Djpounte Murray flaws need a lot of work

[wildbill2u]

i wouldn't use the analogy of a deer caught in the headlights for murray because that suggests fear and that is a quality that murray does not have. i would, instead, suggest that he is more like a yearling in that he just seems clumsy sometimes and lacking in "corporate knowledge", all fixable traits.

Neither the Barkley quote nor my comments had anything to do with Murray acting like a "deer in the headlights'" as I understand the term. Murray doesn't freeze on the floor. Quite the opposite. He is active and athletic, moreso than anyone on the roster. But that really isn't the question I raised.

I see a young man with very limited BB IQ so he will be learning the ropes of a PG that he should have learned by staying in college. He can defend and rebound. His ball handling is terrible for a PG who will have to handle the ball, direct the offense and make crucial passes. HIs passing stinks, especially when he gets himself in trouble by trying to do the one thing that probably made him a star in high school--driving into the lane.


while I also question whether his outside shooting is up to NBA standards, Kwahi has showed us that shooting can be unbelievably improved by hard work, repetion to the point where muscle memory takes over. Gervin used to shoot 500 balls a day in practice and I bet Kwahi has taken that lesson to heart. Folks used to really criticize Parker for a weak outside shot and he worked to develop a better shot late in his career and became a decent short and 3 range shooter. So I'm willing to give him a lot of slack if he is putting in the work to develop his outside shooting.

Got to thinking while writing the above and right now, I'd like to put Simmons on the floor before Murray because Simmons is a more developed player.

[TD 21]

If a player is to become one of significance, no matter how raw they are, I'm a big believer in seeing early glimpses and we've seen some of those in his case. But between the extremely loose handle and the non existent jump shot, I can't remember a PG like this being successful and the fact that he's shown no improvement in either area 16 months after being drafted doesn't inspire confidence.

Smart, Carter-Williams, Dunn, Mudiay, Payton, Exum, are all recent examples of hyped PG's who struggled in at least one of these areas (all were at least willing jump shooters though) and right now Payton is the only starter and he's a low end one at that.

His play making is better than advertised, but he doesn't have the vision of Wall, Rubio or Rondo. He's athletic, but not to the extent of Westbrook, Wall or pre injuries Rose, so what is he? And does it make sense to spend a good portion of Leonard's prime and the remainder of Aldridge's, finding out? Worse yet, does the lack of so much as a competent starting PG become the impetus for Leonard not re-signing?

[wildbill2u]

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

some excellent points, especially the effect of the team dependence on his development during the prime Kwahi years. And the prospect that the lack of a competent PG (if he doesn't develop as hoped) might lead Kwahi to leave is really scary.

[dabom]

Kawhi leaving.

[SAGirl]

All good points TD 21. Sharp comments.

I will say this, though I know the diehard fans like duncan2k5 and manybe some others will not grasp it. If he was really awesome, he would have taken that starting spot when he got the opportunity and ran away with it. He only had to beat a guy who was injured coming back at 35 who said he would do anything Pop wanted him to, and Patty, who is a shooter and not a playmaker in the traditional sense or PnR ballhandler who can finish in the paint... just not his game. Bryn Forbes is not that guy either. It was really weak compe ion for him to take that spot and hold on to it.

Once upon a time, Tony arrived in what I hear from reference, was a weak guard rotation. He took the spot and ran away with it. Once upon a time, Kawhi did the same with a forward rotation.

This season he really had the opportunity. It wasn't denied to him. He started games and as you said the inability to shoot is the most problematic, and on top of that the Spurs are a post oriented slow paced team, so that gets exposed all the time.

Right now, he's very well suited to the bench crew which plays faster and more to his strengths. One can only hope he continues to improve and add things. Certainly if he stays as he is, it's just not enough.

[duncan2k5]

Watching Murray play a lot of minutes against OKC gave him an opportunity to display his game, flaws and all. He reminds me of a quote I heard Sir Charles Barkley say about young athletes with no particular skill sets, "
0



"They run like deer, jump like deer and think like deer. But if you notice, not many deer play in the NBA for long" — Charles Barkley.

Once when Murray was bringing the ball up the court, he looked like an impala, bounding way up in the air several feet off the ground and carrying his dribble up as high as his head. I remembered Barkley's quote and thought, "What the is he doing way up there and what will he do with the ball." What was he thinking? But it was illustrative of something I've been commenting on since the first day we got a look at him. He dribbles the ball really really high, liking to take off on a drive with the ball up near his shoulder. The problem with that in the NBA is that guys are simply stripping him or stealing the ball a lot. Or he loses control once he gets into the paint with bodies all around trying to get that ball from him. You never saw Parker with that trouble. It was amazing how Tony could slither in among all those bigs and still get a shot off.

Most of his points come off those drives and he hasn't really developed his outside shooting. He sometimes still shoots from outside with that funny motion that gives a sideways rotation to the ball. Can't stick in this league with that form. One airball three from the end of the game was horribly off target with no excuse of anyone being near him to affect his shot. Calling Chip!

PGs really need to pass to the open man in the short corner 3 spot at the end of close games. Tried to hero ball it with a drive a time or two into crowds without noticing his team mates. Granted it takes a while, but he still thinks of himself as the prime shooter when he is in the game. He hasn't earned that yet IMO>

SO THE QUESTION IS THIS : MURRAY SHOWS FLASHES OF ATHLETICISM LIKE A DEER, BUT IS MURRAY THE PG FOR THE FUTURE?

completely disagree with him thinking he is the prime shooter...HE BARELY TAKES SHOTS! dude is really passive...parker is an example of a shoot first pg...thats who murray needs to be more like...he needs to watch film of how aggressive young parker was going to the rim...murray kinda just brings up the ball and passes it around the perimeter...tony knows the system so he looks better running the offense...murray doesnt have that experience yet...give it time...

on another note, we are bashing murray because he isnt as good as a HOF level PG...come on now...what rookie/2nd year PG is better than young parker?

thirdly parker had his own issues...no player is perfect (except kawhi)

[skulls138]

Being physically gifted like that can make a person rely on it too much and a seasoned player can exploit that. Hes got to keep on believing, be patient and learn.

[duncan2k5]

All good points TD 21. Sharp comments.

I will say this, though I know the diehard fans like duncan2k5 and manybe some others will not grasp it. If he was really awesome, he would have taken that starting spot when he got the opportunity and ran away with it. He only had to beat a guy who was injured coming back at 35 who said he would do anything Pop wanted him to, and Patty, who is a shooter and not a playmaker in the traditional sense or PnR ballhandler who can finish in the paint... just not his game. Bryn Forbes is not that guy either. It was really weak compe ion for him to take that spot and hold on to it.

Once upon a time, Tony arrived in what I hear from reference, was a weak guard rotation. He took the spot and ran away with it. Once upon a time, Kawhi did the same with a forward rotation.

This season he really had the opportunity. It wasn't denied to him. He started games and as you said the inability to shoot is the most problematic, and on top of that the Spurs are a post oriented slow paced team, so that gets exposed all the time.

Right now, he's very well suited to the bench crew which plays faster and more to his strengths. One can only hope he continues to improve and add things. Certainly if he stays as he is, it's just not enough.

he was playing well until Pop decided Patty would be better vs golden state...murray never recovered...combine that with murray still having a very short leash, he stopped being aggressive like he was at the start of the season...hold murray to the same standard as kyle...kyle himself said him starting and not being yanked for every mistake this season is what helped him to improve...murray is younger...why do ppl think he doesnt get affected by these things?

[wildbill2u]

Kawhi leaving.

If Tim Duncan could think of leaving the Spurs after winning Championships and a great relationship with team mates and coach, then any player such as Kwahi might look for greener pastures if no championship is in sight for the rest of his career in SA.

[dabom]

If Tim Duncan could think of leaving the Spurs after winning Championships and a great relationship with team mates and coach, then any player such as Kwahi might look for greener pastures if no championship is in sight for the rest of his career in SA.

Every player is not the same got.

[Ocotillo]

All good points TD 21.
Right now, he's very well suited to the bench crew which plays faster and more to his strengths. One can only hope he continues to improve and add things. Certainly if he stays as he is, it's just not enough.

If he can get a semi-decent shot and better handles, I had thought he was more of a Manu replacement as 6th man rather than the next point guard. With pre-injury Tony sticking around, I thought that was where they were headed with him although I had high hopes because of his length that he could be the next starting point guard.

[John B]

Seems obvious to me that he focused on putting on muscle, improving his defense, and rebounding. He needs work on his shot and understanding of the offense but PG is the most complicated position to learn in the NBA. He has made noticeable improvements.

But with Kawhi able to play point forward, I think lock-on defense is the first thing Murray needs to develop that could be most valuable to the team against Curry, Westbrook and CP3 who TP could have difficulty guarding. Murray/Green/Kawhi/Gay/LMA. There should be enough scoring there without expecting too much offense from Murray but maybe to knock those open 3’s. And with Gay, and the development of Green’s ball handling should help. I think continue to develop great defense, lock-on defender helps the Spurs the most.

[BackHome]

He is not a PG just make him a SG and be done with it. This summer just work on side three and fake pump and take it to the rim and play good defense. Done

[skulls138]

SG an S? Not good.

[Ice009]

All Murray needs is confidence in his jump shot. It's that simple. If he can start shooting with confidence and hitting shots, that'll unlock his game to higher levels.

[SpursforSix]

All Murray needs is confidence in his jump shot. It's that simple. If he can start shooting with confidence and hitting shots, that'll unlock his game to higher levels.

I wish that was true. I'm as guilty as anyone in throwing false hopes on Spurs draft picks. Thinking that PATFO pulled a fast one and found a diamond in the rough. And that they're all on the verge of being relevant. But imo, that's not Murray. Should have recognized it sooner. There aren't very many players than all of a sudden become great ball handlers after a couple of years in the NBA. The comparisons to Parker are ridiculous. He had elite skills when he was picked up. Just needed to work on incorporating them into the NBA game. That's not Murray.

So in my mind, he'll never be a good point guard option. And at this point, to the eye, he looks like a pretty average SG.

He has some flashes here and there but so do most NBA 1st round picks.

To sum it up, I think he can have a decent career in the NBA but he's nothing special.

[wildbill2u]

All Murray needs is confidence in his jump shot. It's that simple. If he can start shooting with confidence and hitting shots, that'll unlock his game to higher levels.

If all it took was confidence, I would have been an NBA player.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Watching Murray play a lot of minutes against OKC gave him an opportunity to display his game, flaws and all. He reminds me of a quote I heard Sir Charles Barkley say about young athletes with no particular skill sets, "
0



"They run like deer, jump like deer and think like deer. But if you notice, not many deer play in the NBA for long" — Charles Barkley.

Once when Murray was bringing the ball up the court, he looked like an impala, bounding way up in the air several feet off the ground and carrying his dribble up as high as his head. I remembered Barkley's quote and thought, "What the is he doing way up there and what will he do with the ball." What was he thinking? But it was illustrative of something I've been commenting on since the first day we got a look at him. He dribbles the ball really really high, liking to take off on a drive with the ball up near his shoulder. The problem with that in the NBA is that guys are simply stripping him or stealing the ball a lot. Or he loses control once he gets into the paint with bodies all around trying to get that ball from him. You never saw Parker with that trouble. It was amazing how Tony could slither in among all those bigs and still get a shot off.

Most of his points come off those drives and he hasn't really developed his outside shooting. He sometimes still shoots from outside with that funny motion that gives a sideways rotation to the ball. Can't stick in this league with that form. One airball three from the end of the game was horribly off target with no excuse of anyone being near him to affect his shot. Calling Chip!

PGs really need to pass to the open man in the short corner 3 spot at the end of close games. Tried to hero ball it with a drive a time or two into crowds without noticing his team mates. Granted it takes a while, but he still thinks of himself as the prime shooter when he is in the game. He hasn't earned that yet IMO>

SO THE QUESTION IS THIS : MURRAY SHOWS FLASHES OF ATHLETICISM LIKE A DEER, BUT IS MURRAY THE PG FOR THE FUTURE?

Murray definitely needs to develop his game. He has the natural skillset to be great, but right now his shot is terrible and he can't run the offense to save his life. I had similar takeaways from the OKC game...I love the kid's natural ability, but he needs to really hone his game if he's going to be great.

But his ceiling is limitless...if he can adopt the Kawhi work ethic he can be great. I'm concerned he's not capable of matching that sort of discipline level in order to get better...but time will tell. I'd love to see him in the ASG in 3 years due to him working his arse off and reaching his potential.

[tonight...you]

If all it took was confidence, I would have been an NBA player.

Believe dat.

[tonight...you]

Murray definitely needs to develop his game. He has the natural skillset to be great, but right now his shot is terrible and he can't run the offense to save his life. I had similar takeaways from the OKC game...I love the kid's natural ability, but he needs to really hone his game if he's going to be great.

But his ceiling is limitless...if he can adopt the Kawhi work ethic he can be great. I'm concerned he's not capable of matching that sort of discipline level in order to get better...but time will tell. I'd love to see him in the ASG in 3 years due to him working his arse off and reaching his potential.

He appears to have Kawhi's work ethic.
What he needs is a Chad Forcier, getting on him about the relevant things like he did with Kawhi.

That man needs to live in Chip's house through the whole off-season along with a host of other things, but that shot has to improve first and foremost.

[tholdren]

He appears to have Kawhi's work ethic.
What he needs is a Chad Forcier, getting on him about the relevant things like he did with Kawhi.

That man needs to live in Chip's house through the whole off-season along with a host of other things, but that shot has to improve first and foremost.

It wont fix stupid

[tonight...you]

It wont fix stupid

Stupid is hard to fix, this is true, but discipline and repeated experience of one's limitations can drive even a stupid person onto a successful path.
Let's just say I have hope, but I'm not placing any money on such things coming to fruition, but this is what we have and there are traits in him that bring things such as hope.

Who thought Kawhi was going to be a Top 5 player in the NBA until after watching him progress beyond what most thought he could reach?

That's work ethic and discipline along with God gifted... stuff.

[dabom]

Stupid is hard to fix, this is true, but discipline and repeated experience of one's limitations can drive even a stupid person onto a successful path.
Let's just day I have hope, but I'm not placing any money on such things coming to fruition, but this is what we have and there are traits in him that bring things such as hope.

Who thought Kawhi was going to be a Top 5 player in the NBA until after watching him progress beyond what most thought he could reach?

That's work ethic and discipline along with God gifted... stuff.

DM ain't stupid. Don't argue that lame.

[tonight...you]

DM ain't stupid. Don't argue that lame.

I only argued the point, not the person and I believe my argument was cogent and correct, although not without exceptions.

[tholdren]

DM ain't stupid. Don't argue that lame.

Lol dumb as a rock. Takes terrible shots, cant dribble, cant initiate offense. Poor mans version of roberson