What's up with Bertans?

[Chinook]

What do you think is the best way?

I just said to DAF that Davis was likely slotted for a 10mpg Bonner role with him closing out quarters and having plays run to get him buckets. Last season, he was moving in that direction. Had he excelled there and shown growth rebounding, defending and holding onto the ball, I think he would have graduated to a bigger role. I still think that's the best place for him over him getting time specifically spelling LMA, Pau or Kawhi. Just carve out a few minutes each half for Davis time. That way he gets a consistent role to prepare for while the rest of the rotation stays intact. It's up to him to take advantage of those minutes though.

[DAF86]

dont be obtuse. we can still look at anderson/gay's minute distribution in games that kawhi wasn't playing. how often did they play as the 2?

heres a link of all 5 player lineups used by the spurs: https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanc...sort=MIN&dir=1

go ahead and show me how many of them have either gay, anderson, or kawhi playing as the 2

That's because Pop this season has decided to play more smallball, and being the micromanaging coach that he is, he saves Kyle and specially Gay's minutes to be the 4 on those smallball situations, because them (alongside Bertans and Kawhi) are the ones that are best suited for that role. A smallball lineup of Tony, Mills, Forbes and Murray wouldn't be very effective, tbh.

But that doesn't mean that Gay, Anderson or Kawhi can't play the 2. If Pop still played with two traditional bigs for all of the game and thought that, let's say, Kawhi and Gay were his best two wings, I'm sure he will play them together and one of them would unfailingly be labaled as the "SG".

[spurraider21]

That's because Pop this season has decided to play more smallball, and being the micromanaging coach that he is, he saves Kyle and specially Gay's minutes to be the 4 on those smallball situations, because them (alongside Bertans and Kawhi) are the ones that are best suited for that role. A smallball lineup of Tony, Mills, Forbes and Murray wouldn't be very effective, tbh.

But that doesn't mean that Gay, Anderson or Kawhi can't play the 2. If Pop still played with two traditional bigs for all of the game and thought that, let's say, Kawhi and Gay were his best two wings, I'm sure he will play them together and one of them would unfailingly be labaled as the "SG".

i think its fair to say kawhi can play the 2. anderson and gay are a different story, though

[DAF86]

Re ed is missing the point that those "old scrubs" started off in Bertans' position before earning a consistent role. Before Parker and Patty were guys Pop played too much, they were guys Pop didn't play enough. The same from Green, Leonard, Anderson and frankly a list of guys who have played for Pop over the years.

It's not more acceptable for a fringe rotation player to make a mistake. Pop already knows what he has in the vets (and he likes it). Bertans is supposed to come in and show why he should be on the court, and he hasn't done that a lot this year.

I was referring to your Bertans/Lauvergne comparisson.

Bertans has had his share of ty stints. Pop seemed completely prepared to use Davis in the role he eventually gave to Bonner in 2012-2016. When you're in that role, you can't start off by throwing the ball out of bounds then leaving your guy open on the other side of the court. He did that a lot to start the year, and a number of fans were pissed at him for it. He should have come in ready to shoot and knowing what to do on the court, and instead he continued his ty play from the summer league. Had he come in, hit his shots and not been a negative, then we could debate him getting more time. As it is, he's been awful to many times. Pop rewards him when he does well, and that's more than fair given how many combo-forwards are on the roster.

Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

[DAF86]

i think its fair to say kawhi can play the 2. anderson and gay are a different story, though

To start last season, when Green was injured, Anderson was listed as the SG. I remember articles about how Anderson was a top 2/3 defensive SG on the league because of his DPM numbers. That's how inconsequential nominal positions are.

[spurraider21]

To start last season, when Green was injured, Anderson was listed as the SG. I remember articles about how Anderson was a top 2/3 defensive SG on the league because of his DPM numbers. That's how inconsequential nominal positions are.

i get what you're saying, but what a player "can play" is quite frankly irrelevant if pop is never willing to actually play them at that position. i mean in the context of our initial discussion, we both agreed that bertans should have been getting more minutes from the get-go... but i pointed out his minutes were largely blocked by anderson/gay who had been occupying the small-ball 4 spot that bertans has seem almost all of his minutes at. you said "but pop can just slide those guys down to the 2"... except quite frankly we haven't seen pop be willing to do that. so its irrelevant that we think they "can" or "can't" actually play that spot. its only relevant if pop actually plays them there, and there's no indication he will imo

its no coincidence that bertans' minutes have shot up when gay went down, but the availability of manu/green/kawhi haven't really swayed his minutes

[DAF86]

i get what you're saying, but what a player "can play" is quite frankly irrelevant if pop is never willing to actually play them at that position. i mean in the context of our initial discussion, we both agreed that bertans should have been getting more minutes from the get-go... but i pointed out his minutes were largely blocked by anderson/gay who had been occupying the small-ball 4 spot that bertans has seem almost all of his minutes at. you said "but pop can just slide those guys down to the 2"... except quite frankly we haven't seen pop be willing to do that. so its irrelevant that we think they "can" or "can't" actually play that spot. its only relevant if pop actually plays them there, and there's no indication he will imo

its no coincidence that bertans' minutes have shot up when gay went down, but the availability of manu/green/kawhi haven't really swayed his minutes

I didn't say the 2, I said "any of the other two wing positions" because to me they are th same, you said that to you they weren't and that's where the argument started.

And of course I realize that Pop is playing Bertans in the positions that Gay and Anderson would play, but that's exactly what I'm arguing: that Pop could find more minutes for Bertans by taking away some of Forbes and Paul's.

[spurraider21]

I didn't say the 2, I said "any of the other two wing positions" because to me they are th same, you said that to you they weren't and that's where the argument started.

And of course I realize that Pop is playing Bertans in the positions that Gay and Anderson would play, but that's exactly what I'm arguing: that Pop could find more minutes for Bertans by taking away some of Forbes and Paul's.

yeah and my point has been that the "wing positions" aren't interchangeable, and its clear that Pop doesn't see the Forbes/Paul role as being interchangeable with the Gay/Anderson roles even though they are both "wing" positions

imo you'd have a better shot of making the point that the 3/4 positions are interchangeable in our small-ball lineup

[MaNu4Tres]

I was referring to your Bertans/Lauvergne comparisson.




Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

This.

[spurraider21]

yep

[DAF86]

yeah and my point has been that the "wing positions" aren't interchangeable

And that's what I've arguing you. I have yet to see you give one good example that proves that the 2 and the 3 aren't exchangeable. And don't come with that crap that "X player doesn't have many minutes recorded as SG", because it has already been established it is bull . Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner were labaled as "Centers" just so that Tim Duncan could keep his "power forward" label.

And its clear that Pop doesn't see the Forbes/Paul role as being interchangeable with the Gay/Anderson roles even though they are both "wing" positions

imo you'd have a better shot of making the point that the 3/4 positions are interchangeable in our small-ball lineup

I think Pop's reasons for not playing Bertans are more of a particular problem he has with him and the things he does or does not do while he's on the floor, than the thing about the 2 and the 3 not being exchangeable.

And I will give you one last example to prove that isn't so: Manu and Green are both labeled as "Shooting guards", yet this season with Kawhi's injury they have played together a lot of minutes, specially on crunch time. Who's the SG and who's the SF on those situations?... IT DOESN'T ING MATTER. They are both wings.

Maybe what you should be arguing is that a stretch 4 and a 2 aren't exchangeable and that could sometimes be true because even though I think guys like Anderson, Gay and Kawhi could play anywhere from 2 to stretch 4 (which is just another way of saying that they can defend any of the opposing wings and not be a liability), I don't think Bertans, with his lack of lateral movement, could do the same. But since we won't ever play 3 wings together with the lack of lateral movement that Bertans has, this isn't a problem.

[Raven]

he's improving, that much is clear. I wonder if he could learn to draw some contact in the paint..

[spurraider21]

And that's what I've arguing you. I have yet to see you give one good example that proves that the 2 and the 3 aren't exchangeable. And don't come with that crap that "X player doesn't have many minutes recorded as SG", because it has already been established it is bull . Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner were labaled as "Centers" just so that Tim Duncan could keep his "power forward" label.


I think Pop's reasons for not playing Bertans are more of a particular problem he has with him and the things he does or does not do while he's on the floor, than the thing about the 2 and the 3 not being exchangeable.

And I will give you one last example to prove that isn't so: Manu and Green are both labeled as "Shooting guards", yet this season with Kawhi's injury they have played together a lot of minutes, specially on crunch time. Who's the SG and who's the SF on those situations?... IT DOESN'T ING MATTER. They are both wings.

Maybe what you should be arguing is that a stretch 4 and a 2 aren't exchangeable and that could sometimes be true because even though I think guys like Anderson, Gay and Kawhi could play anywhere from 2 to stretch 4 (which is just another way of saying that they can defend any of the opposing wings and not be a liability), I don't think Bertans, with his lack of lateral movement, could do the same. But since we won't ever play 3 wings together with the lack of lateral movement that Bertans has, this isn't a problem.

i gave you a list of all lineups the spurs have used all season. that was my evidence. there is no indication that the "wings" are interchangeable because we never saw Gay/Anderson playing as anything that could be interpreted as a 2. both of them ALWAYS played alongside a combination of at least 2 of Parker, Murray, Mills, Green, Manu, Paul.

if the roles of the wings were truly interchangeable, then you WOULDN'T have a the situation that you yourself described of the forbes/paul role being separate and distinct from the gay/anderson role. by your definition, both are "wings" and yet their roles are clearly defined and not interchangeable.

you keep saying anderson/gay could play the two but there hasn't been a single lineup all season where either has been on the floor as anything that could be interpreted as a 2

[spurraider21]

the only guys who have played the 2 and the 3 regularly have been manu and green

[DAF86]

i gave you a list of all lineups the spurs have used all season. that was my evidence. there is no indication that the "wings" are interchangeable because We never saw Gay/Anderson playing as anything that could be interpreted as a 2. Both of them ALWAYS played alongside a combination of at least 2 of Parker, Murray, Mills, Green, Manu, Paul.

if the roles of the wings were truly interchangeable, then you WOULDN'T have a the situation that you yourself described of the forbes/paul role being separate and distinct from the gay/anderson role. by your definition, both are "wings" and yet their roles are clearly defined and not interchangeable.

you keep saying anderson/gay could play the two but there hasn't been a single lineup all season where either has been on the floor as anything that could be interpreted as a 2

Why? Just because they have played alongside wings that are smaller than them? They are the two tallest wings on the whole roster, so it is impossible for them to play alongside taller wings that would help them fit into the retaded category of what cons utes a "shooting guard".

When I see Anderson or Gay as the pick and roll ball handlers at the top of the key, just like Manu has done for years, in what position should I place them? As SF, SG, PG?

And the difference between Paul/Forbes and Anderson/Gay is purely in terms of skillsets and physical attributes. It isn't a difference of "positions".

Anderson and Gay are kind of playmakers, so in offense they will get the ball on their hands. Forbes and Paul are more of spot up shooters (although Forbes has shown flashes of being a good enough scorer).

Then on defense, Gay and Anderson's height allows them to have more of an impact on that end of the floor and guard a wider variety of opponents.

Playing three small wings together would probably not be very effective, that's why it's smarter to split the minutes of Gay and Anderson. But that doesn't mean that a lineup containing both Anderdon and Gay wouldn't be effective, in fact probably the opposite.

Seriously now, do you think a lineup of Tony/Mills, Kawhi, Anderson, Gay and Aldridge would struggle playing together? Of course not.

[spurraider21]

Why? Just because they have played alongside wings that are smaller than them? They are the two tallest wings on the whole roster, so it is impossible for them to play alongside taller wings that would help them fit into the retaded category of what cons utes a "shooting guard".

When I see Anderson or Gay as the pick and roll ball handlers at the top of the key, just like Manu has done for years, in what position should I place them? As SF, SG, PG?

And the difference between Paul/Forbes and Anderson/Gay is purely in terms of skillsets and physical attributes. It isn't a difference of "positions".

Anderson and Gay are kind of playmakers, so in offense they will get the ball on their hands. Forbes and Paul are more of spot up shooters (although Forbes has shown flashes of being a good enough scorer).

Then on defense, Gay and Anderson's height allows them to have more of an impact on that end of the floor and guard a wider variety of opponents.

Playing three small wings together would probably not be very effective, that's why it's smarter to split the minutes of Gay and Anderson. But that doesn't mean that a lineup containing both Anderdon and Gay wouldn't be effective, in fact probably the opposite.

Seriously now, do you think a lineup of Tony/Mills, Kawhi, Anderson, Gay and Aldridge would struggle playing together? Of course not.

no, i dont think so. i think kawhi, like manu and danny, is capable of playing both wing spots, unlike gay and kyle. you can't pretend the height doesn't matter. its why we would on midget lineups with parker/mills/forbes

besides, what positions you and i think that certain players can play is irrelevant. pop plays certain people with certain lineups... and he doesnt play gay or anderson at the 2 at all

it's no mere coincidence that Bertans has seen his minutes go up because Rudy Gay is missing time, but doesn't see more minutes when Manu sits

[TD 21]

This is Pops problem though, everyone can up in a short stint, even the great Patty Mills. It's funny how you imply that everyone needs to be perfect for the first 5 minutes in order to earn a 16+ minute role. Couldn't be further from the truth. Pops problem is giving talented players like Bertans a short leash, but giving Patty and Parker a huge leash and sticking with them even if they're getting their teeth kicked in.

It amazes me how fans really assess a player because of a mistake a player makes after a 2 minute stint. Let the ing kid play.

This is the same crap that costed the Spurs in 2011 and 2012 because Pop always pulled a quick hook on Splitter for every single mistake, while he gave Blair and Bonner free reign while they the bed.

Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

He's just upset because he knows the only possible way Bertans could have a meaningful role on this team when healthy, is if he usurps his precious Anderson in the rotation.

[SAGirl]

He's just upset because he knows the only possible way Bertans could have a meaningful role on this team when healthy, is if he usurps his precious Anderson in the rotation.

Not sure about that frankly.

Also, Anderson is still going to play fwiw.

[Stabula]

Shooting guards have been traditionally more offensively skilled with more plays being run with them finishing the shot. In today's game position-based basketball is starting to become irrelevant as players have become much more well-rounded.

[SAGirl]

Shooting guards have been traditionally more offensively skilled with more plays being run with them finishing the shot. In today's game position-based basketball is starting to become irrelevant as players have become much more well-rounded.

specially in the Spurs system.. as Manu4tres pointed out somewhere.

The designation is more I think for scorekeeping, charts, etc... it's useful in context. But in terms of saying someone cannot play the 2 who already plays the 3, it doesn't mean anything for the Spurs.

Rudy especially has played a lot as big bc the Spurs need him there. Kyle has played a lot more as wing. The times he's played as big has really been some of the games Pop rests guys. They need him to play as a big. Same as the times Davis has played as a C. When you have 8 guards and only 1 good center, guys are going to have to slide all the way in positions, specially your taller and better rebounding forwards.

[TheDoctor]

Poor man’s Austin Daye tbh

[DAF86]

no, i dont think so. i think kawhi, like manu and danny, is capable of playing both wing spots, unlike gay and kyle. you can't pretend the height doesn't matter. its why we would on midget lineups with parker/mills/forbes

besides, what positions you and i think that certain players can play is irrelevant. pop plays certain people with certain lineups... and he doesnt play gay or anderson at the 2 at all

it's no mere coincidence that Bertans has seen his minutes go up because Rudy Gay is missing time, but doesn't see more minutes when Manu sits

Except he has played Anderson at the 2. At least if you go by what the "oficial" records say.

So let me get this straight, you think Gay and Anderdon can play the 3, but can't play the two? Tell me what is the difference between those two positions that makes it possible for them to play the 3 but not the 2? And don't evade the question saying what Pop does or does not do. I'm asking YOU. What is the difference between the 2 and the 3 that makes it possible for players like Gay and Anderson to play one but impossible to play the other?

[spurraider21]

Except he has played Anderson at the 2. At least if you go by what the "oficial" records say.

So let me get this straight, you think Gay and Anderdon can play the 3, but can't play the two? Tell me what is the difference between those two positions that makes it possible for them to play the 3 but not the 2? And don't evade the question saying what Pop does or does not do. I'm asking YOU. What is the difference between the 2 and the 3 that makes it possible for players like Gay and Anderson to play one but impossible to play the other?

its a matchup issue. 2's are generally matched up against smaller, quicker perimeter players. its the same way we couldn't really tell the difference between Center and PF with Tim... but now you look at Gasol and he's clearly not a 4 anymore. there isn't really a definition of what a 2 does, as different players do it differently. michael redd played very differently than d-wade. both were 2's.

what pop does or does not do is extremely relevant to my primary point that bertans wasn't getting minutes because gay/anderson were occupying the role that bertans would otherwise play in, and that cutting minutes to forbes wouldn't open up minutes for bertans. that is directly related to what pop would or would not do... instead of a philosophical argument about what a 2 and 3 is

[DAF86]

But you did get into that philosophical argument and you still aren't able to give me one good argument about why the 2 and the 3 are different.

[Seventyniner]

I don't think Bertans is better than "prime" Bonner at all. Bonner was much better at banging in the paint and getting rebounds (10.4 TRB% vs 7.5% for Bertans), shot better from three (0.413 career for Bonner, 0.401 for Bertans), and turned the ball over 1/3 less (7.0% TOV for Bonner, 10.4% for Bertans).