What gifts / rigging / game throwing will be given the Pats this SuperBowl?

[spurraider21]

The Clement play we need a view that shows one second prior to this above clip. This above clip leaves out Clement step #1. Instead it shows steps 2 and 3.
My technomological skills suck or I would post.
Freeze this YouTube below at the :29-30 second mark and you will clearly see possession and step one.
Same thing by freezing :39-40. Same time frame of play just different angle.

the question with the clement play is if he "lost" control around the 1:07 mark when he shifted the ball. i dont think he did.

[Fabbs]

the question with the clement play is if he "lost" control around the 1:07 mark when he shifted the ball. i dont think he did.

Moot point.
Reread my posts and watch video. That was between steps 2 and 3.
Not 1 and 2.

As soon as Clement catches the ball obverse where left leg/foot are.
That is step #1 with possession.

[spurraider21]

Moot point.
Reread my posts and watch video. That was between steps 2 and 3.
Not 1 and 2.

As soon as Clement catches the ball obverse where left leg/foot are.
That is step #1 with possession.

yeah, but this is one of the "while going to the ground" plays, so its NOT just 2 steps + possession = catch

[Fabbs]

yeah, but this is one of the "while going to the ground" plays, so its NOT just 2 steps + possession = catch

Are you ting me?
You mean on step 2 it is not instant touchdown?
Because all the transferring of ball and falling down occurred after Step 2.

Fark the NFL rules committee is a bunch of anal retent re s.

[spurraider21]

Are you ting me?
You mean on step 2 it is not instant touchdown?
Because all the transferring of ball and falling down occurred after Step 2.

Fark the NFL rules committee is a bunch of anal retent re s.

step 2 is not an automatic touchdown if the catch is made while the player is in the process of going to the ground

[Fabbs]

step 2 is not an automatic touchdown if the catch is made while the player is in the process of going to the ground

Well then to me it is automatic touchdown.
As soon as his right foot hits (2nd step) he is not yet "going to the ground".
It is the shove by Flowers immediately after this second foot (right foot) is planted that said shove begins Clements going to the ground.
Too late Flowers, touchdown!

[Avante]

No need to nit pick, the Eagles were without question the better team out there.....yesterday. AND....they had their second string QB, so that trumps...no Butler.

All this...was that a catch, was this and that and....... all that.

I do think the benching of Butler was totally stupid and didn't help matters any. BUT....all this is part of the game.

[blizz]

step 2 is not an automatic touchdown if the catch is made while the player is in the process of going to the ground

Exactly. Which was my point. Only a runner can score a TD with possession once he is in the end zone. A receiver must have made a catch with total control and possession and become a runner or maintain that possession to the ground and Clement did not.

[blizz]

Well then to me it is automatic touchdown.
As soon as his right foot hits (2nd step) he is not yet "going to the ground".
It is the shove by Flowers immediately after this second foot (right foot) is planted that said shove begins Clements going to the ground.
Too late Flowers, touchdown!

Nope. He must show possession and control all the way to the ground which he did not. You do not just get a td by catching it with two feet in bounds. Watch the Jumbotron td that was nullified. Now I will say this. I’m going by the (bull ) rules. What is and what is not a catch these days is such bull .

[blizz]

No need to nit pick, the Eagles were without question the better team out there.....yesterday. AND....they had their second string QB, so that trumps...no Butler.

All this...was that a catch, was this and that and....... all that.

I do think the benching of Butler was totally stupid and didn't help matters any. BUT....all this is part of the game.

When the difference is less than a td the. Yes nit picking is justified. Kinda like the difference between 18 ur old and 13 yd old.

[spurraider21]

Exactly. Which was my point. Only a runner can score a TD with possession once he is in the end zone. A receiver must have made a catch with total control and possession and become a runner or maintain that possession to the ground and Clement did not.

i dont think he ever lost control, though

[blizz]

He was clearly bobbling it after getting two feet in bounds and it bounces a little when he hits the ground. Collinsworth even said he would have called it incomplete.

[spurraider21]

He was clearly bobbling it after getting two feet in bounds and it bounces a little when he hits the ground. Collinsworth even said he would have called it incomplete.

good for collinsworth. he wanted to overturn both even though they both needed conclusive evidence to do so

i dont think he bobbled it. he just tucked the ball in. and while he was going down, he had control the whole way. the ball doesn't have to be motionless. just has to stay in his control

[blizz]

The ball at one point was floating in his arms. No part of his body touching it. C’mon. And ok so if that’s a TD then the other can’t be. Look at the call against Pittsburg. Look at the call against Dez. Look at the call against Megatron. Then look at the two the eagles got. There’s just no consistency. IMO they’re ALL catches but you can interpret each one differently.

[blizz]

And IMO he doesn’t have control when it’s moving, bobbling around while his other foot lands out of bounds.

[spurraider21]

And IMO he doesn’t have control when it’s moving, bobbling around while his other foot lands out of bounds.

he's got it tucked in his arm

[spurraider21]

And ok so if that’s a TD then the other can’t be.

it's not mutually exclusive. the clement catch is one where he is going to the ground. therefore he needs to maintain possession all the way through. i think he did, you don't. the ball doesn't have the be completely stationary to be "controlled."

the ertz play is NOT a play where he was going to the ground (in the process of making the catch). he got 2 feet, made a "football move" and then was tripped up by the defender after the process of the catch was completed

Look at the call against Pittsburg.

the play against pittsburgh is an easy call. james was going to the ground while making the catch. the ball came out.

Look at the call against Dez.

i did. look at my post on the previous page. i think the dez one is close, but at the moment his second foot hits the ground, he's pretty clearly in the process of going to the ground, so the "2 feet + football move" rule doesn't apply there.

Look at the call against Megatron.

i think the megatron call was one of the worst ever

Then look at the two the eagles got. There’s just no consistency. IMO they’re ALL catches but you can interpret each one differently.

i think the rule is ty, to be sure.

but you have to look at 2 different scenarios:

a) during the catch, the player is in the process of going to the ground. this is true in the clement, dez, james plays

b) the player completes the catch, and only then starts going to the ground (ertz play)

[spurraider21]

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.


Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.


with the Dez/James plays, they were going to the ground (james one clear as day, Dez one a bit less clear). by this rule, those were not catches. the clement play is a catch.

[spurraider21]

i will agree that the rule is far too convoluted, and they should ditch the "player going to the ground" shenanigans. this is how i think it should be:

make it possession + 2 feet (or 1 knee, elbow, butt, etc) + any "football move" = catch

if the player loses the ball afterwards while going down, its either down by contact or a fumble. if it's in the endzone, its a touchdown

[spurraider21]

i dont see how you look at these 2 plays and think they're the same thing... ertz establishes himself as a runner, whereas james was falling down from the moment he touched the ball

[blizz]

I agree with your last post. The Pittsburg one I can also agree with. The Dez one. He caught it. Turned and took some steps. Much like the Ertz td. It’s not in the rules on how many steps must be taken.

[blizz]

Good debate homes. I don’t have a dog in this race. I just wish the nfl would do away with all this bull . You catch it inbounds and that’s that.

[spurraider21]

I agree with your last post. The Pittsburg one I can also agree with. The Dez one. He caught it. Turned and took some steps. Much like the Ertz td. It’s not in the rules on how many steps must be taken.

compare for yourself. did Dez "remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner" ? i dont think so, but i agree this one is much closer than the james play. i think by the time his second foot hits the ground, he's stumbling and on his way down

[blizz]

I think he has control when he dives and made enough of a move to be a runner. IMO they start being runners when they come down with possession and two feet in bounds. That’s a catch to me.

[spurraider21]

i think thats fair. its definitely one of the more controversial calls in recent history for a reason. i think calvin's was the worst, though it didnt come in as big a spot