SSOL Suns was the best Suns team ever (better than MVP Sir Charles/KJ/Majerle even) but 07 Spurs also had prime big 3 + Bowen, big shot Rob, and the ball bounced the Spurs way. We couldn't stop the Nash/Amare pick n roll, but Amare alone couldn't win that series for them.

2 time MVP Nash btw was no slouch, even compared to Curry. He was 50/40/90 and a better playmaker, by a little bit. He just didn't have unlimited range like Curry. But he was more clutch than Curry in the postseason.

Nash was the best player in the NBA two years in a row, similar to Curry. Suns just had rotten luck in the playoffs. If they had gotten to play 2 injured contenders and 2 weak teams all during the same playoff run, they would have definitely won a le too.

[Mnky]

cheers thanks!
nah I am quite fine and enjoying OKC's run but I am kind of against all the blame Pop, LMA, Kawhi or Anderson crew. Losing proposition I know. I just think a lot of old timers don't want to admit the big 3 were probably the most to blame. Nothing we can do bc its father time, but why not admit it and instead blame Pop, blame the two young stars who even had us in position to win those games to begin with and Anderson who played 3-5 minutes in real games with the limited role of providing some defense and standing in a corner? Nah! Those different crews are just deflecting.

Definitely need a youth upgrade, if not, just better role players. Big 3 for outplayed in all areas.

I'm enjoying OKC drop a deuce on people as well. Couldn't tell you how many people on here argued against Westbrook and how much of a negative he was for his team. or how beta Durant was and how he can't win. This is the first time they've had legitimate depth.
Couch analysts and their statistics.. never touched a basketball in their life, believing they know the game better than professionals.

Kawhi and LMA is a great core to build around though. Excited to see where they go. Can't wait till draft night. Likely as ever to make some moves if they're looking to unload players. We also will have some interesting choice at 29 with all the players declaring early this year.

[Uriel]

Games 2 and 5 were decided by the slimmest of margins. If we had won either of those games, we probably would've won the series.

OKC is a great team and they're playing their best basketball of the season at the exact right time, but let's not pretend that they were light years better than us.

[hater]

I actually think game 4 was so winnable. We were dominating them but Durant decided to go in raw. He looked like TMac vs Dpurs out there.

[DPG21920]

^^^ Admission OKC just found a groove defensively as a team, have size athletes and Russ and Roberson were tiring him the F out.

[ceperez]

Games 2 and 5 were decided by the slimmest of margins. If we had won either of those games, we probably would've won the series.

OKC is a great team and they're playing their best basketball of the season at the exact right time, but let's not pretend that they were light years better than us.

I agree, Spurs could have beaten OKC despite not getting a lot of mileage from the bench and not have a good game from Duncan for most of the games.

Problem moving forward is OKC role players are young and will get better. Spurs role players are old and will only get worse.

[kobyz]

Spurs can't win close games...

[SAGirl]

Apparently so did we in our series and guys didn't knock them down whether they tire guys out with their energy forcing them to expend a lot of energy on defense, it's not a coincidence.

[DPG21920]

Apparently so did we in our series and guys didn't knock them down whether they tire guys out with their energy forcing them to expend a lot of energy on defense, it's not a coincidence.

I think a lot of time it is. Shooting can have a big variance especially over a short period of time. People get focused on the result and want to attribute it to something. Sometimes, guys miss. That doesn't mean OKC played terrible defense or anything, but beyond the eye ball test, both SA & GS missed makeable looks.

It happens.