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  1. #101
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I'm a River fan and have nothing but appreciation for Diego the player, tbh... who wouldn't? He gave us the ultimate prize, the World Cup, and unlike in '78, he did it on the road and was basically the ace you need to have to pull it off.

    He made us dream, be proud and excited, and ultimately delivered. And sure, he didn't win it by himself, but he was a major part. All that we watched that cup, know the suffering, and the fact that, there was always hope that Diego would pull a rabbit out of his cocaine bag...

    Diego the person is certainly debatable, but I don't have to pay attention to that. I rather remember the player, that loved to take challenges head on, and win or lose, you know he was 100% in it.

  2. #102
    Veteran dunkman's Avatar
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    Maradona (the player) was better then Messi. He was much better than anyone of his era (Matthäus, Van Basten, Gullit, Platini, Zico). It was obvious since his Argentinos Juniors days he was an exceptional talent, but he enjoyed success only when Bilardo took the NT and while playing for Napoli.

    Before that, his success with Argentina was at youth level and he couldn't help win a Copa América. He enjoyed some success with Argentinos, Boca and Barça, but he was still a promise then. The '82 Argentina team was favourite for the WC, but started losing their first game vs Belgium and in the second round group Brazil and eventual champion Italy proved better.

    After his first doping suspension, once he joined Sevilla, he wasn't the same player. He showed some limited brilliance at the '94 WC before being suspended another time. When he returned the second time with Boca, he was totally unrecognizable player. For those who saw him in the 70's and 80's it was appalling.

    He did some things exceptionally well. First it was near impossible to take him the ball and he had great vision of the field. Then he did very unpredictable plays and would make the defenders panic, he would distract 3-4 players then make a great assist. Finally he was outstanding at free kicks, live walls in the Serie A would feature unusually many players when he was about to take a FK. He would serve corners close to the small area and has made some Olympic goals if I recall right.

    He struggled but eventually silenced any critics while at Napoli or at '86 and '90 Mundiales, something that Messi wasn't able to do.

    The guy was a genius type of talent.

    Maradona, the person, is another story. It matters as he set a bad example for the youth, but there is nothing to do about.

  3. #103
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    Maradona (the player) was better then Messi. He was much better than anyone of his era (Matthäus, Van Basten, Gullit, Platini, Zico). It was obvious since his Argentinos Juniors days he was an exceptional talent, but he enjoyed success only when Bilardo took the NT and while playing for Napoli.

    Before that, his success with Argentina was at youth level and he couldn't help win a Copa América. He enjoyed some success with Argentinos, Boca and Barça, but he was still a promise then. The '82 Argentina team was favourite for the WC, but started losing their first game vs Belgium and in the second round group Brazil and eventual champion Italy proved better.

    After his first doping suspension, once he joined Sevilla, he wasn't the same player. He showed some limited brilliance at the '94 WC before being suspended another time. When he returned the second time with Boca, he was totally unrecognizable player. For those who saw him in the 70's and 80's it was appalling.

    He did some things exceptionally well. First it was near impossible to take him the ball and he had great vision of the field. Then he did very unpredictable plays and would make the defenders panic, he would distract 3-4 players then make a great assist. Finally he was outstanding at free kicks, live walls in the Serie A would feature unusually many players when he was about to take a FK. He would serve corners close to the small area and has made some Olympic goals if I recall right.

    He struggled but eventually silenced any critics while at Napoli or at '86 and '90 Mundiales, something that Messi wasn't able to do.

    The guy was a genius type of talent.

    Maradona, the person, is another story. It matters as he set a bad example for the youth, but there is nothing to do about.
    Very moving story, Messi did the same and then some more but his stupid teammates didnt help him, Soredona did nothing in the ´86 Finals vs Germany and he is the hero.
    Show me when the he was quad teamed.
    Defenders panic

  4. #104
    Veteran dunkman's Avatar
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    Very moving story, Messi did the same and then some more but his stupid teammates didnt help him, Soredona did nothing in the ´86 Finals vs Germany and he is the hero.
    Show me when the he was quad teamed.
    Defenders panic
    Check the third goal vs West Germany, Maradona gets the ball 4-5 players panic, he assists Burruchaga. Peru wasn't a bad side, it's not easy to classify from South America for the Mundial. Brazil usually classifies without problems, the rest of the teams struggle. Maradona was complaining about Reyna, not sure what happened there.

  5. #105
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    Check the third goal vs West Germany, Maradona gets the ball 4-5 players panic, he assists Burruchaga. Peru wasn't a bad side, it's not easy to classify from South America for the Mundial. Brazil usually classifies without problems, the rest of the teams struggle. Maradona was complaining about Reyna, not sure what happened there.
    Are you aware that Messi assisted 3 times in 3 finals the same player and he missed every attempt? there is no panic he only had 1 guy defending him, not 4 kicking the out of his soul.

    Peru was a joke and that guy Reyna was a complete nobody and did an excelent job, Maradona was scared as and this is not the only example, there were many other episodes of him walking the game or doing nothing after a couple of kicks.

    Argentina always classifies, excepting one time during 1969 and in 1985 it was all about Passarella and Gareca because Diego was in his ty pants phase.

    Whats gives Dona his godly status is there was no internet/giant media/twitter/youtube during those days, because if he were playing now there would be a lot of his exposed.
    And lots of people love to say he is the better player without even checking the facts.

  6. #106
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Are you aware that Messi assisted 3 times in 3 finals the same player and he missed every attempt? there is no panic he only had 1 guy defending him, not 4 kicking the out of his soul.

    Peru was a joke and that guy Reyna was a complete nobody and did an excelent job, Maradona was scared as and this is not the only example, there were many other episodes of him walking the game or doing nothing after a couple of kicks.
    Reyna actually used to kick the out of Diego. And this was after Goikoetxea almost ends Diego career with one dirty tackle. Teams were allowed to play more physical back then, tbh...

    As far as the 1st part of your post, sure, and that's not Messi's fault. You can also add that Bilardo ran circles against Martino, as a coach. Tactically, there's no comparison. Bilardo was obsessive/compulsive, but he knew how to play any team, and he knew how to use Diego's influence on the other team. This of leaving Messi alone against 3-4 players is also responsibility of the coach that doesn't know how to take advantage of that.

    And as much as I love Daniel Passarella as a River fan, he always has been un sorete. It's not surprising that Bilardo and Diego cleanup up all those gots before the '86 World Cup.

  7. #107
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    Reyna actually used to kick the out of Diego. And this was after Goikoetxea almost ends Diego career with one dirty tackle. Teams were allowed to play more physical back then, tbh...

    As far as the 1st part of your post, sure, and that's not Messi's fault. You can also add that Bilardo ran circles against Martino, as a coach. Tactically, there's no comparison. Bilardo was obsessive/compulsive, but he knew how to play any team, and he knew how to use Diego's influence on the other team. This of leaving Messi alone against 3-4 players is also responsibility of the coach that doesn't know how to take advantage of that.

    And as much as I love Daniel Passarella as a River fan, he always has been un sorete. It's not surprising that Bilardo and Diego cleanup up all those gots before the '86 World Cup.
    Yeah but Reyna was a nobody and if Diego had the balls as everybody loves to say would have kicked the out of him, people has a wrong image about him like he was perfect and won every game, a god between pilgrims when he was a sore loser too.

    Not buying those days were more physical, maybe the 50s 60s and 70s when you had to go to Uruguay to get raped yeah but Missy got kicked hard in the stomach in Chile last year and nobody said a thing, Asshuain got a knee kiss in his fat head and there was silence no whistles in the WC Finals, Missy was still getting kicked during the last minutes a couple days ago and that Brazillian ref stopped raising the yellow cards, I see Barcelona games and Missy gets some sweet kicks very often.

    Argentina 4th Place Copa America 1987


    Bilardo was a real sick coach, today was talking in the Mauro Viale TV show and said Di Stefano was better than Maradona and Messi, Billy as a coach studied every opponent like a madman on the other hand Martino is a re with no plans at all, that doesnt help either.

    Passarella is he sunk River to the B, but as a player he and Gareca made possible Mexico ´86, I think everybody has a part in our futbol history so thats why I hate when people talk like Droga was a perfect warrior ¨Bad dudes vs dragonninja killer¨ because it is a very flawed statement.

    Part of that legend is the fact that he scored against England and people said ¨WOW LOOK WHAT HE DID TO THE INGLESES, THEY CAN KILL US BUT CANT BEAT US IN A FUTBOL GAME, DIEGO IS SUCH A SOULJA WARRIOR¨, and every time media talks about Maradona they put the same stupid play over and over again.

  8. #108
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Diego did kick the out of a Brazilian in '82 and that was pretty much the end of the World Cup for Argentina. So he did learn a thing or two about retaliating, tbh... he was also a much bigger flopper than Messi, no doubt about it, he sometimes abused the fact that he'll get the benefit of the doubt.

    There always was grabbing, etc, but now they have that gay of rolling back the play and calling a foul, that didn't exist back then. Check at 2:36 in that video, that's a vicious kick, and not only no foul is called, but since the ref didn't call it, it's not even a yellow card. Especially in South America, going to play to Peru or Montevideo, you always had very partial refs to the home team (hasn't changed a lot, tbh), and they'll kick the out of you.

    I think it's funny you bring that video for two reasons: 1) Bolivia (the home team) was the runner up in that Copa America (crofl Bolivia being top anything), which ties perfectly with what I was saying, and 2) Uruguay had a pretty good team back then, with prime Enzo, and if you recall, we had a lot of trouble beating them in the '86 World Cup (I think it was Pasculli that scored the only gol).

    Passarella was always un milico, and he definitely was important in the '78 cup. He kind of gave importance to the central defender position, tbh, we had some very good talent with personality in that area that followed his lead (Ruggeri, Brown, Samuel), but that's actually something we didn't really renew for a bunch of years, and it's been costing us a lot (det defense). But Daniel was a total bag, no doubt about it, and Bilardo should get all the credit for picking sides and making the right choice there too.

    And sure, nobody is saying Diego was the perfect player (neither is Messi, nor was Pele I'm pretty sure, even if I didn't see much of him). As far as '86, he really was the guy that beat England and later on, Belgium. He was completely brilliant in those games, and it would be difficult to argue that we would have won them without him. He was key against Italy in the 1st round, another team that was not only the defending champ, but very physical also. Same thing with beating Brazil in the '90 WC. Caniggia scored, but the play was all Diego.

    All that said, I know the Bilardo hate is strong with a bunch of people over there, but he really did know how to put together a team. Some people argue he's a product of Maradona (and you could say that to an extent, you need the star), but he understood what was needed around him, and put a lot of utilitarian players (which were solid, not doubt), and ultimately even guys like Valdano, who was coming from Real Madrid, ended up doing a lot of dirty work on defense, etc, to eventually win that .

    I'm kinda fascinated with all the technical articles that have been coming up these last few weeks in celebration of the 30th anniversary of 1986. I remember back then Bilardo saying he changed football, and I remember thinking, the ego got to this guy. But looking back now, from a tactical standpoint (and looking at the vendehumos like Basile, Tata, even Diego or Passarella as coaches), he really was a step forward as far as tactical planning, and his lineups, while they looked odd back then, were definitely spot on for the adversary we were playing. He's a guy that IMO doesn't get enough credit.

  9. #109
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    ElNono tbh

  10. #110
    Veteran dunkman's Avatar
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    Passarella was clearly one of the best Argentine players, when he got excluded from the '86 squad it looked bad for Argentina. The comments at the time said Maradona and Passarella disliked each other.

    Bilardo was notorious for dirty tactics. Camino broke Navarro's leg, who at the time was the best Peruvian player, in the decisive game in Buenos Aires in 85. Argentina needed a draw, Peru a victory. It ended 2:2.

    Basile was damn good coach for Argentina. He won 2 Copa América, in 91 and 93. Also a Confederations Cup in 91. The team was ranked #1 in that period and went into a +25 games winning streak.

    However, Argentina lost 0:5 to Colombia in Buenos Aires and by public acclaim Maradona returned to the NT to help Argentina win the "repêchage" vs Australia and qualify for USA '94 WC. They were to win it all, but Diego's suspension was a terrible distraction.

    Every little thing Maradona did was a breaking worldwide news, so all the aspects of any his wrongdoing and eccentricities were immediately aired in the news.

  11. #111
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Maradona was like Bilardo, idea of those two guys is win no matter what no matter how... win ugly, dirty but win

  12. #112
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with that



    fair enough



    I don't think here it is a fair statement. There are reasons to believe River fans hate Diego... at the time there were songs like "Maradona son of a , the who gave birth to you..." Now obviously it was a long time ago but old school river fans probably continue to have an issue with him and culture of River fans must have been influenced by that.

    Now unless you are a Madrid fan, why anyone would have a so deep bias against Messi especially in Argentina ? He never played in Argentina. Everybody is biased but that some small . I, for one, recognize a small one tbh but man it's not like Messi played for Marseille or Paris Saint Germain and ed Bordeaux over and over. I have nothing against him, he is playin in Spain, he is not crushing any Bordeaux Champions League dreams (because there ain't any) and he did not eliminate France of any international compe ion...

    I'm just an older dude that saw them both play, there is some nostalgia out there (Platini over Zidane, Diego over Messi...) of course but also some good reasons to believe he is nowhere close to Pele or Diego as you mentionned: failing with Argentina, stacked teams etc etc.... It's all a matter of perspective from what you value the most in my case: WC above anything else, NT above clubs...
    Because of all the Maradona-Messi argument, tbh.

    And, even if it's strange for foreigners to believe it, some delusional Pimienta fans made a suppossed Messi vs Riquelme, or even Tevez, a thing.

  13. #113
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    The difference b/w Messi & Maradona is that one is a big game player while the other one is a frontrunner. It would be like the difference between Curry & Isiah Thomas.
    You are right, Messi has made countless goals in finals. Maradona has never scored in one.

  14. #114
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Maradona (the player) was better then Messi. He was much better than anyone of his era (Matthäus, Van Basten, Gullit, Platini, Zico). It was obvious since his Argentinos Juniors days he was an exceptional talent, but he enjoyed success only when Bilardo took the NT and while playing for Napoli.

    Before that, his success with Argentina was at youth level and he couldn't help win a Copa América. He enjoyed some success with Argentinos, Boca and Barça, but he was still a promise then. The '82 Argentina team was favourite for the WC, but started losing their first game vs Belgium and in the second round group Brazil and eventual champion Italy proved better.

    After his first doping suspension, once he joined Sevilla, he wasn't the same player. He showed some limited brilliance at the '94 WC before being suspended another time. When he returned the second time with Boca, he was totally unrecognizable player. For those who saw him in the 70's and 80's it was appalling.

    He did some things exceptionally well. First it was near impossible to take him the ball and he had great vision of the field. Then he did very unpredictable plays and would make the defenders panic, he would distract 3-4 players then make a great assist. Finally he was outstanding at free kicks, live walls in the Serie A would feature unusually many players when he was about to take a FK. He would serve corners close to the small area and has made some Olympic goals if I recall right.

    He struggled but eventually silenced any critics while at Napoli or at '86 and '90 Mundiales, something that Messi wasn't able to do.

    The guy was a genius type of talent.

    Maradona, the person, is another story. It matters as he set a bad example for the youth, but there is nothing to do about.
    What the did he do there? That assist to Caniggia. Nothing more.

    Messi '14 WC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maradona '90 WC, and then some.

    But yet, here you are saying Maradona "silenced any critics" with his '90 WC performance but saying Messi couldn't do the same.

    This is the I talk about when I say many folks tend to overrated Maradona's achievments, tbh.

  15. #115
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Diego did kick the out of a Brazilian in '82 and that was pretty much the end of the World Cup for Argentina. So he did learn a thing or two about retaliating, tbh... he was also a much bigger flopper than Messi, no doubt about it, he sometimes abused the fact that he'll get the benefit of the doubt.

    There always was grabbing, etc, but now they have that gay of rolling back the play and calling a foul, that didn't exist back then. Check at 2:36 in that video, that's a vicious kick, and not only no foul is called, but since the ref didn't call it, it's not even a yellow card. Especially in South America, going to play to Peru or Montevideo, you always had very partial refs to the home team (hasn't changed a lot, tbh), and they'll kick the out of you.

    I think it's funny you bring that video for two reasons: 1) Bolivia (the home team) was the runner up in that Copa America (crofl Bolivia being top anything), which ties perfectly with what I was saying, and 2) Uruguay had a pretty good team back then, with prime Enzo, and if you recall, we had a lot of trouble beating them in the '86 World Cup (I think it was Pasculli that scored the only gol).

    Passarella was always un milico, and he definitely was important in the '78 cup. He kind of gave importance to the central defender position, tbh, we had some very good talent with personality in that area that followed his lead (Ruggeri, Brown, Samuel), but that's actually something we didn't really renew for a bunch of years, and it's been costing us a lot (det defense). But Daniel was a total bag, no doubt about it, and Bilardo should get all the credit for picking sides and making the right choice there too.

    And sure, nobody is saying Diego was the perfect player (neither is Messi, nor was Pele I'm pretty sure, even if I didn't see much of him). As far as '86, he really was the guy that beat England and later on, Belgium. He was completely brilliant in those games, and it would be difficult to argue that we would have won them without him. He was key against Italy in the 1st round, another team that was not only the defending champ, but very physical also. Same thing with beating Brazil in the '90 WC. Caniggia scored, but the play was all Diego.

    All that said, I know the Bilardo hate is strong with a bunch of people over there, but he really did know how to put together a team. Some people argue he's a product of Maradona (and you could say that to an extent, you need the star), but he understood what was needed around him, and put a lot of utilitarian players (which were solid, not doubt), and ultimately even guys like Valdano, who was coming from Real Madrid, ended up doing a lot of dirty work on defense, etc, to eventually win that .

    I'm kinda fascinated with all the technical articles that have been coming up these last few weeks in celebration of the 30th anniversary of 1986. I remember back then Bilardo saying he changed football, and I remember thinking, the ego got to this guy. But looking back now, from a tactical standpoint (and looking at the vendehumos like Basile, Tata, even Diego or Passarella as coaches), he really was a step forward as far as tactical planning, and his lineups, while they looked odd back then, were definitely spot on for the adversary we were playing. He's a guy that IMO doesn't get enough credit.
    You talking about CA '87? That was played in Argentina son.

  16. #116
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Because of all the Maradona-Messi argument, tbh.

    And, even if it's strange for foreigners to believe it, some delusional Pimienta fans made a suppossed Messi vs Riquelme, or even Tevez, a thing.
    Again fair enough but this kind of bias is usually not as strong a bias due to clubs rivalry. again I see your point tho

  17. #117
    EAT IT!!! Kawhitstorm's Avatar
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    You are right, Messi has made countless goals in finals. Maradona has never scored in one.
    You're right zero can't be counted.

  18. #118
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Whats gives Dona his godly status is there was no internet/giant media/twitter/youtube during those days, because if he were playing now there would be a lot of his exposed.
    And lots of people love to say he is the better player without even checking the facts.
    You are so right son. I mean, look at what the press said about Maradona before '86.


    They called him a "failure"

    Then '86 came and all was forgotten.

    '86. a WC. One tournament. One month. And the myth was created.

  19. #119
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    You're right zero can't be counted.
    Dude, Messi holds the record for goals scored in finals.

  20. #120
    Believe.
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    Hard to compare eras imo, Pele played against the poorest competetion for sure though, would he excell in todays game? Who knows, todays game is so demanding, you have to be in the strictest diet possible to get the best out of your body, everything has pretty much evolved.

  21. #121
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    You are so right son. I mean, look at what the press said about Maradona before '86.


    They called him a "failure"

    Then '86 came and all was forgotten.

    '86. a WC. One tournament. One month. And the myth was created.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
    Be careful with that info, your life could be in danger.

  22. #122
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    Hard to compare eras imo, Pele played against the poorest competetion for sure though, would he excell in todays game? Who knows, todays game is so demanding, you have to be in the strictest diet possible to get the best out of your body, everything has pretty much evolved.
    Not really, players dont run the whole field in 6 seconds and dont make goals from 50 meters, same with BB players they are not faster and they should be doing freethrow line dunks all the time.
    Players are more ripped sure but that doesnt mean they are stronger/faster.

  23. #123
    EAT IT!!! Kawhitstorm's Avatar
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    Dude, Messi holds the record for goals scored in finals.
    I didn't know the record was zero.

  24. #124
    EAT IT!!! Kawhitstorm's Avatar
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    You are so right son. I mean, look at what the press said about Maradona before '86.


    They called him a "failure"

    Then '86 came and all was forgotten.

    '86. a WC. One tournament. One month. And the myth was created.
    Diego: Dirk

    Messi: Malone

  25. #125
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I didn't know the record was zero.
    It's of about 20, tbh.

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