Lakers: Lonzo Ball will be the best PG in the league

[140]

This got has nothing on JKidd, tbh

[Killakobe81]

Bilas thinks differently
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18363909

Apparently so does Sports day Dallas that saw Kidd up close
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dall...ons-jason-kidd

Also here is another one that I agree with they say Best case for Ball is Jkidd ... and worst case is Rubio ...with him most likely falling in-between. And I agree though I do think he will be much better than Rubio. http://hardwoodhoudini.com/2017/03/1...on-lonzo-ball/

Again it's not lazy, many have made the same comparisons with valid reasons and points why he reminds them of kidd. But Kidd to me was the better player and prospect. Maybe Ball can change my mind in the tourney but I stand by poor man's Kidd.

[Killakobe81]

So now we are quoting Bill Walton, a man whose brain is so drug addled he thinks a cactus is a man offering him a high five.

They both have good vision, but have flair.

But they are almost nothing alike. Fundamentally and statistically. Outside of assists per game, which is an outcome stat, not a causation stat.

Freshman Kidd 13 pts. 7.7 assists 4.9 rebs and 3.8 steals (wow I remember him being a ball hawk but wow) FT% 66 FG%463 . 3p% .286
Freshman Ball 14.6 pts 7.6 assists 6.1 rebs and 1.9 steals Ft% 67 FG% .551 3p% .414

Wow, Jmark those stats look nothing alike except the fact the FT% is almost identical as are the assists. rebounds are within 1% . Ball shoots it better Kidd the far better ballhawk ...no comparison at, all!!

[JMarkJohns]

Freshman Kidd 13 pts. 7.7 assists 4.9 rebs and 3.8 steals (wow I remember him being a ball hawk but wow) FT% 66 FG%463 . 3p% .286
Freshman Ball 14.6 pts 7.6 assists 6.1 rebs and 1.9 steals Ft% 67 FG% .551 3p% .414

Wow, Jmark those stats look nothing alike except the fact the FT% is almost identical as are the assists. rebounds are within 1% . Ball shoots it better Kidd the far better ballhawk ...no comparison at, all!!

You're an idiot. Stats are ends, not means.

I saw Kidd at Cal. I also am currently and have been for the last 12 years, a paid contributor to both Rivals and Scout basketball recruiting services.

Just two days ago I said the Lakers need to draft Ball.

I am not saying he's a player.

I'm saying the comparison to Kidd, an all-world defender who scored more as a final option than first or second, is a lazy one based mostly on physical appearance of the players and casual nature of statistical averages.

Yes, both play PG, and both have a flair. Both pass the ball. But Lonzo looks to scores far more often and as a shooter is far more adept, while Kidd was hyper aggressive defensively and in pushing passes into scoring opportunities.

Different styles, different mentalities.

[RsxPiimp]

ucla is on tonight, need to see what this kid is made of.

[Killakobe81]

You're an idiot. Stats are ends, not means.

I saw Kidd at Cal. I also am currently and have been for the last 12 years, a paid contributor to both Rivals and Scout basketball recruiting services.

Just two days ago I said the Lakers need to draft Ball.

I am not saying he's a player.

I'm saying the comparison to Kidd, an all-world rebounder and defender who scored more as a final option than first or second, is a lazy one based mostly on physical appearance of the players and casual nature of statistical averages.

Yes, both play PG, and both have a flair. Both pass the ball. But Lonzo Lois to scores far more often and as a shooter is far more adept, while Kidd was hyper aggressive defensively and in pushing passes into scoring opportunities.

Different styles, different mentalities.

Name calling the first sign of losing an argument.

1. If you are a contributor to those reputable services then you should be able to make your argument without resorting to responding like a teenager especially if you saw Kidd at Cal.
2. You said assists was the only stat that was similar but I showed you more ...btw you brought up stats first then you argue that they don't matter ...so why bring them up?
3. You made fun of the Walton example I gave you Jay Bilas

Ball also pushes the ball aggressively.
I do think Kidd is much better on defense and is also the better prospect so not sure what you are arguing. maybe you misunderstood I will try and be the adult and give you the benefit of the doubt, here .

All I am saying is that I see SOME similar traits... No he is not the 2nd coming of Kidd or a carbon copy. There are SOME elements of his game that REMIND me and many others of Kidd. and I am arguing it's not lazy if reasonable basketball analysts like Bilas who also is a draft guru similar to Kiper for ESPN on the NBA draft

I think the last link that said best case he could be (paraphrasing) a Kidd like PG ... worst case Rubio but he will probably fall between those extremes, is pretty spot on. I think both have shown better defense than Ball, however I do not think Rubio could defend Dillon Brooks Like Ball did in the second half vs. Oregon and Kidd could have easily done because Kidd was an elite PG defender ho could defend bigger players easily.

As for the Lakers, I don't want them to draft Ball (even as Bruins fan) unless he is BPA. IF Fultz, Tatum or Josh Jackson are better prospects Lakers should draft them instead imho.

[Killakobe81]

The only time I've seen Lonzo Ball play was Friday night when Kent State played UCLA. Admittedly a short sample size, but if I had to make a comparison it would be to Shaun Livingston. Similar size and build and a similar controlled, efficient game. He isn't a great defensive player (UCLA as a team is not very good defensively) but a lot of guys come into the NBA with defensive deficiencies. Those can be ironed out.

Don't see Livingston who is much longer ... but Seeing shaun at Duke honestly I thought he had a lot of talent but never thought he would be Kidd type player I don't even know if Ball can do that either tbh but ball has been more impressive as freshman imho than Shaun, but not as much as Kidd

[Killakobe81]

Boston will probably pick Ball tbh which gives the Lakers either Fultz or Jackson.

I hope they do if the others are better players ...

[JMarkJohns]

You showed a lot of stats.

Only stats really "close" are PPG, APG, and FT%... so of the 8 stats you showed, you're 3/8.

Again, my point is what you have continued to prove: superficially, surface looks, because each is a tall PG with passing flair, most see some result-based stats and see a comparison.

But their styles are not similar. Kidd was inefficient in the half court. It got worse in the NBA, but it went back to to Cal as well. Look at those shooting percentages.

Kidd pushed passes into offense because if he wasn't getting into the Lane, Kidd wasn't nearly the player offensively. Ball can shoot, Ball can pull up off the dribble, and Ball also doesn't mind giving up the Ball ala hockey assist. Kidd and his type of PG were mostly ball-dominant.

Getting to Defense, Ball struggles to stay in front of quicker players. Look at the first Arizona game for proof. Simmons is an elite level athlete with almost no skill, as evidenced by his recent MPG with Trier back. Simmonds touched Ball for 20-5-4.

That's one game. Now, it's not a full indictment on Ball. He's lanky and has spurts of intensity that rivals the drive Kidd played with constantly on defense, but mostly Ball lags off and plays the passing lanes, using length. Kidd was a bulldog on-ball defender who also used length for steals, but forced many off the bounce, not just off the pass.

Quoting drug addled Walton and East Coast Bias Bilas as proof of your claim is silly.

They share commonalities in they excel in transition, and look to facilitate off the pass. But they aren't even the same type of passes, and they are radically different offensive and defensive players.

I was wrong for calling you an idiot. But stats aren't a smart play.

[JMarkJohns]

As for prospects, I like Fultz tops, but not by much.

Ball is intriguing and if he can keep clear of his dad's BS, keep his head on his game, then he could be great.

Jackson hasn't shown a scorers mentality. More of a finishers ability, with a touch of facilitation. He has the ability to pass, has improved his shooting, but he's best off the catch. Not sure he develops into ideal scorer. But he's an elite defender and solid in every other aspect.

Tatum is intriguing. I think his game is a bit of a throwback for modern wing. Early his offense stalled Duke's and he became a bit of a black hole. He's become more willing to quickly get rid of the ball if immediate shot/lane isn't available, rather than holding on to it, and killing flow.

Lakers would be best for a PG, but if they don't believe Ingram has the upside, then Tatum could be the alpha scorer they are looking to develop.

[Killakobe81]

You showed a lot of stats.

Only stats really "close" are PPG, APG, and FT%... so of the 8 stats you showed, you're 3/8.

Again, my point is what you have continued to prove: superficially, surface looks, because each is a tall PG with passing flair, most see some result-based stats and see a comparison.

But their styles are not similar. Kidd was inefficient in the half court. It got worse in the NBA, but it went back to to Cal as well. Look at those shooting percentages.

Kidd pushed passes into offense because if he wasn't getting into the Lane, Kidd wasn't nearly the player offensively. Ball can shoot, Ball can pull up off the dribble, and Ball also doesn't mind giving up the Ball ala hockey assist. Kidd and his type of PG were mostly ball-dominant.

Getting to Defense, Ball struggles to stay in front of quicker players. Look at the first Arizona game for proof. Simmons is an elite level athlete with almost no skill, as evidenced by his recent MPG with Trier back. Simmonds touched Ball for 20-5-4.

That's one game. Now, it's not a full indictment on Ball. He's lanky and has spurts of intensity that rivals the drive Kidd played with constantly on defense, but mostly Ball lags off and plays the passing lanes, using length. Kidd was a bulldog on-ball defender who also used length for steals, but forced many off the bounce, not just off the pass.

Quoting drug addled Walton and East Coast Bias Bilas as proof of your claim is silly.

They share commonalities in they excel in transition, and look to facilitate off the pass. But they aren't even the same type of passes, and they are radically different offensive and defensive players.

I was wrong for calling you an idiot. But stats aren't a smart play.

It's all good this is well thought out report on why you don't agree. Again all I have been saying is I don't think it's hard to see some similar traits. What you have done is illustrated where they differ. I just felt the lazy and nothing similar is as unfair as you deem the comparison lazy.

Let me ask you this, is it unfair to expect Walton or even Bilas to dig as deep as you did?
All I am saying is that a reasonable smart hops fan/TV analyst who may not contribute to Rivals etc may see some overlap in their skillset as passers and that they would not be way off base.

Anyways gonna get back to tourney ...appreciate the follow up. That was a solid post.

[JMarkJohns]

It's all good this is well thought out report on why you don't agree. Again all I have been saying is I don't think it's hard to see some similar traits. What you have done is illustrated where they differ. I just felt the lazy and nothing similar is as unfair as you deem the comparison lazy.

Let me ask you this, is it unfair to expect Walton or even Bilas to dig as deep as you did?
All I am saying is that a reasonable smart hops fan/TV analyst who may not contribute to Rivals etc may see some overlap in their skillset as passers and that they would not be way off base.

Anyways gonna get back to tourney ...appreciate the follow up. That was a solid post.

I allowed my frustration with the comparison, something I've had to address on multiple boards, to taint dialogue here.

I can see why some take the easy comparison.

Ball is unique. Has some pretty awesome offensive traits.

It's cool to chat. I'll do better to not get so annoyed next time.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, Shaun Livingston didn't play for Duke. Committed, but went pros. He picked Duke over Arizona, and I remember telling folks it didn't matter. Livingston was almost all instinct and ability at that point. Not much skill, but incredible feel and vision.

Ball is supremely skilled. His array of pull-ups and floaters coupled with dribble/drive, coupled with 3-point ability is astonishing.

I still worry about him caring mostly when convenient, and his Dad living rent free in that head of his (will he be swayed by daddy over what coach says? Will daddy use media to undercut coach?).

But Ball has an incredible offensive foundation to build upon.

[Killakobe81]

Also, Shaun Livingston didn't play for Duke. Committed, but went pros. He picked Duke over Arizona, and I remember telling folks it didn't matter. Livingston was almost all instinct and ability at that point. Not much skill, but incredible feel and vision.

Ball is supremely skilled. His array of pull-ups and floaters coupled with dribble/drive, coupled with 3-point ability is astonishing.

I still worry about him caring mostly when convenient, and his Dad living rent free in that head of his (will he be swayed by daddy over what coach says? Will daddy use media to undercut coach?).

But Ball has an incredible offensive foundation to build upon.

My bad I saw him in HS he did commit to Duke though I remember his recruitment was heavy by all the big schools

[Killakobe81]

Also, Shaun Livingston didn't play for Duke. Committed, but went pros. He picked Duke over Arizona, and I remember telling folks it didn't matter. Livingston was almost all instinct and ability at that point. Not much skill, but incredible feel and vision.

Ball is supremely skilled. His array of pull-ups and floaters coupled with dribble/drive, coupled with 3-point ability is astonishing.

I still worry about him caring mostly when convenient, and his Dad living rent free in that head of his (will he be swayed by daddy over what coach says? Will daddy use media to undercut coach?).

But Ball has an incredible offensive foundation to build upon.

I admit his daddy worries me for the Bruins THIS year much less as a pro.
I am enjoying when Ball fronts bigger players in that zone that at least shows he is strong and can defend when locked in ...

[JMarkJohns]

Lonzo seems like he has a good head on his shoulder. Not heard him talk like his father.

But his dad isn't going away. So I still hold concerns.

[JMarkJohns]

Livingston and Sebastian Telfair. One 6-7 PG. the other a 5-7. Haha both went 1st round as pre to pros.

[daslicer]

Lonzo has great balance for a young player. He knows when to get his teammates involved and when to assert himself and score. That's very rare for a young player to have that type of feel for the game.

[JMarkJohns]

Lonzo has great balance for a young player. He knows when to get his teammates involved and when to assert himself and score. That's very rare for a young player to have that type of feel for the game.

Yep. Had to score in 1st and early 2nd. No assists until 2nd, then 7/8 assists.

Good shooting percentages.

[RsxPiimp]

great game from lonzo. controlled the pace of the game against cincinnati. great balance in scoring and creating plays for his teammates. im warming up to the idea of ball, russell and ingram. lakers need a true playmaker.

considering the lakers luck though, good chance they'll miss out again.

[Killakobe81]

great game from lonzo. controlled the pace of the game against cincinnati. great balance in scoring and creating plays for his teammates. im warming up to the idea of ball, russell and ingram. lakers need a true playmaker.

considering the lakers luck though, good chance they'll miss out again.

Would love 2 get top pick but dont be picky we have a chance of getting nothing. I'll take Fultz, Tatum, Jackson, Ball or even Fox if he can improve his jumper.

[rastaspur]

So now we are quoting Bill Walton, a man whose brain is so drug addled he thinks a cactus is a man offering him a high five.

They both have good vision, but have flair.

But they are almost nothing alike. Fundamentally and statistically. Outside of assists per game, which is an outcome stat, not a causation stat.

Bill walton may have seen more than 600 grateful dead shows and taken an ass load of drugs over the years but I would still be willing to wager that he knows more than someone on an internet forum claiming to contribute to x, y, or z.

Leave bill be. He is the best hippie to ever play the game. Mad respect for walton.

[JMarkJohns]

Bill walton may have seen more than 600 grateful dead shows and taken an ass load of drugs over the years but I would still be willing to wager that he knows more than someone on an internet forum claiming to contribute to x, y, or z.

Leave bill be. He is the best hippie to ever play the game. Mad respect for walton.

Claiming? Search my name here and find what people say about me and my sources. Search my contributions here on players never even mentioned let alone broken down like I do.

Bill Walton is one of my favorite analysts because of the crazy he says. But the man has lost it and is officially a caricature of his former self. His rants have zero reasoning, and he's the biggest UCLA hyperbolist there is. He can't even isiolate where his true opinion ends and his exaggeration begins.

I've already detailed why the Kidd comps are sloppy at best and lazy at worst.

Don't bother responding if you can't understand logic.

[RsxPiimp]

gonzo's dad talks waay too much. his son is gonna get killed in the pros

[Killakobe81]

gonzo's dad talks waay too much. his son is gonna get killed in the pros

Probably. But maybe some will feel bad that his dad keeps running his mouth Lonzo doesnt talk much ...but tbh if he and Fultz are close its almost to the point of why deal with his ...its not like he is LeBron ... a no doubt about it first pick prospect.