NBA: Will Chris Paul end being an underrated legend?

[ambchang]

1. I already realized win shares is ulative ... when you are discussing someone's career should you not consider ulative stats? I posted the list of career win shares vs PER because the original post in this thread was discussing Chris Paul's career. (hence the le will Chris Paul go down as an underrated legend?)

PER isn't ulative then, so by your own definition, you shouldn't use PER to compare careers. And no, it's a combination of both. Robert Parish having many years of good performances isn't necessarily better than, say, Chris Mullin career-wise.

2. My point lost in the weeds with your Pau unabashed love is that Chris paul had enough help if he is truly as great as PER, hype, win shares etc. to at LEAST make the Conference finals. Is that the end all be all? No. But I do think at the very least its reasonable minimal bar to expect a player with 3 all star team-mates and a highly decorated (also overrated) coach from Pop's tree with the a multiple 6moty winner should be able to accomplish. They beat the Spurs a few years back and had a 3-1 lead on Rox (iirc) and still could not make conference finals. That doesn't concern you a little?

Yeah, it does, that's why he will always be a notch below the Isiah Thomases and John Stocktons, or even the Jason Kidds and Gary Paytons, because his style of play does not translate to playoff success. It's similar to what David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki were as bigs, they need very specific teams built around them to win, but Robinson and Nowitzki got lucky and got those teams.

3. Why should I look at peak win share seasons only? When did the discussion switch to peaks? I repeatedly and consistently have been talking careers. You lauded win shares over PER but when I point out how flawed it was career wise 0 now you are changing the focal point of the discussion. I only brought up peaks to point out that Blake had a year considered by some to be top 3-4 MVP worthy. Pau has never had that. Yes the MVP is bull and has been for years but you have mentioned Duncan's MVP's in plenty of other threads including a recent one about undeserving MVPs ...you don't get to pick and choose when MVP votes are meaningful or how i should decipher win shares. Stats are not subjective they are numbers. why should I trust an advanced metric that only is good for peak seasons? Why should I trust WS when it cannot even produce a good top 3 list career wise and vastly overrates Karl Malone?

It would be a number of peaks, not just one season. I don't believe there is one single metric that is representative of a player's career. Compe ion, team makeup, era of play all factor into the entire conversation. Some of the more extreme examples: If Chris Mullin, David Robinson, Chris Webber, or even Ken Norman played in today's era, their careers would be viewed much more positively than yester-years, where as if you put Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, or even the Buck Williams and Terry mings in today's era, they would be significantly less effective due to all the rule changes and restrictions. Conversely, a player like Cousins would be more effective in the 90s, but Durant and Curry will not be.

As for MVP voting, same idea. If your compe ion is weak, like the late 70s, then MVP voting isn't that impressive. However, if your compe ion is fierce, like the early 00s, then it counts as something.

4. Last I agree one of the major problems with metrics now is that the best players are manipulating them. Durant, lebron and Paul should be lauded for trying to be more efficient players but are also chickenshot too for the times (some of this admittedly) it impacts their game. they wont take those end of clock buzzer beaters, stat whoring assists, seeking triple doubles to protect /boost their metrics.

It's our own fault in which we overemphasized a player's career based on stats, and I am definitely on the side of over emphasis, which when there is enough mass, created this environment where players knew how to manipulate the narrative to their own benefit. Wilt did it back in the days by stat-whoring (there is no doubt about it), Karl Malone did it by deemphasizing his checkered past and put on a facade of a nice guy, Kobe created this persona of win-above-all-else and "intensity", Garnett had that intensity down pat, Lebron ring chases, Durant and Westbrook is now the new age of advanced stats whoring.

[Killakobe81]

I'm done ...you can enjoy the last word other wise this will never end. just dont bother me with win shares
in future debates its not any better than most metrics and we are good.

[Killakobe81]

MVPau > griffin and it's not even close. Individual accolades and statistics shows as such.

[Killakobe81]

this as I said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it as much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should have outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...he never truly figured out how to share playmaking.

bump

[ambchang]

So five games trump leading a b2b champ in advanced stats for you now. I guess the lakers really have so many rings that those things don’t mean anything to you anymore.

When it was 5>4, it was rings end of story. The when it sewas 5:5 it was who won first and ppg. But now five games trump two championships and longo is great because he racks up
Assists.

:smh.

[ambchang]

So five games trump leading a b2b champ in advanced stats for you now. I guess the lakers really have so many rings that those things don’t mean anything to you anymore.

When it was 5>4, it was rings end of story. The when it sewas 5:5 it was who won first and ppg. But now five games trump two championships and longo is great because he racks up
Assists.

:smh.

So is griffin > MVPau now? A few more games have been played. Time to make a definitely answer based on a dozen games.

[Killakobe81]

So is griffin > MVPau now? A few more games have been played. Time to make a definitely answer based on a dozen games.

this year, yup.
career wise Pau gets the edge as i said ...
again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better...which considering Blake played for Del Negro and Doc while pau played for Phil dantoni and Pop ...Blake has held his own in ...the regular season.

[ambchang]

this year, yup.
career wise Pau gets the edge as i said ...
again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better...which considering Blake played for Del Negro and Doc while pau played for Phil dantoni and Pop ...Blake has held his own in ...the regular season.

So it’s relatively close in the rs but MVPau clearly better in the postseason. How is that not MVPau not blowing griffin out of the water career wise?

[Killakobe81]

So it’s relatively close in the rs but MVPau clearly better in the postseason. How is that not MVPau not blowing griffin out of the water career wise?

because griffin has actually been better in regular season ...playoffs?! pau has a significant advantage but he played with Kobe instead of that loser CP0, tbh, fwiw ...

[ambchang]

because grifgin has actually been better in regular season ...playoffs?! pau has a significant advantage but he played with Kobe instead of that loser CP0, tbh, fwiw ...

Griffin wasn't better in the regular season, you just said "again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better", as in they are very close from your perspective. With MVPau being much better in the playoffs, it clinches it.

Which brings up the other point, what's the difference who MVPau played with? We are comparing individual careers.

[Killakobe81]

Griffin wasn't better in the regular season, you just said "again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better", as in they are very close from your perspective. With MVPau being much better in the playoffs, it clinches it.

Which brings up the other point, what's the difference who MVPau played with? We are comparing individual careers.

bump and yes Griffin has ...by PER ...which was the stat i was using to compare ... but whatever ..either way, Griffin dominated the game last night and more importantly won with both guys missing their best teammate ...and to top it all off ...Paul melts down like the playoffs already started ...priceless.
what a got...Having Capela knock on the lockeroom door while he Leads ariza and harden throuhh the back?!
What great leafership skills ...but he is so compe ive though!!! Underrated, my ass which was original my point ...Point Gawd ...smh.

[Killakobe81]

Literally the 3rd best PG to ever play

seriously?!!
ok that mskes his 2nd round flops even worse ...
lets look at the third best center, SG, SF, PF of all time and show me the other one just one ...that has failed to make it out the 2nd round of he playoffs in his prime?
admittedly it's arbitrary but only reason its an issue because numbers say Paul is the greatest player to never reach a NBA Finals ...and he is two steps removed from even doing that ...

[ambchang]

bump and yes Griffin has ...by PER ...which was the stat i was using to compare ... but whatever ..either way, Griffin dominated the game last night and more importantly won with both guys missing their best teammate ...and to top it all off ...Paul melts down like the playoffs already started ...priceless.
what a got...Having Capela knock on the lockeroom door while he Leads ariza and harden throuhh the back?!
What great leafership skills ...but he is so compe ive though!!! Underrated, my ass which was original my point ...Point Gawd ...smh.

One game at a time. You go girl.

[Killakobe81]

One game at a time. You go girl.

lol we have a whole career of examples ...Paul melting down.
side note:
apparently me calling you or saying you acting feminine a while back ...sticks in your craw ...cuz you keep takibg shots ...mantoman I apologize. You can continue ...but i wont i have matured.
its just bball opinions ill stick to calling out players when they underperform and praise when they do well ...
Blake was also wrong last night but I applaud him for standing up for himself last night...there are plenty of soft ass PFs that should do the same ...

[ambchang]

lol we have a whole career of examples ...Paul melting down.
side note:
apparently me calling you or saying you acting feminine a while back ...sticks in your craw ...cuz you keep takibg shots ...mantoman I apologize. You can continue ...but i wont i have matured.
its just bball opinions ill stick to calling out players when they underperform and praise when they do well ...
Blake was also wrong last night but I applaud him for standing up for himself last night...there are plenty of soft ass PFs that should do the same ...

No question cop3 is madw but you were comparing griffin to MVPau.

Don’t care what you call me, you can call me a tranny and it’d still be better than a laker fan nowadays.

[LkrFan]

Fast forward to 2021:

Hustn's payrll