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  1. #1
    Believe. Spurtacular's Avatar
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    That's the impression I got from watching the Lakers game. I know it's not a big enough sample size but still. And the team was definitely balling much better with Murray out there than Mills. I've said a lot that on the road he is just the generally better option for various reasons. Also, BP3 is crap (until further notice).

  2. #2
    Satanic Point Guard Stabula's Avatar
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    Murray missed quite a few easy shots but he was a million times better than Mills. I think he was our 2nd leading rebounder

  3. #3
    Come back Kawhi! Fireball's Avatar
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    I am fine with Murray missing some easy ones ... Westbrook was the same early in his career. When Murray does not turn over the ball, his impact should surpass that of a Mills, Paul, etc.
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  4. #4
    MANU! BillMc's Avatar
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    Neither Mills or Murray can run the offense at all. But Murray at least is young and their's hope. If Patty isn't hitting his shots he is useless.

    White needs more playing time even if it as the expense of Mills or even Murray. Let's at least see what he can do.
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  5. #5
    You have no idea UZER's Avatar
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    Sad that Parker is in year 30 of his NBA career and still the only guy that can run Pops system.

    PATFO did not make it a priority to find a Tony replacement until it was too late. It's not like people didn't see this coming.

  6. #6
    Veteran MaNu4Tres's Avatar
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    Sad that Parker is in year 30 of his NBA career and still the only guy that can run Pops system.

    PATFO did not make it a priority to find a Tony replacement until it was too late. It's not like people didn't see this coming.
    This is overstated asnd vastly overrated.

    Parker doesn't run the offense, everyone does. Parker carries very little gravity with how the offense operates.
    Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 1 Week Ago at 10:12 AM.

  7. #7
    Less is More
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    Neither Mills or Murray can run the offense at all. But Murray at least is young and their's hope. If Patty isn't hitting his shots he is useless.

    White needs more playing time even if it as the expense of Mills or even Murray. Let's at least see what he can do.
    This. Murray had a good game from a stats standpoint, but many posters talk about his d, and he was destroyed by ball. Spurs just do not have an intelligent, passing pg on the team.

  8. #8
    The St. Croix Boy duncan2k5's Avatar
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    This. Murray had a good game from a stats standpoint, but many posters talk about his d, and he was destroyed by ball. Spurs just do not have an intelligent, passing pg on the team.
    destroyed by ball? where were u when the guy was shown to have the best defensive metrics so far in the season a week ago? every great defender gets scored on now and then...and he adjusted...what exactly did . ball do in the second half? and if ball scored on murray (hitting mostly threes), imagine what he would do to a tony parker, who is vastly inferior defensively
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  9. #9
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Neither Mills or Murray can run the offense at all. But Murray at least is young and their's hope. If Patty isn't hitting his shots he is useless.

    White needs more playing time even if it as the expense of Mills or even Murray. Let's at least see what he can do.
    I thought the same with regards to White.

    On the dark depressing side of things for the team, things don’t look good for the team right now. It’s still midseason but at the same time, the reality is that it is already past midseason. They are still relying way too much on the 40 year old guard. There’s a chance Tony isn’t healthy for the playoffs. His body has been breaking down. That’s nothing new to Pop.

    If they aren’t fully healthy they will have an early and disappointing ending to their season anyways but Pop at least can develop young players, specially if the game is going south.

    He should never play Bryn, Mills, Manu. Never.

    As well as Bryn was scoring that group is still too small and were a negative overall every single time. They hemorrhage points.

    If Bryn is the one having a good game offensively play Bryn with Manu and a bigger perimeter player. He clearly doesn’t want Bryn to take Mills spot when it really should be warranted.
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  10. #10
    Less is More
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    destroyed by ball? where were u when the guy was shown to have the best defensive metrics so far in the season a week ago? every great defender gets scored on now and then...and he adjusted...what exactly did . ball do in the second half? and if ball scored on murray (hitting mostly threes), imagine what he would do to a tony parker, who is vastly inferior defensively
    Murray is terrible. Use your eyes

  11. #11
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    All 4 are pretty crappy TBH. You're basically saying the AMC Gremlin>Ford Pinto.

  12. #12
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    murray's flaws on offense have been too glaring to trust for any extended minutes. his only source of scoring is wide open layups or ridiculous low % floaters... when he gets lucky and makes a few in a row his stats end up looking nice, but more often than not he misses them and has a 2-7 night or something

    he cant shoot and cant finish in traffic
    Last edited by spurraider21; 1 Week Ago at 03:50 PM.

  13. #13
    Believe. south side spur's Avatar
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    All 4 are pretty crappy TBH. You're basically saying the AMC Gremlin>Ford Pinto.
    White has played in 1/4 of the games Mills, Murray and Forbes have played in and gets 1/3 of their minutes at most. Yeah sounds valid to throw him in with the others.

  14. #14
    Hear The L Train A Comin' cd021's Avatar
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    White playing over Paul should've happened already, he looks good in limited minutes and Pop is starting to get him spot minutes here and there so that should hopefully lead to more minutes this season for him.

    Mills game compliments Manu's much more than Murray's; we've the non-shooting PG playing off the bench with Manu before, teams eventually start sagging and clogging up the lane (Cojo). Murray brings something relatively unique to the team; he can defend, an excellent rebounding and pushes tempo once grabbing said rebound. His lack of shooting hasn't been much of an issue but his struggles to finish at the rim is. When he gets out in transition, he is excellent, but that rarely happens. He tries to finish across his body sometimes using finger rolls and even when he goes for an actual layup he struggles to adjust to contact and the ball often rims out because he shoots while in midair with his body unbalanced. That'll come with time; body control should improve as he gets stronger.
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  15. #15
    one for the thumb phxspurfan's Avatar
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    White has played in 1/4 of the games Mills, Murray and Forbes have played in and gets 1/3 of their minutes at most. Yeah sounds valid to throw him in with the others.
    Yeah I think we have a large enough sample size to tell at this point what 3 of the 4 will bring:

    Murray: pros - some 1-on-1 offense (floaters/layups), some defense (steals) cons - suspect shooting, suspect offense running, some turnovers
    Mills: pros - great shooting when he's hot/off ball spot ups, some offense running, knowledge of The System, FT% cons - sometimes can't run offense well, lack of size for defense/gets beat often
    Forbes: pros - higher percentage shooter, clutch, some skill to get buckets in 1-on-1 cons - small defensive matchup vs. most NBA SGs, FT%, can't really run offense

    White: not sure at this point. From his college tapes he looks like a smaller James Anderson type. A tad slow but can get some buckets. Ran his college team so probably ok with the ball in his hands


    BP3: pros - not sure at this point, average defense, average size (sadly much better than the rest of the guards besides Murray/Manu) cons - doesn't seem to know the offense/seems to get lost out there, doesn't play big (I think he's about Westbrook's size but doesn't play big like Russ)
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  16. #16
    Lab Animal Capt Bringdown's Avatar
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    Sad that Parker is in year 30 of his NBA career and still the only guy that can run Pops system.

    PATFO did not make it a priority to find a Tony replacement until it was too late. It's not like people didn't see this coming.
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  17. #17
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    White playing over Paul should've happened already, he looks good in limited minutes and Pop is starting to get him spot minutes here and there so that should hopefully lead to more minutes this season for him.

    Mills game compliments Manu's much more than Murray's; we've the non-shooting PG playing off the bench with Manu before, teams eventually start sagging and clogging up the lane (Cojo). Murray brings something relatively unique to the team; he can defend, an excellent rebounding and pushes tempo once grabbing said rebound. His lack of shooting hasn't been much of an issue but his struggles to finish at the rim is. When he gets out in transition, he is excellent, but that rarely happens. He tries to finish across his body sometimes using finger rolls and even when he goes for an actual layup he struggles to adjust to contact and the ball often rims out because he shoots while in midair with his body unbalanced. That'll come with time; body control should improve as he gets stronger.
    I don't really disagree with your last paragraph, but it's tough to find a spot for Murray when he's literally one of the worst offensive PGs in the entire league..he's just way too much of a liability on a team that already struggles to create quality looks..

  18. #18
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    murray's minutes should probably come alongside forbes. the mills/forbes stuff is nonsense defensively and they're kinda redundant on O

    but even then, as i said above, the kid cant be trusted with regular rotation minutes with his limitations

  19. #19
    half man half amazing
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    Murray is by far the Spurs' best defender at the 1 spot. Playing with 4 shooters like he did most of last night is good enough to make up for his offensive shortcomings. The fact that the Spurs outscored the Lakers while he was in the game is sufficient evidence of this point.
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  20. #20
    Veteran MaNu4Tres's Avatar
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    Murray is by far the Spurs' best defender at the 1 spot. Playing with 4 shooters like he did most of last night is good enough to make up for his offensive shortcomings. The fact that the Spurs outscored the Lakers while he was in the game is sufficient evidence of this point.
    Not just this, but in the grand scheme of things, Murray has the best +/- out of all the PGs on the team -- including Tony. So even if he has some inconsistency on offense (tied to his inability to shoot), he makes up for it in many other ways. The gravity of the "other ways" is enough for the Spurs to be better when he's on the floor vs. Mills and Tony.

    Murray actually grades out of as the 2nd best PG in the NBA defensively.

  21. #21
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    murray's flaws on offense have been too glaring to trust for any extended minutes. his only source of scoring is wide open layups or ridiculous low % floaters... when he gets lucky and makes a few in a row his stats end up looking nice, but more often than not he misses them and has a 2-7 night or something

    he cant shoot and cant finish in traffic
    his rebound numbers are also misleading for a fan who just boxscores games and doesn't watch them. Sometimes he's been known to try to tip his own misses 2 or 3 times, ending up with a misleading number of offensive rebounds. Some defensive rebounds are just snatched while a big could also have gotten it. Still not to take away from the fact he's aggressive as a rebounder, but it's not necessarily something that is making a difference.

    I agree that his inability to shoot is detrimental. It hurts in a post offense, his defender can roam around and help on others, help on cutters, get on the post player's lap, jump passing lanes etc. He's limited offensively right now. He does play with such energy and is able to make some defensive plays, which other guards in the team currently don't do.

  22. #22
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    I don't really disagree with your last paragraph, but it's tough to find a spot for Murray when he's literally one of the worst offensive PGs in the entire league..he's just way too much of a liability on a team that already struggles to create quality looks..
    agreed... it's unfortunate bc the team needs better guard play desperately... he's too behind offensively at this point.

    Not like it's news. We saw this in summer league. He has actually been better... but still not good enough.

  23. #23
    Veteran MaNu4Tres's Avatar
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    agreed... it's unfortunate bc the team needs better guard play desperately... he's too behind offensively at this point.

    Not like it's news. We saw this in summer league. He has actually been better... but still not good enough.
    Its also sad that no matter how " bad" he is offensively, he's still making a bigger impact than the two point guards who are getting paid 26 million this year.

    People don't realize that when he's on the floor, Spurs get out in transition more because of the deflections, steals and activity he creates on defensive end. That helps the Spurs get out in transition more and get easier opportunities than what the half court offense produces.

    Great defense creates easier opportunities on offense.

    Bad defense, makes putting up points harder because they are facing a set defense more often than not.

  24. #24
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Its also sad that no matter how " bad" he is offensively, he's still making a bigger impact than the two point guards who are getting paid 26 million this year.
    I agree with that too.

    and it is something than when Kiwi comes up asking for supermax (remember that old entertaining argument?) should be brought up. You aren't going to tell him he's not going to get a supermax bc you have to pay these dudes.

    Team shouldn't have contracts of that nature at this point. Either the players are pulling in value or they need to get OUT.

    That said... Kawhi's durability is a real question mark....

  25. #25
    Veteran MaNu4Tres's Avatar
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    Spurs need to work on being elite at something.

    That can be defense with the right personnel (trading away Patty, minimizing Parkers' role) and going with more athletic, longer line ups.

    They won't be able to beat the best teams if it becomes a battle of the half court game because of how heavily dependent they are at 40% post ups, ISOs and very poor PnR play.

    They need to optimize their chances at getting stops and getting out in transition as much as possible. That's going to give them the best chance to beat the best teams.

    And even though Spurs rank 2nd in the NBA in defense -- that's overall. That's not when Patty and Parker are on the floor. Luckily, Parker has been out of the lineups a lot and Mills has been so bad that Pop can't give him more than 25 minutes even when Parker is out.

  26. #26
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Spurs need to work on being elite at something.

    That can be defense with the right personnel (trading away Patty, minimizing Parkers' role).

    They won't be able to beat the best teams if it becomes a battle of the half court game because of how heavily dependent they are at 40% post ups, ISOs and very poor PnR play.

    They need to optimize their chances at getting stops and getting out in transition as much as possible. That's going to give them the best chance to beat the best teams.
    They weren't built to play that way playing 2 "slow" bigs tbh.

    I kind of feel Murray plays better with the bench crew despite all the arguments about crowding Manu's passing lanes or what not bc Manu likes to push the pace and he's a gambler himself... which hurts at times, but he also keeps a unit alive that way, which is otherwise poor defensively and has been for some time. they are definitely more free flowing.

    But that is beside the point, even though they struggled, the starters really didn't lose this game, but the bench. Spurs need to do something there. The bench this year hasn't been as good as previous years. They are obviously affected by injuries too, and guys starting right now that should be bolstering the bench play.. but they have all sorts of issues right now with the bench.

  27. #27
    Veteran MaNu4Tres's Avatar
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    They weren't built to play that way playing 2 "slow" bigs tbh.

    I kind of feel Murray plays better with the bench crew despite all the arguments about crowding Manu's passing lanes or what not bc Manu likes to push the pace and he's a gambler himself... which hurts at times, but he also keeps a unit alive that way, which is otherwise poor defensively and has been for some time. they are definitely more free flowing.

    But that is beside the point, even though they struggled, the starters really didn't lose this game, but the bench. Spurs need to do something there. The bench this year hasn't been as good as previous years. They are obviously affected by injuries too, and guys starting right now that should be bolstering the bench play.. but they have all sorts of issues right now with the bench.
    Spurs get by playing 2 " slow" bigs when it doesn't really count. But when it counts, they can't play that style. If Pop didn't make that adjustment against the Rockets, Spurs would have lost in 5 games. Spurs will have to make that adjustment again if they want to win any games against the Rockets or Warriors.

    I think the bench is fine, I just think Pop is utilizing it the wrong way with dumbass rotations and lineups.

    Pop goes to midget ball too often in the back court which kills the defense. At the same time, midget ball gives the opposition a huge edge physically when Spurs are on offense, as the opposition gets to easily knock Patty or Forbes off their paths working around screens, or working off V cuts to get open on the wing. The opposition has an easier time getting their hands in passing lanes and kill the Spurs in transition for easy points because they are stronger and longer physically. It's bully ball on the perimeter.

    This is why I hate the idea of playing Murray and Forbes at the 2 next to Patty. Forbes and Murray have an advantage when they are not playing against bigger guys and it works out a lot better for the Spurs.

  28. #28
    Believe. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Spurs get by playing 2 " slow" bigs when it doesn't really count. But when it counts, they can't play that style. If Pop didn't make that adjustment against the Rockets, Spurs would have lost in 5 games. Spurs will have to make that adjustment again if they want to win any games against the Rockets or Warriors.

    I think the bench is fine, I just think Pop is utilizing it the wrong way with dumbass rotations and lineups.

    Pop goes to midget ball too often in the back court which kills the defense. At the same time, midget ball gives the opposition a huge edge physically when Spurs are on offense, as the opposition gets to easily knock Patty or Forbes off their paths working around screens, or working off V cuts to get open on the wing. The opposition has an easier time getting their hands in passing lanes and kill the Spurs in transition for easy points because they are stronger and longer physically. It's bully ball on the perimeter.

    This is why I hate the idea of playing Murray and Forbes at the 2 next to Patty. Forbes and Murray have an advantage when they are not playing against bigger guys and it works out a lot better for the Spurs.
    I agree with you... good observations. I hate midget ball too. I have become critical of Bryn and it's not his fault. He's playing well. Pop does him a disservice playing him next to Patty and letting them both get bullied. Even Manu cannot save a pairing that small and deficient defensively. I have been missing Danny Green a lot. I have had enough of these munchkin wing combos. They lost the Utah game going midget ball. They looked very bad similarly against the Pistons.

    Pop isn't not going to bench Patty when Patty deserves a benching bottom line. I am not sure Pop is going to make changes that he needs to make. I am quite dispirited about this season. I don't think Tony will make a difference on what we are seeing either. They almost lost the sacramento game (another awful lottery team that had the Spurs on the ropes). One could say they don't pull that off in the end if it wasn't for Tony getting benched. Kyle made key defensive plays and steals down the stretch and grabbed rebounds, Davis was huge too obviously... probably his best game of the season (Mills was just basically there, and Tony was bad)... Murray had a good game from the bench.

    I hope Pop really examines what he has and how he can optimize his players. I am not sure they will be fully healthy this season. I am with you in feeling dispirited about their outlook:"the year of bad fortune." I am not optimistic about Rudy either tbqh with you. I am not sure his body is going to hold up. I hope to be wrong. I think the team is in danger of wearing Manu out like they did in 2015.

  29. #29
    one for the thumb phxspurfan's Avatar
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    Spurs need to work on being elite at something.

    That can be defense with the right personnel (trading away Patty, minimizing Parkers' role) and going with more athletic, longer line ups.

    They won't be able to beat the best teams if it becomes a battle of the half court game because of how heavily dependent they are at 40% post ups, ISOs and very poor PnR play.

    They need to optimize their chances at getting stops and getting out in transition as much as possible. That's going to give them the best chance to beat the best teams.

    And even though Spurs rank 2nd in the NBA in defense -- that's overall. That's not when Patty and Parker are on the floor. Luckily, Parker has been out of the lineups a lot and Mills has been so bad that Pop can't give him more than 25 minutes even when Parker is out.
    Or, what theyre likely to do is nothing, flame out in the 2nd round, and recoup some of the 50/80 Mills they spent via playoff game revenue and call it a wash. Then maybe look to trade in the offseason. The Holting Pattern (tm)

  30. #30
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    Lol this thread shoud be shit>poop

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